Buying a climatologist just ain't what it used to be

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destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Insulting me doesn't change the fact that:

"when the search for truth is confused with political advocacy, the pursuit of knowledge is reduced to the quest for power."

In my original post, I linked to a 1798 "World is going to end" theory.

A more recent "theoretical crisis" analogous to "Global Warming" was noted by Michael Crichton. Specifically, he wrote:

"This theory quickly draws support from leading scientists, politicians and celebrities around the world. Research is funded by distinguished philanthropies, and carried out at prestigious universities. The crisis is reported frequently in the media. The science is taught in college and high school classrooms."

... supporters included Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, and Winston Churchill. It was approved by Supreme Court justices Oliver Wendell Holmes and Louis Brandeis... Research was backed by the Carnegie and Rockefeller Foundations. ... important work was also done at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford and Johns Hopkins. ...

These efforts had the support of the National Academy of Sciences, the American Medical Association, and the National Research Council...

Those who opposed the theory were shouted down and called reactionary, blind to reality, or just plain ignorant. But in hindsight, what is surprising is that so few people objected.

Today, we know that this famous theory that gained so much support was actually pseudoscience."

From: Why Politicized Science is Dangerous


Mixing science with politics is a bad combination. It was bad when Malthus did it in 1798. It was bad when eugenics was introduced in the early 1900s. And its bad with Al Gore and Global Warming now.

Calling me, or other people that think differently than you, ignorant, doesn't change that.

Uno

Eugenics was hardly pseudoscience, except the politicized aspects.

Aspects of it are actually pretty damned real, but... Hitler kind of put a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

As a species, we must either commit to shades of eugenics or genetic manipulation/therapy. Not saying it's pretty or a discussion that's fit for a dinner party... certain facts of life are rather appalling.





As for Michael Crichton - lol. He was an intelligent man, and had quite a bit of scientific schooling. But he never had a lick of advanced schooling in Climatology or related atmospheric sciences.
He was well versed and stayed current as best as possible, and some of his arguments are definitely important.
But come on - I read State of Fear too (twice, actually). The bias and agenda in that book is ridiculous and laughable.
And actually, all the while arguing against "global warming", he certainly showcased the actual trends of global climate change. Fact is, some areas most certainly will get colder. There's no way to slice it - even if the a average temp of the world rises, some regions must grow colder as climate patterns shift.


Politicized science - yes, it's a dangerous animal and an affront to science itself. Some things are rather difficult to change, however, because science has always been debated at the national leadership level. It's either political leaders or religious leaders - one side of the coin is always aghast at what science brings up at some point. When you produce results that serve to go against "the current way of things", people get angry.
 

RPD

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
5,056
565
126
I'd just like to add all these "experts" can't even predict weather better than a coin, with their "super climate models", but we are expected to take their word about global warming as if it's fact?
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
I'd just like to add all these "experts" can't even predict weather better than a coin, with their "super climate models", but we are expected to take their word about global warming as if it's fact?

To some degree, long term statistical average climate prediction is a bit easier than day-to-day weather.

And the top local station in my town has some pretty damned accurate weather predictions. So...
 

Jaepheth

Platinum Member
Apr 29, 2006
2,572
25
91
A lot of humanity's problems could be solved by mass democide...

but people seem to want moral solutions to our problems.
 

RPD

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
5,056
565
126
To some degree, long term statistical average climate prediction is a bit easier than day-to-day weather.

And the top local station in my town has some pretty damned accurate weather predictions. So...
Sure if one lived in San Diego, I bet it's pretty accurate to predict the weather there (not saying you do).

I just think there's a lot more going on, a lot we don't know about or fully understand yet.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't be responsible, but I think we need a lot less fear mongering.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Sure if one lived in San Diego, I bet it's pretty accurate to predict the weather there (not saying you do).

I just think there's a lot more going on, a lot we don't know about or fully understand yet.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't be responsible, but I think we need a lot less fear mongering.

I live in NW Ohio.


Ohio's climate: there is no regular climate

Weather here seems to just do what it wants to do.
 

artvscommerce

Golden Member
Jul 27, 2010
1,143
17
81
I'd just like to add all these "experts" can't even predict weather better than a coin, with their "super climate models", but we are expected to take their word about global warming as if it's fact?

Your argument is really weak considering weather and climate are not the same thing.

On top of that, I live in Michigan where the weather is incredibly inconsistent, and the weather reports I read on a daily basis are incredibly accurate. What evidence have you seen that suggests predicting the weather is no different than flipping a coin?
 

drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,035
1
81
I don't think anyone will deny that the Earth has been warming for the last 10,000 years.

The cause is pretty irrelevant, as there's absolutely dick-all we can do about it, and we have no idea whether or not it'll make the planet better or worse.
 

Thebobo

Lifer
Jun 19, 2006
18,592
7,673
136
I don't think anyone will deny that the Earth has been warming for the last 10,000 years.

The cause is pretty irrelevant, as there's absolutely dick-all we can do about it, and we have no idea whether or not it'll make the planet better or worse.

 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
Or you could:

Insulate your house
Get a fuel-efficient car when the time comes to replace your current, and perhaps use the bike for short trips
Cut 10% off your meat consumption
Think in terms of power efficiency when buying electronics in the future
Make an effort to stop wasting power (turn off unneeded light, unplug unneeded gizmos, etc.)

If this became the norm, it would make a huge difference.

i'm sure if you looked at the numbers, it wouldn't even make a dent, thats the problem you see.
 

SillyOReilly

Golden Member
Aug 11, 2007
1,535
6
81
I agree that extraterrestrial settlement is somewhere in humanity's future, but for the foreseeable future we need to figure out how to stop being stupid and make this planet a better place to live.
Where are we going?
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
81
i'm sure if you looked at the numbers, it wouldn't even make a dent, thats the problem you see.

Do you mean a dent in the rate of climate change, or a dent in energy wasted and the rate of resource depletion?
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,907
12,376
126
www.anyf.ca
Global warming and climate change is real. But companies such as the oil industry and governments are too worried about continuously making more and more money. So we will never see the changes required to decrease or even reverse this issue.

We need to switch to 100% green power. That means all new cars and all new power plants, and change of life style. Never going to happen unfortunately.There would still be some pollution from manufacturing (chemicals melting and other processes etc) but the biggest issue is all the fossil fuel emissions.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
Science is so much easier if you start at the conclusion and work backward from there, though it can take some interesting marketing to ensure that reality, or at least the perception of it, falls in line with the conclusion.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
i'm sure if you looked at the numbers, it wouldn't even make a dent, thats the problem you see.

of course it would make a dent. seemingly simple adjustments like that when applied to corporate infrastructures (look at Wal-Mart's rather spectacular example) have not only saved the entity many many millions of dollars annually, but do significantly reduce waste output.

We have plenty of statistically significant examples of how large businesses that make such adjustments become far more efficient--imagine applying that to a much larger, nation-sized scale.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
Science is so much easier if you start at the conclusion and work backward from there, though it can take some interesting marketing to ensure that reality, or at least the perception of it, falls in line with the conclusion.

well, to be fair:

the assumption that science begins with a hypothesis is cooked up by people that don't do science.

 

KeithP

Diamond Member
Jun 15, 2000
5,660
198
106
Far more scientists have abandoned the idea of man made climate change then the other way around. I guess that is what makes this newsworthy? One finally went in the other direction?

-KeithP
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
142
106
Far more scientists have abandoned the idea of man made climate change then the other way around. I guess that is what makes this newsworthy? One finally went in the other direction?

-KeithP

You should have thrown a made up percentage in there, it would have been more believable that way.
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,531
2
81
Far more scientists have abandoned the idea of man made climate change then the other way around. I guess that is what makes this newsworthy? One finally went in the other direction?

-KeithP


I really hope this was being sarcastic....
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
Do you mean a dent in the rate of climate change, or a dent in energy wasted and the rate of resource depletion?

thats rarely the issue being discussed. and when it is they tend to pretend it makes a dent when it doesn't.

fact is without some break throughs in tech it just doesn't work in the end, all the carbon taxes and the rest are nonsense, theres science, and there are political and ideological solutions, the problem is when those claiming their political and ideological solutions are based on science when they are not, and unquestionable.
 

SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
13,357
7
81
I have the solution. Very simple.

Stop ALL modern industry and go back to the stone age.

Wait... That requires campfires. Darn it.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
I have the solution. Very simple.

Stop ALL modern industry and go back to the stone age.

Wait... That requires campfires. Darn it.

Climate change alarmists don't want all modern industry stopped, only to adjust it to suit their tastes. Global warming will be averted if SUVs are outlawed, we slap up some solar panels, build some $100 billion high speed trains between remote rural California towns, and "invest" lots of tax dollars in alternative energy research like Solyndra.
 
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