Buying a Stick Shift

[Throckmorton]

So what? The additional wear is minimal, so much so that I wouldn't even give it a second thought...or a first thought for that matter. You are putting FAR FAR FAR greater wear on your car just by driving it.

Have you measured the amount of wear put on the clutch for each downshift? If not, how do you know the additional wear is minimal?

Would you also say the wear from using the brakes to slow from 30mph to 0mph is minimal?

 

[NutBucket]

You all realize that in the end this has everything to do with how you drive and not the specific techniques used.

For example, my parents have over 100k on their Camry, original clutch AND brakes. I have over 70k on my Legacy, also with the original clutch AND brakes. Neither show any signs of needing replacement anytime soon.

In my opinion, any technique or method will work fine, just execute them properly.

And obviously, hill holding is bad no matter what. Pretty sure that's why my fiancee killed the clutch in her old Sentra by 60k. She's now stopped doing that and the clutch in her WRX shows no signs of weakness at 65k.

 

[jlee]

You all realize that in the end this has everything to do with how you drive and not the specific techniques used.

For example, my parents have over 100k on their Camry, original clutch AND brakes. I have over 70k on my Legacy, also with the original clutch AND brakes. Neither show any signs of needing replacement anytime soon.

In my opinion, any technique or method will work fine, just execute them properly.

And obviously, hill holding is bad no matter what. Pretty sure that's why my fiancee killed the clutch in her old Sentra by 60k. She's now stopped doing that and the clutch in her WRX shows no signs of weakness at 65k.

My Forester has an automatic hill-holding feature...I was like "WTF" until I remembered what it was. If you stop on an incline with the clutch depressed, foot on the brake, and then release the brake, it will hold the brakes automatically until you release the clutch. The brakes disengage just before the clutch starts to grab. I'm still not used to it, but it's a brilliant concept to make "non-drivers" more comfortable with a standard transmission.

 

[NutBucket]

Yeah, my dad is looking for a new car. He has looked at some Subarus as he remembers the hill-holder feature from the 80's. Stupid car salesmen these days can't even tell him if the cars still have it or not.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Have you measured the amount of wear put on the clutch for each downshift? If not, how do you know the additional wear is minimal?

Would you also say the wear from using the brakes to slow from 30mph to 0mph is minimal?

No, I would say you are comparing apples to oranges. Brakes use friction to slow a car down. The harder and faster you brake the more heat you put into the pads and rotors and the more wear you have.

The clutch uses friction to engage the engine and the transmission, if you are moving and rev match there is very little friction between the clutch plate and the flywheel. Think of it this way, you have two spinning discs, the flywheel which is attached to the crankshaft on the engine (this is always turning when the engine is running) and the clutch plate (which is attached to the transmission), if you press in the clutch pedal you have moved these two spinning disc apart and they are now free to spin at different speeds. Now say you change to a lower gear, the clutch plate is now spinning faster than the flywheel which is why you blip the throttle so that the flywheel is spinning at roughly the same speed as the clutch is. If they are spinning at the same rate when you let the clutch out there is no wear...maybe a bit on the clutch cable or the throwout bearing but again, this is minimal. Most of the wear on a clutch is done during acceleration from a stop. This is not up for debate, it is a fact.

Oh, and using the clutch to hill hold is really stupid. You want to wear out a clutch quickly then rest your foot on it all the time or use it to hill hold.

 

[BlackTigers]

Oh, and using the clutch to hill hold is really stupid. You want to wear out a clutch quickly then rest your foot on it all the time or use it to hill hold.

Resting my foot on my clutch isn't doing much to the clutch disc.

The throwout and the pressure plate, on the other hand...

 

[Throckmorton]

No, I would say you are comparing apples to oranges. Brakes use friction to slow a car down. The harder and faster you brake the more heat you put into the pads and rotors and the more wear you have.

The clutch uses friction to engage the engine and the transmission, if you are moving and rev match there is very little friction between the clutch plate and the flywheel. Think of it this way, you have two spinning discs, the flywheel which is attached to the crankshaft on the engine (this is always turning when the engine is running) and the clutch plate (which is attached to the transmission), if you press in the clutch pedal you have moved these two spinning disc apart and they are now free to spin at different speeds. Now say you change to a lower gear, the clutch plate is now spinning faster than the flywheel which is why you blip the throttle so that the flywheel is spinning at roughly the same speed as the clutch is. If they are spinning at the same rate when you let the clutch out there is no wear...maybe a bit on the clutch cable or the throwout bearing but again, this is minimal. Most of the wear on a clutch is done during acceleration from a stop. This is not up for debate, it is a fact.

Oh, and using the clutch to hill hold is really stupid. You want to wear out a clutch quickly then rest your foot on it all the time or use it to hill hold.

I know how downshifting works. What I'm saying is that you can never match it exactly, and there is no theoretical way to keep revs match throughout the clutch engagement. Otherwise you wouldn't be using the clutch.

 

[thedarkwolf]

I know how downshifting works. What I'm saying is that you can never match it exactly, and there is no theoretical way to keep revs match throughout the clutch engagement. Otherwise you wouldn't be using the clutch.

Well you don't HAVE to use the clutch at all other than starting off. That will keep your wear way down at least on the clutch .

 

[JulesMaximus]

I know how downshifting works. What I'm saying is that you can never match it exactly, and there is no theoretical way to keep revs match throughout the clutch engagement. Otherwise you wouldn't be using the clutch.

Well, as they say, practice makes perfect. Downshifting with a near perfect rev match is very rewarding. Here's a nice little vid on heel-toe shifting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPj9XXW25GA&feature=related

I've driven a car with a broken clutch cable once. It was the first car I ever owned and I had owned it for a year or so. I drove to work and when I came out the clutch went to the floor and did nothing so rather than call a tow truck I started it in gear to get going and then rev matched to shift. Up shifting was easy, just get the engine speed matching the speed of the vehicle and ease the shift lever out of gear and then let the revs fall while pushing it into the next gear. No clutch wear there! Of course the starter motor takes a lot of abuse as do the gears if you get the engine speed wrong.

Honestly, you are worrying about something that is so minor it is almost insignificant. The clutch takes far more abuse from starting out than it does from downshifting if you get the revs close to where they should be. I'm pretty good at this and wouldn't hesitate to do it in any manual transmission car I've driven. I also do this all the time on my motorcycle, a vehicle that you really want to have in the correct gear for the corner and which is much more easily upset by sloppy downshifting.

 

[Throckmorton]

Well, as they say, practice makes perfect. Downshifting with a near perfect rev match is very rewarding. Here's a nice little vid on heel-toe shifting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPj9XXW25GA&feature=related

I've driven a car with a broken clutch cable once. It was the first car I ever owned and I had owned it for a year or so. I drove to work and when I came out the clutch went to the floor and did nothing so rather than call a tow truck I started it in gear to get going and then rev matched to shift. Up shifting was easy, just get the engine speed matching the speed of the vehicle and ease the shift lever out of gear and then let the revs fall while pushing it into the next gear. No clutch wear there! Of course the starter motor takes a lot of abuse as do the gears if you get the engine speed wrong.

Honestly, you are worrying about something that is so minor it is almost insignificant. The clutch takes far more abuse from starting out than it does from downshifting if you get the revs close to where they should be. I'm pretty good at this and wouldn't hesitate to do it in any manual transmission car I've driven. I also do this all the time on my motorcycle, a vehicle that you really want to have in the correct gear for the corner and which is much more easily upset by sloppy downshifting.

It may be insignificant but I'm just saying that no matter how close you are to perfection, you'll never do it perfectly so there is some wear on the clutch. I engine brake too, but only if in my mind the distance I'll have to brake is long enough that it's better than putting wear on the brakes.

 

[TwinsenTacquito]

I dont think i've ever driven an automatic that's ever done any of that. My DSG is butter smooth and shifts faster than you ever could dream of

Well the auto in my ex's accord shifted like a bag of bricks was hitting the car but that's a Honda auto so i'm not surprised.

You're either lying or mistaken. It's been 30 years since automatics were "decent".

Here we go, a guy who can't drive an AUTOMATIC.

Correct. It's a lot lot harder to drive an automatic and since it is also mechanically inferior, there's no point. Instead of just doing what I want to do and what makes sense, I have to think two steps ahead of a very bad computer that has no idea what I'm about to do. Your gearshifts are are about what you're ABOUT to do, not what you are presently doing. A computer only knows what you are presently doing. So you have to think about what your transmission computer is going to do so that you can do something incorrectly to trick it into doing what you want it to do. It's a lot harder than just putting the tranny in the correct gear.

I tried to think of a way to put it in terms of something else that is very simple. I figure a manual transmission is like walking up to a counter and picking up a glass of water. Whereas an automatic transmission is you walking up to a counter, and a very stupid man walks up right behind you, and you gently explain how you would like the stupid man to hand you the glass of water. So he has to reach around you and hand you the glass of water, even though you already did the work of walking up to the glass and putting your hand out to accept it. The difference is that with an automatic you have this perception that telling a computer to do something you could easily do yourself is easier than to just do it yourself.

Have fun with a stupid man spilling water on you. I'm sure it's easier that way.

How normal people drive
Picture this scenario: You're driving along a street and need to make a turn. You apply the brakes of the car to slow down. If the car is in gear, the rotational speed of the engine (the rpm) slows down as the engine is physically connected to the slowing drive wheels.

Let's say your car is in 4th gear at 50 mph and you slow down to 20 mph for the turn. After you've turned, 4th gear is no longer the suitable gear — its gearing is too "tall" and the car will probably bog down if you try to accelerate. At that speed, 2nd gear in most cars will probably have the best ratio for acceleration once you've finished making the turn.

Many people just drive around the corner with the clutch pedal depressed. Only after they complete the turn do they choose the proper gear and release the clutch pedal. It gets the job done, but no more than that.

Do like the racers do
The problem in the above example is that the car isn't primed for maximum acceleration. When going around the corner with the car's clutch pedal in, the driver has no ability to use the throttle.

Racecar drivers want complete control of their car at all times as well as the best opportunity to accelerate out of a turn. This is where the heel-toe downshift comes into play. It allows them to get any downshifts done and out of the way while braking. This way, a car is in the proper gear at all times.

On the street, the idea of quicker lap times is meaningless. But having a car in the right gear at all times is. Street driving is full of sudden or unpredictable events. If there's a situation where you've braked but then suddenly need to accelerate, the use of heel-toe would mean that your car is primed for max attack.

Taking a corner in too high of a gear (as you always do with an automatic) or with the clutch in will more importantly not put enough tension on the suspension which results in bad grip.

 

[Tristicus]

You are an idiot.

That is all.

 

[amdhunter]

I have nothing against automatics. I just love the connection between driver and car with a manual. It's very rare that I wish to have an automatic. Even in traffic, I don't get bothered much.

 

[punjabiplaya]

I have nothing against automatics. I just love the connection between driver and car with a manual. It's very rare that I wish to have an automatic. Even in traffic, I don't get bothered much.

Did 1.75 hours in pouring rain in stop-go traffic. Still wouldn't ever switch from the 6spd (not like I have a choice, but I mean to another car w/ auto/dsg/dct).

 

[KentState]

To the OP, I live north of Atlanta in Cumming and work both in Norcross and Midtown and typically drive my manual Corvette to work 5 days a week. My second car is an automatic, but I honestly don't even notice a difference anymore. I also think that the Camaro has hill start assist which is an added benefit.

 

[StageLeft]

To the OP, I live north of Atlanta in Cumming and work both in Norcross and Midtown and typically drive my manual Corvette to work 5 days a week. My second car is an automatic, but I honestly don't even notice a difference anymore. I also think that the Camaro has hill start assist which is an added benefit.

I'm sorry but you surely realize that the place you live has a terribly ridiculous name, right?

 

[PhoKingGuy]

I'm sorry but you surely realize that the place you live has a terribly ridiculous name, right?

rofl I just noticed that, I want a pic of that city sign.