Bye, Bye Tax Cut

jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,505
0
0
While I still think there will be some agreement at the margin on estate taxes, the so-called marriage penalty, and a couple other items (and would have been if Gore were elected too), the Fed's rate cut yesterday doomed Jr's plans for a large, across-the-board cut in tax rates.

Greenspan is on record as favoring the use of surpluses to reduce debt above all else, with tax cuts implemented only if politicians can't resist spending the surplus. Dubaya recently courted Uncle Al to come out in favor of tax cuts. But the Fed has undercut GWB by delivering a definitive message with its large, unanticipated rate cut that it will do all it can to prevent a recession. That gives Democrats the cover they need to fight Jr's tax cut head on with no fear of consequences.

All of us will continue to see the economic studies trotted out showing that fiscal policy is far less successful for directing the economy over the short and medium time frames versus the the Fed's ability to move the economy quickly by tightening or loosening monetary policy. Democrats will argue very effectively that any fiscal stimulus from a cut in tax rates would have no immediate benefit versus the speed at which the Fed can regulate the economy. So it is better to use fiscal policy for long-term benefit. They will argue that the economy will benefit to a far greater degree on a long-term basis (lower interest rates, greater incentive for companies to borrower for expansion, greater prosperity for all income classes) by using the surplus to reduce government debt.

The Republicans' claims that tax cuts are needed on top of Fed action will look pale by comparison, particularly since there are no economic studies to support these claims. And the Democrats will then resort to the "fairness" argument about the cuts benefitting the rich most of all. Republicans do a pretty bad job when they start trying to offer defenses on this issue.

Major tax cuts are dead. And Greenspan killed them. Bank on it.
 

Raspewtin

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 1999
3,634
0
0
jjm, very well reasoned and intelligent post. I agree with most of your statements, especially re: tax cut's relationship to the economy. However Greenspan was opposed to Bush's tax cut even before Bush got elected, so why would his unchanged stance be an issue now? Also, do you really think George W. is actually concerned with the large scale implementations of his tax cut? I personally doubt it, his main thing is to just pass it. Even with Republicans have approached re: the detrimental effects of the tax cut long run, he's said clearly that this was his major issue when he ran, and he feels many people voted for him b/c they want the tax cut, and that he intends to do what he has to do to pass it (He probably has the "Read My Lips" Daddy Bush episode etched a little too firmly in his brain). IMO there are several policies of Bush that illustrate his lack of long-range planning. Don't you think the Republican Senators/Congressman stand by him in the tax cut? I think they will. Thus I don't doubt that Bush's tax plan is not good for economy, I just think it will pass regardless.
 

Wedesdo

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2000
2,108
1
0
GOOD!

finally, George Bush's plan to kill out coutnry won't succeed! (and his oil buddies won't get richer)
 

thebestMAX

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2000
7,487
121
106
<< IMO there are several policies of Bush that illustrate his lack of long-range planning>>

Yup, unlike the clintons who had NO policies when they were surprised by being elected.
 

jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,505
0
0
Wow, you guys can get off topic fast, even in the Off Topic Forum!

Anyway....

thebestMAX and yakko - Whether or not you agree with the current tax system is another topic for discussion.

Back to the questions at hand: What are the chances of Jr getting the full tax cut program he promised? Hasn't the likelihood (which was already less than 50/50) been markedly diminished by the Fed's aggressive action and its stated shift in policy stance yesterday? How will Dubaya's forces be able to prevent a Senate filibuster? Remember, there are representatives and senators in Jr's own party who were not supportive of some portions of his plan. Other than wishful thinking, how do you see the full package getting passed?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81


<< What are the chances of Jr getting the full tax cut program he promised? >>

What are the chances of any elected official getting the full tax cut they promised? I figure Bush's chances will be about the same. Major tax cuts are campaign promises. (read: lies used to get votes)
 

Shuxclams

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
9,286
15
81
Using a projected &quot;budget surplus&quot; that also contains the SS fund is not a &quot;surplus&quot; at all, so any tax cut based on this is actually going to end up being a tax increase when the Goverment agian crys out to raise SS withholdings becuase SS is about to &quot;run out&quot;. Its all smoke and mirrors, Bober is right as well, lies for the sheep, say BAAAAAAAAA.







SHUX
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
7,218
1
0
Do you realize that GW's tax cut is only 1.8 billion a year? how does that paltry amount spread out amongst the masses and corporate america generate anything meaningful?

Smoke and mirrors
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
&quot;...the so-called marriage penalty, and a couple other items (and would have been if Gore were elected too)...&quot;
Where do you come up with that BS? Clinton vetoed marriage penalty tax relief TWICE! And yet, you say Gore would have gotten it for us? BULL!

GeorgeBush.Com Issues: Taxes
  • Governor Bush believes that roughly one-quarter of the surplus should be returned to the people who earned it through broad tax cuts ? otherwise, Washington will spend it. His plan will promote economic growth and increase access to the middle class by cutting high marginal rates. It will also double the child credit, eliminate the death tax, reduce the marriage penalty, and expand Education Savings Accounts and charitable deductions. The largest percentage cuts will go to the lowest income earners. As a result, 6 million families will no longer pay federal income tax.
    • A family of four making $35,000 will receive a $1,500 tax cut, a 100 percent reduction.
    • A family of four making $50,000 will receive a $2,000 tax cut, a 50 percent reduction.
    • A family of four making $75,000 will receive a $2,500 tax cut, a 25 percent reduction.
Congress may need to pass a larger tax cut than many Democrats have favored. - House Minority Leader, Richard Gephardt 12:42 PM Jan 3, 2001

This tax relief is absolutely crucial to maintaining our prosperity... - Dick Armey, House Majority Leader Dec. 30, 2000

Personally, I say go for it. The &quot;Fed's rate cut&quot; doesn't change the need or duty to keep that promise. Hell, if worse comes to worse, we cut some damn programs or Federal agencies starting with the NEA! Gosh, what a horrible trade off that would be. My tax relief at the expense of a do-nothing bureaucrat's job. Oh nooooooo
 

jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,505
0
0
Ornery - As I recall, Clinton vetoed the end of year measure citing reasons other than the marriage tax relief. I believe he prominently stated that if the measure included complete elimination of the estate tax, he would veto the bill. He argued that it was too costly and tilted heavily to the rich. He offered a compromise that would have raised the estate tax threshold so that many small businesses would have been exempt, but the Republican Congress pushed through a provision for complete repeal, so he vetoed the bill. Funny, but just this week, both parties were discussing a compromise similar to what Clinton suggested.

I still ask the question: How will Jr assure passage of his full plan in the face of what appears to be very long odds?

Today's Wall Street Journal (a die-hard Republican-leaning tome if ever there was one) noted in its story on page one that Greenspan's move likely blunted any chance of Dubaya succeeding with his tax cut proposals.

Bober - Yes, I am afraid all politicians will say anything to get elected. That does call into question Jr's assertions of his bringing higher honor and integrity to the office. Or, if he really believes he can get this done, then I suggest it calls into question his judgment and ability to compromise to achieve some goals of serving all the people.
 

mazdarx7

Junior Member
Dec 18, 2000
21
0
0
Please don't throw out that Greenspan's fed rate cut is the reason for &quot;W&quot; not delivering on what he campaigned with. It was beyond him in the first place. Prior to the election, Greenspan started raising the interest rates anyway, gas prices went up and everybody started looking at the current administration for not doing anything about it. Greenspan is the master of puppets here and we need to remove that senile rate hiker from his post. He's had too much power for far too long and he knows it.
 

Russ

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
21,093
3
0


<< Major tax cuts are dead. And Greenspan killed them. Bank on it. >>



The economy has already tanked. The rate cuts are six months too late. Bank on it.

Russ, NCNE
 

jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,505
0
0
Thanks for the one-liner, Russ, but I don't see that you added anything of value to this thread.

Now, would you care the answer the question originally posed? How will Jr get his $1.6 trillion tax cut plan passed? As recently as this week, he insisted that he was not considering any compromises. Was that just bluster?

Do you think Greenspan acted now in a direct effort to erase whatever tiny chance there was for Dubaya to succeed?

Off the main topic, I know you keep harping on the slowing economy by calling it a recession, but however you measure it, we are still not in a recession. However, as I stated before, I think the middle of this year might be a different story.

The reactions in the bond, stock, and currency markets these past two days indicate that investors now have shifted their expectations to the belief that the Fed can continue to engineer a slowdown without a recession. The markets are not always right, but as an apparent free-market advocate yourself, I am sure you would agree with putting more faith in the market's wisdom rather than that of the pundits. The computer industry is in a recession-like environment. Perhaps that colors you judgment.
 

jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,505
0
0
Okay, Total, but principle won't make it happen. Do you think Greenspan just gave the opponents of Jr's plan a lot of cover to resist it?

I am not suggesting that there will be nothing. I think there will be changes to reduce the so-called marriage penalty and some adjustments to estate tax rates and increases in retirement contribution rates, but all these will fall far short of the $1.6 trillion goal. And they begin to look a lot more like the Democrats' &quot;targeted tax cuts&quot; agenda.
 

Total Refected Power

Diamond Member
Oct 13, 1999
3,899
0
0
jjm:

I want a TAX cut. I don't believe that it will happen though. The Dems will enjoy the role of spoiler just as the Repubs did to Clinton.

I agree estate tax will be modified, marriage penalty reduced and some increases in 401k and IRA limits. Nothing revolutionary due to partisanship.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
I was opposed to any tax cuts because I'm a Democrat and that's what I'm supposed to think and I always toe the party line.

But then I saw a nice yellow triathlon bike and decided to switch parties. Devil in a yellow dress! I need that $2500 and I think you guys shouldn't mind if Uncle Sam gives it to me so I can kill myself doing 55 miles per hour down some hill on the Blue Ridge Parkway.

After all, Anand didn't send me a CL GTS Pro video card when I made elite. <sniff, sniff>

Gephardt is saying the Dems will support a modest targeted tax cut. (read: Rich guys need not apply)

We'll see.
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
I want my $2,500. Actually, I'll get far more. I want money!

Ok, here's my true feelings. Taxes are low when compared to many other places. I've felt that I've been on a tax holiday ever since I moved to the US.

I would like to see the marriage penalty eliminated and I would like to see changes in brackets to start taxing somewhat later (so that lower income people pay no tax).

I want Bush to push for the $1.6 trillion he promised to fight for and I want the Democrats to be held in the spotlight as they explain why they're not cutting taxes. I don't expect the cuts to happen and I hope that the debt keeps getting paid down and that the IOU to social security gets paid down as well.

Michael
 

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,513
49
91


<< read: rich guys need not apply >>



Typical Democrat. Just because someone's rich doesn't mean they don't work for their bucks. Doesn't mean they don't deserve a tax cut as much as the rest of us.

I made 36K this year. The government got about 12K of that. I wouldn't mind $2500 of MY money back at all.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
Glad to have ya here Michael! The European emigrants that I work with will NOT be happy until we start on a course toward the Socialism they left behind. Man, they complain that &quot;in Croatia, my wife got 6 months paid leave for maternity&quot;. And we always got 1 month paid vacation and only 8 hour work day with paid lunch supplied by the company yada yada. It makes no difference that their old country's economy is in the toilet thanks to these Socialist ways.

I honestly think our own Democrats aren't far different. Apparently a US citizen should be entitled to every damn thing you can think of. Oh, and not have to pay a dime for it. That, of course, is what &quot;the rich&quot; are here for!

BTW, would any of you Democrats care to tell me exactly where the cut off point for being &quot;rich&quot; is?

&quot;...As recently as this week, he insisted that he was not considering any compromises. Was that just bluster?&quot; NO! You got your friggen answer right from the horse's mouth. WTF else do you want? Does he have a chance of doing it? Ask your GD Democrat reps, not us.
 
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