BYU professor has theory about 9/11 attacks - news video

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Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
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Originally posted by: rahvin
Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
Hello CIA!
With time, testimonies, videos, and more and more engineers proving that bombs destroyed not only WTC7, but also 1&2, a new tactic of those who did 9/11 (and those trying to protect the powers that be from a revolution), started by Silverstein (WTC7? They decided to "pull it"), is to admit the existence of the bombs...but for very good motives...of course! What a joke! Silverstein bought the WTC during the summer of 2001, and one of Bush's brothers was on the board of the company which was in charge of the security of the WTC until 9/10. They planted the explosives during the summer of 2001 (very unusual number of evacuation exercises with security totally disabled for very long hours, granting them free access everywhere and time to plant the explosives). Noone would believe it was a coincidence, especially with the lies to start the war in Iraq very present in everyone's mind.

It's been shown more than once that the pull it statement was in refernece to pulling the firefighters from the building. Silverstein never bought the world trade center complex, they negotiated lease maagement rights from the port authority of new york who owned the buildings. The argument that because someone is on a board of directors suddenly has complete control of a company is rediculous, shows complete lack of understanding of corporate governance and is exactly the same tactic used to say the Jews control the US. There were no explosives, the buildings failure mode is well documented in not only the FEMA report but the ASCE investigation. But you're also the dumbass that tried to make the argument that a bunch of firefighters know more about the failure of a skyscrapper than Professional Engineers. Your a tool with paranoid delusions that has a predefined answer looking for all the idiotic "evidence" he can to support his delusion.

It has been shown more than once that the pull it statement was in reference to pulling the building.
Silverstein bought so many rights that he could claim billions of dollars from the insurance company.
A company with a Bush brother on board is a company noone should trust. The Bush family has been a criminal family from a very long time (Hitler...). A company with a Bush on board is a criminal company. Or CIA owned. That is the same.
Marvin Bush and Stratesec (formerly known as Securacom...they changed the name of the company...no it is not suspicious): << Marvin also was named to the Board of Directors of the Stratesec Company, another large publicly-traded firm. This company is very secretive and you can find virtually nothing about it. Their website does not allow entry to several links unless one has a password. Virginia-based Stratesec is a provider of high-tech security systems. Two of the major customers for which they provide security are the Dulles International Airport at Washington, D.C. and the Los Alamos National Laboratory. Stratesec's revenues recently went up by 60%, due to what the company describes as "new customers" Prominent people at Stratesec also include former Reagan operatives including Barry McDaniel and Air Force General James A. Abrahamson (who was involved in the Reagan "Star Wars" project). Stratesec is a company is heavily inter-related with the Kuwam Corporation ("Kuw" = Kuwait; "am" = America). Kuwam is a major Kuwaiti Company into many, many activities including the aircraft business. Stratesec's Chief Executive is also the Managing Director of Kuwam Corporation and Kuwam's Chairman Mishal Yousef Saud Al Sabah sits on Stratesec's Board of Directors. Stratesec is providing the primary security for one of the most sensitive airports in the world. Dulles in D.C., has a heavy middle eastern airline connection. >>
So we have connections to Kuwait here! Kuwait, the country that pumped Iraq's oil, and forced Iraq to reimburse all the loans immediately in 1990, moves dictated by Bush Sr., to force Saddam to invade Kuwait. Kuwait is a dictatorship. So the company Marvin Bush is working for cannot be trusted at all. Kuwait is a puppet. They obey to the Bush family and to the Pentagon.

The building collapse has not been well documented at all by this criminal administration and its puppets: they destroyed the evidence and shipped it to China as fast as possible. Only those who did 9/11 could have destroyed the evidence. I think logically.
You still haven't listened to the hero of 9/11: William Rodriguez. But you listen to the criminals in charge of this country.
http://www.prisonplanet.tv/audio/270605sept11show.mp3
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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I can't say one way or another whether the claims of this professor are true. I do believe that there are unanswered questions about 9/11 and I am almost certain that the government is hiding *something* or even a number of things.

I'll say something else though. I scoff at those who reject the 'conspiracy theories' out of hand based on their belief that big brother is benevolent. I believe that the higher up you go in government the more megalomania you will encounter. It is my belief that the people at the highest levels of government suffer from rather extreme cases of megalomania. They want your earnings, and they want to control you. They will use every means within their every growing power to attain those ends. They perceive the general public as mindless idiots who need to be dominated and controlled. They perceive themselves as being a part of a ruling elite which is ever attempting to become more and more like some kind of group of gods on Earth. These are facts that that require absolutely no conspiracy theory to understand. These people have always existed throughout history. It is not some new phenomenon. The only difference between now and a couple hundred years ago is several wars. The population has acquiesced and acquiesced to growing taxation and regulation giving the megalomaniacs more and more power.

That being said, I do not doubt for a second that there are people in the government who would not bat an eye at killing innocent civilians to enrich themselves and their cronies. To them the common man is something to be sacrificed for the good of themselves.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: Future Shock
Goodness gracious - I was as close to the WTC as you could get a few hours after they fell, and as has been noted here, they DIDN'T fall straight down...just mostly straight down. Plenty of debris and pieces went this way and that - including large, burning hunks of debris that went throught the walls of Building 7, which was a pre-positioned disaster center, fully stocked with several huge tanks of DIESEL FUEL for the site generators. Wanna bet why Building 7 fell??? It doesn't take bombs to explain that - the commentators were talking about the diesel fuel in Buiding 7 for hours before it fell...everyone knew it would go up if it caught fire.

You obviously didn't read the paper by the professor. The buildings for all intents and purposes fell onto their footprint. Of course there was debris going this way and that, the buildings are massive. Without a perfectly controlled demolition there would be debris going this way and that. And I don't think that it has been claimed that the demolition was absolutely perfect.

Once again, I urge you to read the professor's report. Even FEMA admitted that it was highly unlikely that the diesel fuel brought down building 7.

BTW - the WTC Towers has FANTASTIC security, especially after the previous bombing attempt. Do any of you have any idea how hard it would be to conceal the perfect placement of demolition charges large enough to actually take it straight down (if you believe that pancaking alone didn't do it?)?? A lot of large charges, evenly spaced around the circumfrence and/or core of BOTH buildings...and yet...the security cameras, watchmen, etc. didn't see ANY of that...nor did any of the passing public, and the buildings do have a lot of pedestrian traffic, even at night (I used to live in Battery Park City and use the subway station under the towers every day).

Once again you are completely ignorant of the facts.

From the other paper linked to from the professor's paper:

WTC Security: The suggestion that explosives might have been used raises the question of how anyone wanting to place explosives in the towers could have gotten through the security checks. This question brings us to a possibly relevant fact about a company---now called Stratesec but then called Securacom---that was in charge of security for the World Trade Center. From 1993 to 2000, during which Securacom installed a new security system, Marvin Bush, the president?s brother, was one of the company?s directors. And from 1999 until January of 2002, their cousin Wirt Walker III was the CEO (Burns, 2003).[57] One would think these facts should have made the evening news---or at least The 9/11 Commission Report.

These facts, in any case, may be relevant to some reports given by people who had worked in the World Trade Center. Some of them reportedly said that although in the weeks before 9/11 there had been a security alert that mandated the use of bomb-sniffing dogs, that alert was lifted five days before 9/11 (Taylor and Gardiner, 2001).

Also, a man named Scott Forbes, who worked for Fiduciary Trust---the company for which Kristen Breitweiser?s husband worked---has written:



On the weekend of [September 8-9, 2001], there was a ?power down? condition in . . . the south tower. This power down condition meant there was no electrical supply for approximately 36 hours from floor 50 up. . . . The reason given by the WTC for the power down was that cabling in the tower was being upgraded . . . . Of course without power there were no security cameras, no security locks on doors [while] many, many ?engineers? [were] coming in and out of the tower.[58]

Also, a man named Ben Fountain, who was a financial analyst with Fireman?s Fund in the south tower, was quoted in People Magazine as saying that during the weeks before 9/11, the towers were evacuated ?a number of times? (People Magazine, 2001).

There is no secret here, and no anomoly. The fire models don't adequately take into account that the fireproofing insulation was prone to peeling and deforming under stress, as you would expect the frame to be if it was hit by a large aircraft (it was already peeling BEFORE the impact, and had been re-applied in sections). And though the skin of the building may never have reached 2000 degrees, the towers needed the central core for support - and THAT likely well exceeded 2000 - and had lost most of it's fireproofing in the impact.

Wrong again. The fires didn't ever get to 2000 degrees.

I'm not saying that the professor's report is correct. I am still taking in all the information and weighing the evidence myself. But I really dislike it when someone starts spouting off their touchy feely personal experiences and stuff that they pull out of their butt to debunk someone else's theory. If you want to rationally attempt to debunk this theory use rational arguments and factual evidence.

 

Meuge

Banned
Nov 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
You obviously didn't read the paper by the professor. The buildings for all intents and purposes fell onto their footprint. Of course there was debris going this way and that, the buildings are massive. Without a perfectly controlled demolition there would be debris going this way and that. And I don't think that it has been claimed that the demolition was absolutely perfect.

http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/0305911-collapse-sm.jpg

If you look at the picture, you'll see that the top floors tilted to one side tremendously. However, because the skin of the building below held so much strength, the rest of the building essentially collapsed within the skin, "unzipping" as it went down.
Originally posted by: Dissipate

Wrong again. The fires didn't ever get to 2000 degrees.

I'm not saying that the professor's report is correct. I am still taking in all the information and weighing the evidence myself. But I really dislike it when someone starts spouting off their touchy feely personal experiences and stuff that they pull out of their butt to debunk someone else's theory. If you want to rationally attempt to debunk this theory use rational arguments and factual evidence.

While you have a lot of knowledge of conspiracy theories, you display a total lack of knowledge of even the most basic physics. You don't need to MELT metal to WEAKEN it. If anyone ever saw a blacksmith shaping a dull-red-hot piece of metal, they'd realize IT WASN'T MELTED!
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: Meuge
Originally posted by: Dissipate
You obviously didn't read the paper by the professor. The buildings for all intents and purposes fell onto their footprint. Of course there was debris going this way and that, the buildings are massive. Without a perfectly controlled demolition there would be debris going this way and that. And I don't think that it has been claimed that the demolition was absolutely perfect.

http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/0305911-collapse-sm.jpg

If you look at the picture, you'll see that the top floors tilted to one side tremendously. However, because the skin of the building below held so much strength, the rest of the building essentially collapsed within the skin, "unzipping" as it went down.

How could that have happened when the buildings collapsed as if they were in complete free fall, taking only 6.6 seconds to collapse? If the top of the building fell through the lower part of the building in a 'pancake' fashion, the lower floors would have created significant resistance, slowing down the collapse.

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Wrong again. The fires didn't ever get to 2000 degrees.

I'm not saying that the professor's report is correct. I am still taking in all the information and weighing the evidence myself. But I really dislike it when someone starts spouting off their touchy feely personal experiences and stuff that they pull out of their butt to debunk someone else's theory. If you want to rationally attempt to debunk this theory use rational arguments and factual evidence.

While you have a lot of knowledge of conspiracy theories, you display a total lack of knowledge of even the most basic physics. You don't need to MELT metal to WEAKEN it. If anyone ever saw a blacksmith shaping a dull-red-hot piece of metal, they'd realize IT WASN'T MELTED!

Well, good thing our good physics PROFESSOR at BYU has done his own analysis to refute the claims that the metal was hot enough to buckle. Text

 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Here is what I consider very suspicious about 9/11:

1. The twin towers and building 7 would have been the only 3 high rise steel buildings in the world to collapse due to fires. With building 7 being the most suspicious of all because it wasn't even hit by a plane.

2. According to this report the buildings exhibited eleven tell tale signs of controlled demolition.

3. It is a known fact that Marvin Bush (the president's brother) was a director of the security company for the WTC.

4. Days before the attacks bomb sniffing dogs were called off from the towers.

5. The power to the South Tower from the 50th floor on up was shut down for 36 hours days before the attacks, shutting down all the security.

6. If the hijackers had just waited hours and hijacked some different planes both towers would have had many thousands more people in them.

7. The percentage of the total capacity used of the planes that were hijacked was relatively low.

8. Mayor Willie Brown and other government officials were alerted not to fly the day of the attacks.

9. NORAD was conducting drills re-enacting a plane flying into the WTC prior to the attacks.

10. Mayor Giuliani made a statement indicating that he was told that building seven was going to collapse.

11. All the steel was completely removed from the scene of the collapses prohibiting any kind of independent investigation.

12. Silverstein the owner of building 7 took out a multi-billion dollar insurance policy on building 7 two months before the attacks. Silverstein went on PBS in 2002 and said:

I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, ?We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.? And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.

'Pull' is a word commonly used in demolition vernacular to mean: to cause a building to collapse. Later Silverstein made a statement saying that when he said 'pull' he meant get everyone out of the building. But if you read the above statements carefully, that doesn't make sense, especially the last statement.

I happen to be a very skeptical person, but there is some very suspicious stuff (these are just 12 of them) surrounding the 9/11 attacks that I seriously doubt the government has investigated very thoroughly.

Edit:

Added an eleventh and twelfth.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
How could that have happened when the buildings collapsed as if they were in complete free fall, taking only 6.6 seconds to collapse? If the top of the building fell through the lower part of the building in a 'pancake' fashion, the lower floors would have created significant resistance, slowing down the collapse.

There were millions of pounds of material moving, just like an ant or a small child isn't going to stop a moving vehicle the remaining structure of the towers wouldn't have had sufficient strength to even impede the movement. The amount of energe contained in the falling material would have been enough to pulverize the concrete below to dust without even slowing it down. There were trillions of joules of gravitational potential energy stored in the standing towers that was being expended while they fell.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Well, good thing our good physics PROFESSOR at BYU has done his own analysis to refute the claims that the metal was hot enough to buckle. Text

It's also a fact that the body of professionals that reviewed the collapse including the nations top structural designers, fire experts and forensic engineers disagree. Given the choice my preference is to trust the latter not a physics professor from a 3rd rate school that doesn't respect academic freedom.

Originally posted by: DissipateI'll say something else though. I scoff at those who reject the 'conspiracy theories' out of hand based on their belief that big brother is benevolent. I believe that the higher up you go in government the more megalomania you will encounter. It is my belief that the people at the highest levels of government suffer from rather extreme cases of megalomania.

You know what I scoff at? Those who give automatic credibility to those in the tinfoil hats. There is no point in even giving an ounce of credibility to some tinfoiler who is talking about material that they clearly and inherently don't understand. It is no different than listening to preachers discuss what science is. Like almost all conspiracy theories this revolves around a fundemental lack of understanding of any of the mechanics (or the science) involved. The tinfoilers in this forum have tried to argue that a firefighter would have more knowledge about the collapse of a high rise structure than experts in the field. It is an arguement so far beyond the bounds of reality and speaks volumes about the horrible shape our science education in this country is in.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: rahvin
Originally posted by: Dissipate
How could that have happened when the buildings collapsed as if they were in complete free fall, taking only 6.6 seconds to collapse? If the top of the building fell through the lower part of the building in a 'pancake' fashion, the lower floors would have created significant resistance, slowing down the collapse.

There were millions of pounds of material moving, just like an ant or a small child isn't going to stop a moving vehicle the remaining structure of the towers wouldn't have had sufficient strength to even impede the movement. The amount of energe contained in the falling material would have been enough to pulverize the concrete below to dust without even slowing it down. There were trillions of joules of gravitational potential energy stored in the standing towers that was being expended while they fell.

I think that multiple huge reinforced steel beams would have done something to slow down the collapse.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Well, good thing our good physics PROFESSOR at BYU has done his own analysis to refute the claims that the metal was hot enough to buckle. Text

It's also a fact that the body of professionals that reviewed the collapse including the nations top structural designers, fire experts and forensic engineers disagree. Given the choice my preference is to trust the latter not a physics professor from a 3rd rate school that doesn't respect academic freedom.

Yes, and they all worked on the government's report. The NIST report even says that they didn't even do any analysis after the point when the building started to collapse. Futhermore, it is highly likely that they immediately out of hand rejected any other theory than the fire-collapse theory, and merely concocted their report around that theory.

What in the heck does academic freedom have to do with any of this? The professor is saying stuff that a lot of people would probably find offensive. If anything he is putting his academic career on the line. I do not believe the physics involved in this is too advanced for even a physics professor from a 'third rate school.'


Originally posted by: DissipateI'll say something else though. I scoff at those who reject the 'conspiracy theories' out of hand based on their belief that big brother is benevolent. I believe that the higher up you go in government the more megalomania you will encounter. It is my belief that the people at the highest levels of government suffer from rather extreme cases of megalomania.

You know what I scoff at? Those who give automatic credibility to those in the tinfoil hats. There is no point in even giving an ounce of credibility to some tinfoiler who is talking about material that they clearly and inherently don't understand.

If this was a subject regarding some discipline way outside the professor's field of expertise, I would agree with you. But it just so happens that there is a lot of physics involved in this. I think it is somewhat safe to say that this professor is talking about material that he understands.

It is no different than listening to preachers discuss what science is. Like almost all conspiracy theories this revolves around a fundemental lack of understanding of any of the mechanics (or the science) involved.

The Al Qaeda theory is a conspiracy theory itself, is it not? We are to accept the government's conspiracy theory and reject all others that may be very credible?

The tinfoilers in this forum have tried to argue that a firefighter would have more knowledge about the collapse of a high rise structure than experts in the field.

Multiple firefighters reported that they heard and/or felt multiple explosions as they were leaving the building. Are we to ignore their testimony just because they are firefighters? Come off your ivory tower ego trip.

It is an arguement so far beyond the bounds of reality and speaks volumes about the horrible shape our science education in this country is in.

I didn't find any argument in the professor's paper, which happend to have been peer reviewed, that was far beyond the bounds of reality.

 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,062
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why would AG want them to fall straight down? Think if they had fallen to the side, how big a mess that would have been.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
I can't say one way or another whether the claims of this professor are true. I do believe that there are unanswered questions about 9/11 and I am almost certain that the government is hiding *something* or even a number of things.

I'll say something else though. I scoff at those who reject the 'conspiracy theories' out of hand based on their belief that big brother is benevolent.
...

Just a comment about the attitude of those of us who reject this sort of conspiracy nonsense...it's not about viewing big brother as benevolent. Well, it may be for some people, but the reason I (and a lot of people like me) reject this stuff is because it's stupid. My belief about government has nothing to do with it. If you have read my posts, you know I DON'T really trust the government to be good. But my beliefs, or your beliefs, or even the biggest conservative bootlicker's beliefs don't make the slightest bit of difference here.

The reason I reject these theories is becuase they don't make logical sense. What's the alternative theory about the Pentagon...that something other than an airliner (possibly a military plane or a missle) hit the Pentagon and then the government lied and said it WAS an airliner. Great, but why would they do that? Even if I accept that 9/11 was a government conspiracy, why do it that way? Why not fly an actual airliner into the Pentagon? Or why not do whatever they supposedly did and tell us the terrorists did it?

I will be the first person to admit that I don't think the government, especially our current President, can be totally trusted. And I'll be the first to suggest that we need to watch them to make sure they ARE doing the right thing. And I'll even admit that 9/11 didn't have to have happened the way the official story tells it. But that doesn't mean I'm going to buy whatever half-ass BS is being sold as "what really happened". It's an emotional reaction on the part of whoever believes, because they HAVE to believe it.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Dissipate
I can't say one way or another whether the claims of this professor are true. I do believe that there are unanswered questions about 9/11 and I am almost certain that the government is hiding *something* or even a number of things.

I'll say something else though. I scoff at those who reject the 'conspiracy theories' out of hand based on their belief that big brother is benevolent.
...

Just a comment about the attitude of those of us who reject this sort of conspiracy nonsense...it's not about viewing big brother as benevolent. Well, it may be for some people, but the reason I (and a lot of people like me) reject this stuff is because it's stupid.

How is it stupid? We aren't supposed to question the whisking away of the evidence from the crime scene? We aren't supposed to question Silverstein taking out a multi-billion dollar insurance policy before the collapse? We aren't supposed to question the no less than 11 indicators of a controlled demolition?

You may think these questions are 'stupid' but I don't. I think these are serious issues that need to be addressed in a full scale independent investigation.


My belief about government has nothing to do with it. If you have read my posts, you know I DON'T really trust the government to be good.

I've read your posts. You are an advocate of 'egalitarian' social democratic socialist government policies. If you don't believe government is 'good' why do you want the government to enforce egalitarianism? Egalitarianism is a 'good hearted' attempt to create a 'more equitable' society. This is hardly something that one would want a not-so-good entity to carry out.

But my beliefs, or your beliefs, or even the biggest conservative bootlicker's beliefs don't make the slightest bit of difference here.

How is that? Obviously someone who has been taught that the government is 'good' and has all these 'checks and balances' is going to be a lot more pre-disposed to reject government conspiracy theories out of hand. Telling these people that 9/11 was a staged event to usher in the new war on terrorism is like telling them that their parents have betrayed them.

The reason I reject these theories is becuase they don't make logical sense. What's the alternative theory about the Pentagon...that something other than an airliner (possibly a military plane or a missle) hit the Pentagon and then the government lied and said it WAS an airliner. Great, but why would they do that? Even if I accept that 9/11 was a government conspiracy, why do it that way? Why not fly an actual airliner into the Pentagon? Or why not do whatever they supposedly did and tell us the terrorists did it?

Who is talking about the Pentagon? That is a different issue. The professor's paper doesn't even mention the Pentagon. We are talking about the WTC here.

I will be the first person to admit that I don't think the government, especially our current President, can be totally trusted. And I'll be the first to suggest that we need to watch them to make sure they ARE doing the right thing.

As far as I am concerned the president should be considered a suspect. 'Watching' him would be the lowest form of interrogation. Would you support a full interrogation of the president and his staff conducted by independent interrogation and lie detector experts? I do. I would also conduct a full interrogation on Silverstein, the NYC fire chiefs, Giuliani and a number of their staff members.

And I'll even admit that 9/11 didn't have to have happened the way the official story tells it. But that doesn't mean I'm going to buy whatever half-ass BS is being sold as "what really happened". It's an emotional reaction on the part of whoever believes, because they HAVE to believe it.

I doubt you have read the papers. These are not 'half assed' reports. The professor's paper has been peer reviewed and is going to be published in a peer reviewed journal in 2006.

 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
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ostif.org
Originally posted by: morkinva
Here check out The North Tower's Dust Cloud by Hoffman, another guy to be entered into the penguin nut file - but you probably won't bother to read it anyway

Conclusion

The amount of energy required to expand the North Tower's dust cloud was many times the entire potential energy of the tower's elevated mass due to gravity. The over 10-fold disparity between the most conservative estimate and the gravitational energy is not easily dismissed as reflecting uncertainties in quantitative assessments.

The official explanation that the Twin Tower collapses were gravity-driven events appears insufficient to account for the documented energy flows.

Yeah, cubic miles of air being forced out of a small area in seconds certainly wouldnt create a massive dust cloud. :thumbsdown:

Im so sick of these threads.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
I think that multiple huge reinforced steel beams would have done something to slow down the collapse.

That is why you aren't responsible for these designs and why your opinion on the matter doesn't mean anything.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Yes, and they all worked on the government's report.

And how exactly is that even relevant? The government published the report yes, the people who worked on the report were independent experts in their fields.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
The NIST report even says that they didn't even do any analysis after the point when the building started to collapse.

And? Exactly what is the value in such an anlaysis in your un-expert opnion?

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Futhermore, it is highly likely that they immediately out of hand rejected any other theory than the fire-collapse theory, and merely concocted their report around that theory.

You don't know what you are talking about. They presented the most probable method of collapse and given the reports technical merits and included data I concur with their conclusions that it was essentially the only logical method of failure.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
What in the heck does academic freedom have to do with any of this? The professor is saying stuff that a lot of people would probably find offensive. If anything he is putting his academic career on the line. I do not believe the physics involved in this is too advanced for even a physics professor from a 'third rate school.'

He's a nutjob, I've met many professors like him in my career. Academic positions tend to draw people that are emotionally unstable and insecure and it breeds behavior that could be called tinfoil hat syndrome. Couple this with an academic environment that discourages independent thought (at the loss of their teaching positions) and you have not only an environment conducive towards this type of idiocy but professors who fit the role. And just so you understand, BYU has a research department devoted to proving that native american's are _direct_ decendents of the jews and are one of the 10 tribes.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
If this was a subject regarding some discipline way outside the professor's field of expertise, I would agree with you. But it just so happens that there is a lot of physics involved in this. I think it is somewhat safe to say that this professor is talking about material that he understands.

Although he has the basis of understanding he knows about as much about building design as you do.

It is no different than listening to preachers discuss what science is. Like almost all conspiracy theories this revolves around a fundemental lack of understanding of any of the mechanics (or the science) involved.

Originally posted by: DissipateThe Al Qaeda theory is a conspiracy theory itself, is it not? We are to accept the government's conspiracy theory and reject all others that may be very credible?

And what exactly does that have to do with the failure of the building?

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Multiple firefighters reported that they heard and/or felt multiple explosions as they were leaving the building. Are we to ignore their testimony just because they are firefighters? Come off your ivory tower ego trip.

Witness testimony, especially at times of crisis is notoriously false. The premise that explosives were detonated is on par with beliving in the easter bunny.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
I didn't find any argument in the professor's paper, which happend to have been peer reviewed, that was far beyond the bounds of reality.

And another perfect example of your science education. It wasn't peer reviewed, and even if it had been that doesn't mean it's right.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
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Originally posted by: rahvin

That is why you aren't responsible for these designs and why your opinion on the matter doesn't mean anything.

And yours does? There are experts who have said that it is extremely unlikely that the towers collapsed due to just fires, including demolition experts who have testified to the fact that the building collapses looked just like expertly planned demolitions.

And how exactly is that even relevant? The government published the report yes, the people who worked on the report were independent experts in their fields.

And they all worked on the NIST report with the fire-collapse theory as the only theory in mind. The NIST report talks about all these supposed 'computer models' they did. Let's see the computer models and if they are even realistic.

And? Exactly what is the value in such an anlaysis in your un-expert opnion?

The fact that there is tons of tell tale evidence of a controlled demolition during the actual collapse of the building. But the NIST report completely excludes all of that by conveniently avoiding analysis of the events that occured during the collapse.

You don't know what you are talking about. They presented the most probable method of collapse and given the reports technical merits and included data I concur with their conclusions that it was essentially the only logical method of failure.

No, they went in with the fire-collapse theory and they came out with the fire-collapse theory. Fortunately, this professor and others have completely eviscerated that report. They didn't go in there with: fire-collapse theory/controlled demolition theory. They went in there with fire-collapse theory and went straight on to figure out how the fire-collapse occurred.

He's a nutjob, I've met many professors like him in my career. Academic positions tend to draw people that are emotionally unstable and insecure and it breeds behavior that could be called tinfoil hat syndrome.

I think a lot of professors do have tin foil hats. That much is true. This professor does not seem to have any of that. He seems to me to be someone who is doing an honest investigation. I didn't see anything in his paper or any indication during his interview on MSNBC that indicated that he was a 'nutjob.'

Couple this with an academic environment that discourages independent thought (at the loss of their teaching positions) and you have not only an environment conducive towards this type of idiocy but professors who fit the role. And just so you understand, BYU has a research department devoted to proving that native american's are _direct_ decendents of the jews and are one of the 10 tribes.

Show me a single university that doesn't have some nutjobs somewhere. My university (UCSD) is loaded with nutjob radical leftwingers all over campus in the humanities and social sciences. Does that mean that I should completely reject everything I learn in the physics department? Get real. There is a huge difference between the physical sciences and the social sciences.

Although he has the basis of understanding he knows about as much about building design as you do.

Building design is not the only thing at play here. The laws of physics play a huge role in the collapse of a building. As the professor has stated in his paper, the collapse, if it were to be caused by a fire would have violated the second law of thermodynamics.

It is no different than listening to preachers discuss what science is. Like almost all conspiracy theories this revolves around a fundemental lack of understanding of any of the mechanics (or the science) involved.

Right, because I guess a physicist can't know anything about melting points of steel, momentum or inertia. :roll:

And what exactly does that have to do with the failure of the building?

Nothing. All I am saying is that the government itself has been propagandizing a conspiracy theory. This is a conspiracy theory that many have shown to be inconsistent and far fetched. For instance, as I said before, why didn't the hijackers wait until later in the day to hijack the plans when the buildings would have had tens of thousands of people in them and not just a few thousand?

Witness testimony, especially at times of crisis is notoriously false. The premise that explosives were detonated is on par with beliving in the easter bunny.

The idea that three buildings could all collapse in perfect symmetry due to fires when no steel building in the history of buildings had ever collapsed due to a fire sounds more like easter bunny material to me.

And another perfect example of your science education. It wasn't peer reviewed, and even if it had been that doesn't mean it's right.

The professor gave a presentation to 60 structural engineers, physicists and other engineers. All 60 of them said that the NIST report was inconclusive and a full scale independent investigation should take place. And that is just the people he could get at that location. Other experts have come forward and said that the NIST report is full of inconsistencies and outright bogus analysis. They want samples of the steel from the towers. Where is it? Why did the government get rid of it so quickly?

I posted 12 suspicious facts surrounding the attacks above. Instead of repeating tin foil hat, tin foil hat, tin foil hat, why don't you try answering some of those questions?

You would have to be an outright fool to think that there is absolutely nothing shady or suspicious about the events of september 11th.
 

FuzzyBee

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2000
5,172
1
81
Originally posted by: Dissipate

Right, because I guess a physicist can't know anything about melting points of steel, momentum or inertia. :roll:

Which is why physicists design and build skyscrapers all the time, right?
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
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Originally posted by: FuzzyBee
Originally posted by: Dissipate

Right, because I guess a physicist can't know anything about melting points of steel, momentum or inertia. :roll:

Which is why physicists design and build skyscrapers all the time, right?

Uh, yes, they actualluy do. Show me a single structural engineering program that doesn't have a lot of physics.

Futhermore, one doesn't need to be a structural engineer to understand the impossibilities of a building collapsing from a fire. Your objection is stupid. You have to be able to design an entire building to be able to point out the physics of its collapse?

That's like saying you have to be a mechanical engineer to be able to understand the physics of an auto accident. :roll:
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,924
259
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I know that steel gets ridiculously hot when twisted, but have no idea how you figure those numbers. I just didn't see alot of twisting in the WTC collapses. What I have seen in different angles is alot of blowouts of debri that just don't look natural. If the bottom floors fell and crumpled during whatever event kicked off the collapse, then the floors above the collision should of also collapsed. The fact is many of the upper floors stayed intact until impact and then the structure pancaked on the ground, with large pieces of concrete totally left intact. The upper concrete structure should of disintegrated just as the bottom sections below it did. It didn't happen. If this was a crime scene the material should of never been scrapped. The skeptic in me wants more information but the realist in me says its not worth spending day and night wondering about things out of my control. I'll let the experts investigate this matter.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
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Originally posted by: MadRat
If this was a crime scene the material should of never been scrapped. The skeptic in me wants more information but the realist in me says its not worth spending day and night wondering about things out of my control. I'll let the experts investigate this matter.

A lot of the experts are lackeys for the government and the NIST.

Even still I think that the truth will one day be revealed. I've gone over a number of reports from some of these 911 review sites. A lot of them are bogus and really do have outrageous conspiricy theories. Others have some pretty sound analysis. The sites that have the outrageous stuff really detract from the honest investigations, and the proponents of the official theory use those arguments as strawmen (a great example of that is the popular mechanics article which attacks straw men and just cites the same stuff from the NIST report).

Aside from the twin towers collapsing I think the most revealing and most suspicious of all is the collapse of building 7. If you watch a bunch of videos of controlled implosion demolitions and then you watch the collapse of building 7, there is an absolute unmistakable resemblence. It almost seems like a sick joke.

 

Meuge

Banned
Nov 27, 2005
2,963
0
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Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Dissipate
I can't say one way or another whether the claims of this professor are true. I do believe that there are unanswered questions about 9/11 and I am almost certain that the government is hiding *something* or even a number of things.

I'll say something else though. I scoff at those who reject the 'conspiracy theories' out of hand based on their belief that big brother is benevolent.
...

Just a comment about the attitude of those of us who reject this sort of conspiracy nonsense...it's not about viewing big brother as benevolent. Well, it may be for some people, but the reason I (and a lot of people like me) reject this stuff is because it's stupid. My belief about government has nothing to do with it. If you have read my posts, you know I DON'T really trust the government to be good. But my beliefs, or your beliefs, or even the biggest conservative bootlicker's beliefs don't make the slightest bit of difference here.

The reason I reject these theories is becuase they don't make logical sense. What's the alternative theory about the Pentagon...that something other than an airliner (possibly a military plane or a missle) hit the Pentagon and then the government lied and said it WAS an airliner. Great, but why would they do that? Even if I accept that 9/11 was a government conspiracy, why do it that way? Why not fly an actual airliner into the Pentagon? Or why not do whatever they supposedly did and tell us the terrorists did it?

I will be the first person to admit that I don't think the government, especially our current President, can be totally trusted. And I'll be the first to suggest that we need to watch them to make sure they ARE doing the right thing. And I'll even admit that 9/11 didn't have to have happened the way the official story tells it. But that doesn't mean I'm going to buy whatever half-ass BS is being sold as "what really happened". It's an emotional reaction on the part of whoever believes, because they HAVE to believe it.

The conspiracy theorists do not understand the concept of Occum's Razor. If the covert agencies of the US government wanted to demolish the WTC, why would they crash airliners into it, then detonate the planted charges in a manner that (according to you) is obvious to everyone... and then create a massive conspiracy?

WTC basement was already attacked with a bomb once. Wouldn't it have been much much simpler to put another bomb in the basement, blow it up, and say terrorists did it - then the whole conspiracy issue would be moot!

Furthermore, somehow these conspiracists decided that killing up to 50'000 people who worked in WTC towers was OK, but also decided that they'd collapse the building just so that it would fall in its footprint. So 50'000 deaths and 20 billion in damage was OK by them, but 60'000 and 30 billion was not?

That's why these theories are ridiculous!
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
Originally posted by: Dissipate
And yours does? There are experts who have said that it is extremely unlikely that the towers collapsed due to just fires, including demolition experts who have testified to the fact that the building collapses looked just like expertly planned demolitions.

As a matter of fact, yes my opinion does matter a hell of a lot more than yours ever will on this subject. Just as you can find a biologist that rejects evolution you can find engineers and scientists who are as crazy as yourself, almost none of them will be recognized experts in their field.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
And they all worked on the NIST report with the fire-collapse theory as the only theory in mind. The NIST report talks about all these supposed 'computer models' they did. Let's see the computer models and if they are even realistic.

You wouldn't even be able to interpret the computer model, hell even if they gave it to you and the software involved it would all be completely meaningless to you. You don't know a damn thing about this subject yet you think you have enough expertise to judge the value of the model or the analysis. That makes you unrealistic and borderline crazy. Just like I don't trust the opinion of that guy on the bus who thinks he is Jesus I won't be coming to you for advice on the validity of structural engineering questions. I found it downright insulting that you would insinuate that hundereds of trained professionals (who's duty is to put public safety above personal, monetary or political concerns) lied.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
The fact that there is tons of tell tale evidence of a controlled demolition during the actual collapse of the building. But the NIST report completely excludes all of that by conveniently avoiding analysis of the events that occured during the collapse.

Tons of telltale evidence in your expert opinion as a college student majoring in what? Accounting? And lets be honest, what parts of the report you read you understood less than 5%, and it contradicted your pet theory so you got mad.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
I think a lot of professors do have tin foil hats. That much is true. This professor does not seem to have any of that. He seems to me to be someone who is doing an honest investigation. I didn't see anything in his paper or any indication during his interview on MSNBC that indicated that he was a 'nutjob.'

Well I can't expect you to see a professional nutjob in a profession or discipline you don't have a clue about, but even then with as crazy as you are I wouldn't expect you notice someone else who is as crazy as you are.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Show me a single university that doesn't have some nutjobs somewhere. My university (UCSD) is loaded with nutjob radical leftwingers all over campus in the humanities and social sciences. Does that mean that I should completely reject everything I learn in the physics department? Get real. There is a huge difference between the physical sciences and the social sciences.

BYU pervades an atmosphere of denial of scientific evidence, it's required to accept the mormon religion and as a result you end up with professors like this guy that talk about a subject that he does not understand.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Building design is not the only thing at play here. The laws of physics play a huge role in the collapse of a building. As the professor has stated in his paper, the collapse, if it were to be caused by a fire would have violated the second law of thermodynamics.

Just like evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics, right? Unfortunately a lay person like you might actually believe that a physics teacher could somehow comprehend and come up with the actual processes that operate on a structure as tall and massive as the WTC but you are wrong. Dead wrong.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Right, because I guess a physicist can't know anything about melting points of steel, momentum or inertia. :roll:

Nope, he can know plenty about such information, he just can't put any of it together and describe or ascertain the interaction of the elements in a structure that is over a 1000' tall with a finite element model that would tax even the largest of computers. Hell he couldn't even build the model because he doesn't know anything about the interaction of a steel support members, fire, the supporting concrete structure or even things like the effect the wind would have had on the structure.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Nothing. All I am saying is that the government itself has been propagandizing a conspiracy theory. This is a conspiracy theory that many have shown to be inconsistent and far fetched. For instance, as I said before, why didn't the hijackers wait until later in the day to hijack the plans when the buildings would have had tens of thousands of people in them and not just a few thousand?

As you said the political explanations for why this occured have nothing whatsover to do with what did occur. That is why a panel of experts were assembled to figure out why the towers fell. These experts reached a conclusion that is logically supported, well modeled and rests on their reputations and independent designers and consultants.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
The idea that three buildings could all collapse in perfect symmetry due to fires when no steel building in the history of buildings had ever collapsed due to a fire sounds more like easter bunny material to me.

That's because this is a field you don't know a damn thing about. In the past people recognized when they didn't know something about a topic and kept their mouths shut and left it to the experts. Today every tinfoiler thinks they are experts and much like yourself they impunge the reputations of experts based on their innaccurate and idiotic assertians.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
The professor gave a presentation to 60 structural engineers, physicists and other engineers. All 60 of them said that the NIST report was inconclusive and a full scale independent investigation should take place. And that is just the people he could get at that location.

You could easily find 60 engineers, physiciasts and other engineers to deny the moon landing. None were experts, not to mention I don't believe that this even occured.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Other experts have come forward and said that the NIST report is full of inconsistencies and outright bogus analysis. They want samples of the steel from the towers. Where is it? Why did the government get rid of it so quickly?

And what exactly is steel samples going to reveal? The government didn't get rid of anything. The debris took over 6 months to pick it all up, and during cleanup the building owner surplused the steel to the high bidder to recoup some of the lost rent they were experiencing so they could load up cash reserves to design and build the new structure. Or did you expect the independent owner to just sit on losses of hundereds of millions of dollars annually?

Originally posted by: Dissipate
I posted 12 suspicious facts surrounding the attacks above. Instead of repeating tin foil hat, tin foil hat, tin foil hat, why don't you try answering some of those questions?

Because half the questions are unverifiable statements that aren't fact nor supported. The others comprise a mix of innuendo and stupidity.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
You would have to be an outright fool to think that there is absolutely nothing shady or suspicious about the events of september 11th.

The events of 9/11 have NOTHING to do with the collapse. Maybe when you recogize that, step out of your tinfoil covered home and enter the real world where real people live you might realize that.
 

cmdrmoocow

Golden Member
Jul 22, 2004
1,503
0
0
Well, considering they were hit by a plane, the persons in charge may have decided that the entire building was going to collapse sideways and take out a few more towers on its way.

They probably had the option of demolishing the towers as they were to keep the lives lost under control, and I would not be surprised if they rigged the building with explosives at the time of construction in case of such emergency.
 

CQuinn

Golden Member
May 31, 2000
1,656
0
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I would not be surprised if they rigged the building with explosives at the time of construction in case of such emergency.

The WTC was completed in 1973, IIRC that was years before the <b>best</b> controlled demolitions companies in the world
would have been capable of planning a controlled collapse on that scale. And that planning requires clearing the
building of supports such as walls and furniture, because those items tend to interfere with the "control" of the
demolition and actually make the use of explosives too dangerous to be considered by any reasonable person.

Nevermind that explosive compounds left lying around for 3 decades would either not be as useful as when they
were originally mixed, or might have become more volatile over the years, making it more dangerous to have
them around. In either case, not something you rig in at the time of construction, not to mention how they would
have had to deal with all the constrution workers who would have been witnesses to the rigging at the time.

Controlled demoliton of large structures (particularly large buildings) are planned weeks in advance, with coordination
with local agencies to insure public safety. Buildings like the WTC are designed to avoid falling over in the first place,
with some effort also put into the idea of keeping them from falling sideways.

As a matter of fact, Skyscrapers in general are built with motiion dampening systems specifically created to cut down on
the sway induced by normal winds moving around the building on a day by day basis. Its not hard to consider that
if those same systems were still in effect at the time of the attack, then that in itself is a significant factor contributing
to the lack of sideways motion during the collapse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Centerhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
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Originally posted by: rahvin

Tinfoiler!
Tinfoiler!

Tinfoiler!

Tinfoiler!

Tinfoiler!

Tinfoiler!
Tinfoiler!

Tinfoiler!

Tinfoiler!

Tinfoiler!

Yep. Just as I suspected. Absolutely no discussion of the facts at hand. Just more accusations of being a crazy tinfoiler.

I'd like to post this opinion news piece to show you that this professor is under pressure to stop his research:

BYU Brass Discredit Physics Professor for Saying WTC Brought Down by Controlled Demolition
Professor Steven E. Jones only was in the public eye for five days before BYU told him to stop giving interviews. Now the university has issued a public statement distancing itself from Jones and even discrediting his work. Critics suggest Bush administration had its dirty hand in forcing BYU to 'shut up' its professor.
29 Nov 2005

By Greg Szymanski



Brigham Young University (BYU) issued a public statement this week, discrediting and distancing itself from physics Professor Steven E. Jones for publicly claiming the WTC was brought down by explosives not jet fuel like the government contends.



Jones, a tenured BYU professor, went public two weeks ago after releasing a 19 page academic paper, essentially showing how the laws of physics do not support the WTC?s freefall and, consequently, the official government story.



While expressing doubt about the government?s version of 9/11, he called for an independent investigation concerning the strange collapse of the towers and Building No. 7, something the 9/11 Commission failed to do and something the Bush administration adamantly opposes.



However, Jones? notoriety turned out to be short lived as only days after giving numerous press interviews, including a six-minute spot on MSNBC, BYU officials twisted his arm and convinced him to stop appearing publicly.



Critics quickly pointed out that Jones must have been ?silenced quickly? after the Bush administration pressured BYU to end any further embarrassment while, at the same time, reminding officials about the numerous government grants swinging in the balance.



But before the situation turned ugly, Jones himself tried to immediately end the controversy, claiming all parties reached an amicable agreement without anybody strong arming anybody.



?I want to thank everyone for the attention, but it is best that I limit my appearances at this time,? said Jones in a telephone conversation from his BYU office only five days after first appearing publicly about his controversial 9/1 statements. ?University officials and I have come to an understanding that in the best interest for all parties involved, it is better that I limit my speaking on 9/11 to academic peer reviews.?



Even tough all parties appeared to be on the same ?closed mouth? page, BYU this week BYU came out with an official statement, distancing itself from its professor and even finding a way to politely criticize him for the methods he used in researching his 9/11 paper, adding his techniques may have not been up to high standards usually attached to other BYU academic work.



The paper now openly questioned by BYU officials is entitled ?Why Indeed did the WTC Buildings Collapse? and has been accepted for academic publication included in the book ?The Hidden History of 9-11-2001, Research in Political Economy, Volume 23.?



Finding a way to discredit Jones in a subtle way, BYU issued the following public statement about Jones? controversial 9/11 views:



?Brigham Young University has a policy of academic freedom that supports the pursuit and dissemination of knowledge and ideas. Through the academic process, ideas should be advanced, challenged, and debated by peer-review in credible venues. We believe in the integrity of the academic review process and that, when it is followed properly, peer-review is valuable for evaluating the validity of ideas and conclusions.



?The university is aware that Professor Steven Jones' hypotheses and interpretations of evidence regarding the collapse of World Trade Center buildings are being questioned by a number of scholars and practitioners, including many of BYU's own faculty members. Professor Jones' department and college administrators are not convinced that his analyses and hypotheses have been submitted to relevant scientific venues that would ensure rigorous technical peer review.?



Jones was unavailable for comment as he is no longer talking openly with the media, but when he did talk it created a stir which even was addressed on MSNBC by conservative talk show host, Tucker Carlson.



Jones made a brief six minute appearance, saying publicly afterwards he was unhappy by the ?one-sided presentation? siding with the government as well as Carlson?s failure to show the video clip of Building No. 7 freefalling to the ground as requested by Jones during the show.



?I asked three times to play the clip of Building No. 7 falling but they wouldn?t do it,? said Jones after the appearance with Carlson, a well-known Bush administration mouthpiece who slanted Jones? story in favor of the government, as expected.



Not only did Carlson refuse to address key visual evidence clearly showing a freefall of the WTC, he also issued a statement telling Jones and others who think the government may have been complicit in 9/11 to leave the country, an analysis completely lacking sensibility and bordering on outright insanity.



Responding to a caller about pre-positioned explosives detonated in all three buildings at Ground Zero, Carlson said:



?If you really believe the U.S. government killed 3000 of its own citizens for no reason and lied about it and invaded Afghanistan as a result of something it did, you ought to leave the country? because that?s so terrible? so evil, that your tax dollars go in to support it make you complicit in it? if you really believe that, you ought to leave??



Besides the MSNBC appearance, Jones previously granted one of his first interviews to the Arctic Beacon and American Free Press, also making one of his only radio appearances before going silent on Greg Szymanski?s radio show, ?The Investigative Journal,? on the Republic Broadcasting Network. For a replay of the hour-long radio interview go to www.rbnlive.com (archives page) and for a feature article on Jones go to www.arcticbeacon.com.



Before ending his media appearances, Jones tried to explain why he wrote his paper:



?I wanted to limit my discussion to my expertise and that is why I talked mainly about the physics of the freefall of the towers and Building 7,? said Jones, adding he did criticize the so-called ?pod theory? or the theory that a ?drone plane? was used to crash into the towers.

In his paper, Jones stayed away from commenting on most other aspects of 9/11 except for the freefall of the towers and the limited criticism of the ?pod theory.?



?I did receive emails about why I did that (criticized the pod theory) and even told Morgan Reynolds, I really felt it was important to stick with the issues of 9/11 that are the most obvious and the easiest to prove. That is why I wanted to limit my discussion, but in further papers I plan to address other 9/11 issues. Also, I feel the 9/11 community needs to work together and not be splintered by constantly arguing among ourselves over conflicting theories that may take away from the ones we can conclusively prove.?



Jones literally shocked the ?Red State? of Utah and the conservative world when he released his 19 page critical paper basically ripping apart the official 9/11 story, limiting his discussion to his expertise in physics and the virtual impossibility of the towers falling from merely jet fuel as the government contends.



Jones earlier said he first presented his explosive conclusions at Brigham Young University (BYU) on September 22, to 60 people from the BYU and Utah Valley State College faculties, including professors of Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Geology, Mathematics and Psychology.



After presently scientific arguments in favor of the controlled demolition theory, Jones said everyone in attendance from all backgrounds, conservative and liberal, were in total agreement further investigation was needed.



Jones added that the contingent of faculty members at the September seminar were all in agreement that the government needed to ?come clean? and release more that 6,900 photographs and close to 7,000 segments of video footage, now being held from independent investigation by the FBI and other agencies.



In Jones? 9,000 word paper, his conclusions why the towers most likely were brought down by a controlled demolition can be summed up as follows.:



? The three buildings collapsed nearly symmetrically, falling down into their footprints, a phenomenon associated with "controlled demolition" ? and even then it's very difficult, he says. "Why would terrorists undertake straight-down collapses of WTC-7 and the Towers when 'toppling over' falls would require much less work and would do much more damage in downtown Manhattan?" Jones asks. "And where would they obtain the necessary skills and access to the buildings for a symmetrical implosion anyway? The 'symmetry data' emphasized here, along with other data, provide strong evidence for an 'inside' job."



? No steel-frame building, before or after the WTC buildings, has ever collapsed due to fire. But explosives can effectively sever steel columns, he says.



? WTC 7, which was not hit by hijacked planes, collapsed in 6.6 seconds, just .6 of a second longer than it would take an object dropped from the roof to hit the ground. "Where is the delay that must be expected due to conservation of momentum, one of the foundational laws of physics?" he asks. "That is, as upper-falling floors strike lower floors ? and intact steel support columns ? the fall must be significantly impeded by the impacted mass. . . . How do the upper floors fall so quickly, then, and still conserve momentum in the collapsing buildings?" The paradox, he says, "is easily resolved by the explosive demolition hypothesis, whereby explosives quickly removed lower-floor material, including steel support columns, and allow near free-fall-speed collapses." These observations were not analyzed by FEMA, NIST nor the 9/11 Commission, he says.



? With non-explosive-caused collapse there would typically be a piling up of shattering concrete. But most of the material in the towers was converted to flour-like powder while the buildings were falling, he says. "How can we understand this strange behavior, without explosives? Remarkable, amazing ? and demanding scrutiny since the U.S. government-funded reports failed to analyze this phenomenon."



? Horizontal puffs of smoke, known as squibs, were observed proceeding up the side the building, a phenomenon common when pre-positioned explosives are used to demolish buildings, he says.



? Steel supports were "partly evaporated," but it would require temperatures near 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit to evaporate steel ? and neither office materials nor diesel fuel can generate temperatures that hot. Fires caused by jet fuel from the hijacked planes lasted at most a few minutes, and office material fires would burn out within about 20 minutes in any given location, he says.



? Molten metal found in the debris of the World Trade Center may have been the result of a high-temperature reaction of a commonly used explosive such as thermite, he says. Buildings not felled by explosives "have insufficient directed energy to result in melting of large quantities of metal," Jones says.



? Multiple loud explosions in rapid sequence were reported by numerous observers in and near the towers, and these explosions occurred far below the region where the planes struck, he says.

Text

I would like to focus in on one question. Why was there molten steel in the basement of the WTC site weeks after the attacks?

I'd like to start this off by pointing out that the existence of molten metal in the basement area is highly indicative of usage of thermite bombs.

You can continue on your ivory tower elitist egotist tin foily rant, or we can discuss this issue.

And for the record I am not an accounting major. I'm a math-computer science major at University of California San Diego. Sorry to ruin your ivory tower ego trip on that issue.

Edit:

As a matter of fact, yes my opinion does matter a hell of a lot more than yours ever will on this subject. Just as you can find a biologist that rejects evolution you can find engineers and scientists who are as crazy as yourself, almost none of them will be recognized experts in their field.

Prove that your opinion matters more. Let's discuss these issues. All I've heard from you so far is a bunch of hot air.

David Deutsch is a well known physicist from Oxford University who is a proponent of the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. On that he is in the extreme minority. Is he a complete crank also?
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
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I'd like to post a video of a speech given by Jeff King, an engineer from MIT who discusses and confirms almost everything the BYU professor has talked about in addition to other stuff.

Text
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
Originally posted by: Dissipate
I would like to focus in on one question. Why was there molten steel in the basement of the WTC site weeks after the attacks?

There wasn't. There was heat present in the ruins because there was a smoldering fire burning in the rubble for months. Do you know how a forge works? (that isn't a rhetorical question, please explain the mechanics of a forge)

Originally posted by: Dissipate
And for the record I am not an accounting major. I'm a math-computer science major at University of California San Diego

And a Math and computer science degree that you haven't even completed makes you qualified to assess the validity of an engineering study?

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Prove that your opinion matters more. Let's discuss these issues. All I've heard from you so far is a bunch of hot air.

Well that makes two of us then, haven't heard a logical thought from you yet.

Originally posted by: Dissipate
David Deutsch is a well known physicist from Oxford University who is a proponent of the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. On that he is in the extreme minority. Is he a complete crank also?

He is if he's giving lectures about structural engineering investigations, in much the same manner as the nutjob from BYU and yourself.

Now lets answer a question of mine, what is strain hardening and how does it affect the metals that have were part of the rubble of the WTC?
 
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