CA Strike: stock boy beaten with baseball bat.

[rjain]

Originally posted by: CheapArse

Ya, they could go work some where else non union and make a couple bucks less, or go to night school for the next 7 years....but which, in their minds, do you think is more practicle.

Planning for a career that can provide them with their desired lifestyle. Live in a 2BR apt. Don't have 5 kids. Don't go out to eat. Whining about how much their services are worth on the open market is like whining about the low price of candy. If you don't like that the guy down the street is selling candy at 25 cents a bag less than you, do you think it's right for you to strike a deal to collude and increase prices? I seem to recall this anti-trust legislation that was supposed to stop this kind of unionization of sellers. Too bad some industries think they're exempt from the principles of open markets.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
LOL, I guess all those Police and Firefighter Unions are filled with weak individuals

Do they need the union in order to collude and increase wages and benefits, or are the unions there for some other reason?

What Unions Do

Unions guarantee rewards for hard work and initiative.

Workers with unions earn an average 25 percent more than do workers without a union.
Seventy-three percent of union members in the private industry get health benefits on the job, compared with about half of workers without unions.
Seventy percent of union members in medium and large private companies are covered by defined-benefit pensions that guarantee a benefit, compared with only 16 percent of workers without a union.
Unions help remedy discrimination in the workplace.

Union contracts raise earnings by 30 percent for working women and African Americans and 45 percent for Latinos.
Union contracts help make sure that everyone is treated fairly and equally on the job.
Unions raise living standards for the whole community.

For decades, union membership paved the way to a strong and growing middle class. As union membership declined, the gap between the wealthy and everyone else grew.
Better wages and benefits through unions mean that more families can make it on their own in the community?and the wage and benefit floor is lifted for everyone.
Studies show that states where many of the workers have a union are also states with lower poverty rates, better schools and less crime.
Unions make America work better.

Unions raise professional standards. Union workers have a say in decisions that affect the quality of the products they make and the services they deliver. Unions train more workers each year than any organization outside the U.S. military.
Studies show that by lowering turnover rates and giving workers a voice in how work is done, unions raise productivity by 19 to 24 percent in manufacturing, 17 to 38 percent in construction and up to 16 percent in hospitals.
Unions help make sure our nation prioritizes working people?s issues?they hold corporations accountable, make workplaces safe, protect Social Security and retirement, fight for quality health care and make sure working people have time to spend with their families. If unions weren?t out there fighting for these issues, who would be?

Sources: U.S. Department of Labor, Employment and Earnings, January 2002; U.S. Census Bureau; Income of Households by State in 2000; O?Leary, Kathleen and Scott Morgan, State Rankings 2002; Belman, Dale, ?Unions, the Quality of Labor Relations, and Firm Performance,? in Unions and Economic Competitiveness. Lawrence Mishel and Paula B. Voos, eds.

http://www.aflcio.org/aboutunions/joinunions/whatunionsdo.cfm

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
LOL, I guess all those Police and Firefighter Unions are filled with weak individuals

Do they need the union in order to collude and increase wages and benefits, or are the unions there for some other reason?

thats the definition of a union...

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
LOL, I guess all those Police and Firefighter Unions are filled with weak individuals

Do they need the union in order to collude and increase wages and benefits, or are the unions there for some other reason?

thats the definition of a union...

Bargaining is not Collusion. There is no Conspiring, it's give and take, in essence Bartering.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

What Unions Do
[...]

Thanks for the propaganda session.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Bargaining is not Collusion. There is no Conspiring, it's give and take, in essence Bartering.

So they don't bargain as a group in order to raise prices? They don't punish people who don't follow their monopoly? Standard Oil was also give and take. Eventually they took so much that they had to give up their monopoly by government mandate.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Bargaining is not Collusion. There is no Conspiring, it's give and take, in essence Bartering.

collective bargaining is collusion amongst the actors on each side.

 

[KK]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
LOL, I guess all those Police and Firefighter Unions are filled with weak individuals

Do they need the union in order to collude and increase wages and benefits, or are the unions there for some other reason?

What Unions Do

Unions guarantee rewards for hard work and initiative.

Workers with unions earn an average 25 percent more than do workers without a union.
Seventy-three percent of union members in the private industry get health benefits on the job, compared with about half of workers without unions.
Seventy percent of union members in medium and large private companies are covered by defined-benefit pensions that guarantee a benefit, compared with only 16 percent of workers without a union.
Unions help remedy discrimination in the workplace.

Union contracts raise earnings by 30 percent for working women and African Americans and 45 percent for Latinos.
Union contracts help make sure that everyone is treated fairly and equally on the job.
Unions raise living standards for the whole community.

For decades, union membership paved the way to a strong and growing middle class. As union membership declined, the gap between the wealthy and everyone else grew.
Better wages and benefits through unions mean that more families can make it on their own in the community?and the wage and benefit floor is lifted for everyone.
Studies show that states where many of the workers have a union are also states with lower poverty rates, better schools and less crime.
Unions make America work better.

Unions raise professional standards. Union workers have a say in decisions that affect the quality of the products they make and the services they deliver. Unions train more workers each year than any organization outside the U.S. military.
Studies show that by lowering turnover rates and giving workers a voice in how work is done, unions raise productivity by 19 to 24 percent in manufacturing, 17 to 38 percent in construction and up to 16 percent in hospitals.
Unions help make sure our nation prioritizes working people?s issues?they hold corporations accountable, make workplaces safe, protect Social Security and retirement, fight for quality health care and make sure working people have time to spend with their families. If unions weren?t out there fighting for these issues, who would be?

Sources: U.S. Department of Labor, Employment and Earnings, January 2002; U.S. Census Bureau; Income of Households by State in 2000; O?Leary, Kathleen and Scott Morgan, State Rankings 2002; Belman, Dale, ?Unions, the Quality of Labor Relations, and Firm Performance,? in Unions and Economic Competitiveness. Lawrence Mishel and Paula B. Voos, eds.

http://www.aflcio.org/aboutunions/joinunions/whatunionsdo.cfm

I have to argue that first point. Unions guarantee rewards for hard work. Our company has a union workforce, and I have seen some of the laziest ass people in it. True there are lazy people outside the union but those that don't perform do get dismissed. Try and fire a union employee, it'll never happen unless they screw up totally, I can guarantee it wouldn't be performance related.

KK

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

What Unions Do
[...]

Thanks for the propaganda session.

You are welcome. I came to the realization that no matter what I said I wasn't going to change your opinion so I took the easy way out and just cut and paste.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: KK

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
LOL, I guess all those Police and Firefighter Unions are filled with weak individuals

Do they need the union in order to collude and increase wages and benefits, or are the unions there for some other reason?

What Unions Do

Unions guarantee rewards for hard work and initiative.

Workers with unions earn an average 25 percent more than do workers without a union.
Seventy-three percent of union members in the private industry get health benefits on the job, compared with about half of workers without unions.
Seventy percent of union members in medium and large private companies are covered by defined-benefit pensions that guarantee a benefit, compared with only 16 percent of workers without a union.
Unions help remedy discrimination in the workplace.

Union contracts raise earnings by 30 percent for working women and African Americans and 45 percent for Latinos.
Union contracts help make sure that everyone is treated fairly and equally on the job.
Unions raise living standards for the whole community.

For decades, union membership paved the way to a strong and growing middle class. As union membership declined, the gap between the wealthy and everyone else grew.
Better wages and benefits through unions mean that more families can make it on their own in the community?and the wage and benefit floor is lifted for everyone.
Studies show that states where many of the workers have a union are also states with lower poverty rates, better schools and less crime.
Unions make America work better.

Unions raise professional standards. Union workers have a say in decisions that affect the quality of the products they make and the services they deliver. Unions train more workers each year than any organization outside the U.S. military.
Studies show that by lowering turnover rates and giving workers a voice in how work is done, unions raise productivity by 19 to 24 percent in manufacturing, 17 to 38 percent in construction and up to 16 percent in hospitals.
Unions help make sure our nation prioritizes working people?s issues?they hold corporations accountable, make workplaces safe, protect Social Security and retirement, fight for quality health care and make sure working people have time to spend with their families. If unions weren?t out there fighting for these issues, who would be?

Sources: U.S. Department of Labor, Employment and Earnings, January 2002; U.S. Census Bureau; Income of Households by State in 2000; O?Leary, Kathleen and Scott Morgan, State Rankings 2002; Belman, Dale, ?Unions, the Quality of Labor Relations, and Firm Performance,? in Unions and Economic Competitiveness. Lawrence Mishel and Paula B. Voos, eds.

http://www.aflcio.org/aboutunions/joinunions/whatunionsdo.cfm

I have to argue that first point. Unions guarantee rewards for hard work. Our company has a union workforce, and I have seen some of the laziest ass people in it. True there are lazy people outside the union but those that don't perform do get dismissed. Try and fire a union employee, it'll never happen unless they screw up totally, I can guarantee it wouldn't be performance related.

KK

Well I can't speak for the Union you belonged too but I can say with absolute confidence that in the Carpenters Union, especially local I belonged too if a guy wasn't doing his work the company he worked for could can his ass and the Union wouldn't would budge a finger to help him get his job back. It's not like working for the Government.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

You are welcome. I came to the realization that no matter what I said I wasn't going to change your opinion so I took the easy way out and just cut and paste.

It's educational that you have such little confidence in your opinion.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

You are welcome. I came to the realization that no matter what I said I wasn't going to change your opinion so I took the easy way out and just cut and paste.

It's educational that you have such little confidence in your opinion.

Oh please, save your condenscinding attitude for someone else rjain

 

[phonemonkey]

Having dealt with workers from Vons (I work at the helpdesk), I can say that the statement about Unions providing hard workers is not the case (as a whole) for Vons workers.

The average caller from Vons usually has no idea what they're doing (despite the ample documentation available online for all store employees to read and training depts), and quite often want the helpdesk to do their jobs (this is especially true with store orders and file maintenance work).

I have to say that at the scabs that have been brought on are generally nicer than the average Vons caller, and is more willing to listen and learn.

Then again, if you want to talk to a real hard working Grocery Union group, talk to Dominicks. I've never met so many rude people working in service jobs. I can't understand how they were able to stay in business. Then again, they made some really bad demands (as a general rule, do NOT demand large raises when you are NOT turning a profit) and are being sold/closed down as a result.

 

[Medicated858]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Medicated858

Originally posted by: Lucky

first off nobody makes $17/hour, that is just a token figure.

I've read firsthand interview with checkers who think their job is something to keep for life since it pays so much. Yes, these people DO get paid that much. Yes, the COL is higher in california but to make nearly 40K for a skills free job....and then to bitch about having to pay a little more in health care premium is outrageous! (Why do union workers ALWAYS think they are exempt from having to pay higher health care costs?)

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Try talking to actual baggers, which I have, they don't make anywhere near that type of money. Try actually reading what they are taking away from the workers. They are cutting their pensions plans and their medical plans and freezing their wages for two years. News flash genius without unions you'd still be getting paid $1 an hour. Unions are the reason we actually have reasonable wages, no no by all means lets go back to the early 1900's where corporations owned workers and there was nothing they could do about it.

Wow - you sure do know a lot of things that aren't so

Without a Union the baggers would NOT be getting paid $1/hr. Now I know your going to blabber on about how the Union saved the worker way back when, but thats fine - Unions served a purpose back then. Now days though they aren't needed. People are more informed, free moving, and not as loyal to a company(they switch jobs often). This means that if you don't like an employer and how they treat/pay you - you can leave. Wow - what a concept. Taking personal responsibility for your own job/income - whodda thunk it.

People who "NEED" Unions are weak. Come on take charge of YOURSELF for once - only YOU know what is best for YOU, not some Union reps asshat or some elected official in Washington who things you "NEED" this or that because you can't do it or survive without it.

Bottom line - Take charge of your own life, you don't "need" their supposed "help"

CkG

Wow you sure must live in a fantasy world. Your arguments are typical conservative bs. How do you even know they wouldn't be getting paid $1/hour, In many southeast asian companies where the workers are powerless they get paid less than that. Let's see...now where would unions still be needed today.....how about in grocery stores. The idea that you are going to freeze wage increases and cut benefits for people who are barely above the povery line is ridiculous. I don't know if you live in San Diego but the cost of living here is twice as high as many other parts of the country. This whole "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" bs that so many people like to spout is just that bs. The plain fact of the matter is the majority of wealthy people were born wealthy. Let me change that, the VAST majority of wealthy people were born wealthy. You can take isolated cases like Bill Gates and say "see look he did it" but the idea that anyone can is false. Have you ever lived an impoverished lifestyle, where you lived day to day? It's not that easy to just switch jobs when you have to worry about surviving and keeping your family alive.

 

[illustri]

i thought the oppurtunity for self improvement was the one freedom enjoyed by all in the united states, no matter what the economic background
the fact that many wealthy people were born wealthy dosen't excuse anyone without similar advantages to strive for better times themselves, nor does the fact that they have to work harder, fairness is a principle born entirely of human society - nothing says we MUST all be equal

all this is not to say one shouldn't care about the downtrodden, or allow injustice to pass
im sure the issue here is complex and i dont pretend to know enough to side one way or the next, but if i applied the human principle of fairness i can safely say it WASNT FAIR for the stock boy to be beaten

 

[Medicated858]

Originally posted by: illustri
i thought the oppurtunity for self improvement was the one freedom enjoyed by all in the united states, no matter what the economic background
the fact that many wealthy people were born wealthy dosen't excuse anyone without similar advantages to strive for better times themselves, nor does the fact that they have to work harder, fairness is a principle born entirely of human society - nothing says we MUST all be equal

all this is not to say one shouldn't care about the downtrodden, or allow injustice to pass
im sure the issue here is complex and i dont pretend to know enough to side one way or the next, but if i applied the human principle of fairness i can safely say it WASNT FAIR for the stock boy to be beaten

Yeah and we live in a human society. Nothing does say we MUST all be equal, but you would hope that decent people would WANT us all to be equal.

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: Corn

Wow, not cool. At all. I actually crossed the picket line today at Albertson's. Just to buy groceries. The whole time though, I was worried they were going to mess up my car or something. I kept peeking out at the parking lot. Everything turned out OK though. The incidents I've heard so far during this strike seem to be mainly directed at scabs. Makes sense I suppose...

It is my contention that anyone who crosses a picket line does not give a sh1t about this country.

And it is my contention that you support the scum looking for a free ride. The business of America is business, companies are out to make money, strikes are BS and out moded. Insurance companies raise premiums and workers expect companies to absorb all of the increase themselves while simultaneously paying higher wages, that is anti-capitalistic and anti-american. These people want higher wages? Get better jobs. I wouldn't pay a grocery bagger much more than minimum wage, they put groceries in a bag, we don't ask them to build cars or drive trucks, they have NO skills.

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: Corn

Oh yeah - I'm a huge hypocrite. Prove it. You're just pissed 'cause I pointed out a huge hole in your Wal-Mart argument. Awwwww, poor Corn. I see how it is though, I guess you're on some huge crusade to "discredit" me now? Whatever. :

What "hole" would that be? That the author of the Walmart article claims 34 hours/week as "full time", when in fact it is "part time"? Of couse you didn't comprehend where I was getting at there did you? So here you go, I made it easy for you, have fun with it.

Besides, I don't have to discredit you.......you do that all by yourself.

But hey, it's ok to cross a picket line as long as you're in a hurry. Solidarity!!!!!

Break the strike put the lazy back on the street. I work for my money, and invest money every month, have been since I was 16. I take offense to this whole Union BS about higher wages, they union workers could afford to work for less if they didn't give their money to the unions...

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Medicated858

Originally posted by: Lucky

first off nobody makes $17/hour, that is just a token figure.

I've read firsthand interview with checkers who think their job is something to keep for life since it pays so much. Yes, these people DO get paid that much. Yes, the COL is higher in california but to make nearly 40K for a skills free job....and then to bitch about having to pay a little more in health care premium is outrageous! (Why do union workers ALWAYS think they are exempt from having to pay higher health care costs?)

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Try talking to actual baggers, which I have, they don't make anywhere near that type of money. Try actually reading what they are taking away from the workers. They are cutting their pensions plans and their medical plans and freezing their wages for two years. News flash genius without unions you'd still be getting paid $1 an hour. Unions are the reason we actually have reasonable wages, no no by all means lets go back to the early 1900's where corporations owned workers and there was nothing they could do about it.

Wow - you sure do know a lot of things that aren't so

Without a Union the baggers would NOT be getting paid $1/hr. Now I know your going to blabber on about how the Union saved the worker way back when, but thats fine - Unions served a purpose back then. Now days though they aren't needed. People are more informed, free moving, and not as loyal to a company(they switch jobs often). This means that if you don't like an employer and how they treat/pay you - you can leave. Wow - what a concept. Taking personal responsibility for your own job/income - whodda thunk it.

People who "NEED" Unions are weak. Come on take charge of YOURSELF for once - only YOU know what is best for YOU, not some Union reps asshat or some elected official in Washington who things you "NEED" this or that because you can't do it or survive without it.

Bottom line - Take charge of your own life, you don't "need" their supposed "help"

CkG

This is the first time I think I have EVER agreed with you CkG

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

You are welcome. I came to the realization that no matter what I said I wasn't going to change your opinion so I took the easy way out and just cut and paste.

It's educational that you have such little confidence in your opinion.

Ad hominem - takes the legs out of your argument.

 

[CanOWorms]

Things like this make people have such negative views of unions. They appear to be nothing but lazy, violent thugs. I hope they lose. Even if he is a 'scab' he is legally doing his work and shouldn't be harassed by people with the mental skills of a 3 year old.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: DaiShan

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Medicated858

Originally posted by: Lucky

first off nobody makes $17/hour, that is just a token figure.

I've read firsthand interview with checkers who think their job is something to keep for life since it pays so much. Yes, these people DO get paid that much. Yes, the COL is higher in california but to make nearly 40K for a skills free job....and then to bitch about having to pay a little more in health care premium is outrageous! (Why do union workers ALWAYS think they are exempt from having to pay higher health care costs?)

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Try talking to actual baggers, which I have, they don't make anywhere near that type of money. Try actually reading what they are taking away from the workers. They are cutting their pensions plans and their medical plans and freezing their wages for two years. News flash genius without unions you'd still be getting paid $1 an hour. Unions are the reason we actually have reasonable wages, no no by all means lets go back to the early 1900's where corporations owned workers and there was nothing they could do about it.

Wow - you sure do know a lot of things that aren't so

Without a Union the baggers would NOT be getting paid $1/hr. Now I know your going to blabber on about how the Union saved the worker way back when, but thats fine - Unions served a purpose back then. Now days though they aren't needed. People are more informed, free moving, and not as loyal to a company(they switch jobs often). This means that if you don't like an employer and how they treat/pay you - you can leave. Wow - what a concept. Taking personal responsibility for your own job/income - whodda thunk it.

People who "NEED" Unions are weak. Come on take charge of YOURSELF for once - only YOU know what is best for YOU, not some Union reps asshat or some elected official in Washington who things you "NEED" this or that because you can't do it or survive without it.

Bottom line - Take charge of your own life, you don't "need" their supposed "help"

CkG

This is the first time I think I have EVER agreed with you CkG

Thank you
:beer::beer:

CkG

 

[Ferocious]

I've yet to see anyone come up with disadvantages for collective bargaining where the people get to VOTE.

There is a reason corporations hate to bargain collectively......it've because the worker will usually get a fairer deal for themselves.


Quite a simple concept really.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Ferocious
I've yet to see anyone come up with disadvantages for collective bargaining where the people get to VOTE.

There is a reason corporations hate to bargain collectively......it've because the worker will usually get a fairer deal for themselves.


Quite a simple concept really.

I think one of the disadvantages is that it organizes dangerous thugs to beat up normal, law-abiding citizens seeking honest work. Someone once posted an article about these thugs beating up a stock boy on AT.

 

[imported_Mike]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Ferocious
I've yet to see anyone come up with disadvantages for collective bargaining where the people get to VOTE.

There is a reason corporations hate to bargain collectively......it've because the worker will usually get a fairer deal for themselves.


Quite a simple concept really.

I think one of the disadvantages is that it organizes dangerous thugs to beat up normal, law-abiding citizens seeking honest work. Someone once posted an article about these thugs beating up a stock boy on AT.