CAFTA Passes House

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: cquark
As a result, reverse engineering is essential to our technology-driven economy. The IBM PC would not have led to PC boom of the 1980s or the Internet boom of the 1990s if other companies like Compaq hadn't reverse engineered it to produce their own compatible machines.

That's not exactly true. The IBM PC was copied because IBM allowed it to be legally. Apple did not. That's why there are IBM "compatible" computers and not MAC "compatible" computers. And the internet came out of DARPA which has nothing to do with copy right infringment issues.

Reverse engineering to design a better but different product is perfectly legitimate. But that is not what is done by poor countries. They reverse engineer to copy. Since a significant portion of our economy is based on innovation, copy cats would kill our economy.

 

[dahunan]

Now the US Corps will have a chance to reverse engineer the 3rd world countries slave labor markets and atttempt to duplicate it here in the US

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: tss4

Originally posted by: cquark
As a result, reverse engineering is essential to our technology-driven economy. The IBM PC would not have led to PC boom of the 1980s or the Internet boom of the 1990s if other companies like Compaq hadn't reverse engineered it to produce their own compatible machines.

That's not exactly true. The IBM PC was copied because IBM allowed it to be legally. Apple did not.

The DMCA didn't exist then, so IBM couldn't use it to forbid what Compaq did, but Compaq did not make their clone with IBM's consent. To avoid being sued by IBM, Compaq had to use "clean room" reverse engineering techniques with a Chinese Wall model. One team wrote specs based on IBM's BIOS and a separate team that wrote Compaq's BIOS was never allowed to see any IBM source code.

That's why there are IBM "compatible" computers and not MAC "compatible" computers.

Apple couldn't use the law to forbid clones either, but they did put far more of their OS, including high level graphics routines, into their ROMs, making their ROMs far more difficult to reverse engineer. Apple claims that everyone who tried to make a Mac clone like the Unitron illegally copied their ROMs instead of legally reverse engineering them, but the clone makers disagree.

And the internet came out of DARPA which has nothing to do with copy right infringment issues.

I know that, which is why I didn't mention the invention of the Internet, but instead referred to the Internet boom, i.e. the commercialization of the Internet, which was a result of many people being able to compete on a playing field that was level either because of open standards or because of standards that it was legal to reverse engineer.

Reverse engineering to design a better but different product is perfectly legitimate. But that is not what is done by poor countries. They reverse engineer to copy. Since a significant portion of our economy is based on innovation, copy cats would kill our economy.

That's the reasoning which the US government has applied, but it clearly contradicts the idea that these are "free trade" agreements and that they're intended to benefit third world countries.

However, the deeper problem with the current regime of copyright and patent extremism is that we're killing our own ability to innovate. These laws are written by large corporations to protect their own interests at the expense of smaller innovators. We've seen them abused again and again.

Court cases against MP3.com, Napster, and the like which would've been decided more along the lines of the cable TV cases in the past before the DMCA shut down the Internet boom earlier than it would've been without government interference. This week we've seen Cisco using the DMCA to suppress security research that they dislike, which is far from the first time that's happened (see what happened Ed Felten and Seth Finkelstein.)

 

[ExpertNovice]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Jadow
It's official, the Dems are NOT Free Traders despite all their rhetoric. Dems in the house almost unanimously voted AGAINST free trade and in favor of Tariffs and government meddling with business.

Luckily, the Repubs are in the majority for a reason, and they had enough votes to Git R Done.

It's Official, the Repubs have sold the U.S. down the river. Congrats

There are many reasons to vote against a bill that sounds wonderful. Campaign Finance Reform. Not many would have voted if it were called End Right to Free Speech.

I don't know enough about CAFTA other than the rhetoric from both sides. I was against NAFTA because it was decidely unbalanced. Thus, in NAFTA, Free Trade was not really free trade.

I heard quotes like these from democrats calling in to talk shows yesterday and I don't understand the reasoning.

Originally posted by: boredhokie
Now US factory works can compete with Columbian slave labor along with Mexican factories, way to go! Profits per share now, who gives a #### about tomorrow?

Look how the liberal organizations are trying to stop via harrassment, law suits, intimidation, and physical force the Minutemen who are monitoring and reporting felons that are illegally crossing the borders into the United States. These same groups are saying the same thing that bored states.

What I don't understand is this. The reason liberals give for wanting felons to enter our country is to help them because their economy is so bad. So, CAFTA should help their economy but the same liberals that say let the felons enter illegally so we can help them argue that we should not help them.

Thus, support the felons penalize the honest citizens. I see this with gun control. Let the felons who use guns in the commission of a crime off with a light sentence but punish the honest citizen for defending their life against the same felons.

It is almost as if they want people to be hurt so more control can be placed on the honest citizen.

Hmmm, that fits with the anti-Jewish and anti-Christian sentiment but pro-Muslim. It also fits with the liberators are terrorists and the terrorists are freedom fighters now sometimes called bombers.

Regardless of this pattern. I will have to read more about CAFTA and why some voted for or against rather than some rhetoric that says Central America Free Trade means Free Trade.

Remember, if someone comes up to you and says, "Hi, I am from the government and I'm here to help you" count your fingers after they shake your hand.

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: tss4

Originally posted by: cquark
As a result, reverse engineering is essential to our technology-driven economy. The IBM PC would not have led to PC boom of the 1980s or the Internet boom of the 1990s if other companies like Compaq hadn't reverse engineered it to produce their own compatible machines.

That's not exactly true. The IBM PC was copied because IBM allowed it to be legally. Apple did not.

The DMCA didn't exist then, so IBM couldn't use it to forbid what Compaq did, but Compaq did not make their clone with IBM's consent. To avoid being sued by IBM, Compaq had to use "clean room" reverse engineering techniques with a Chinese Wall model. One team wrote specs based on IBM's BIOS and a separate team that wrote Compaq's BIOS was never allowed to see any IBM source code.

That's why there are IBM "compatible" computers and not MAC "compatible" computers.

Apple couldn't use the law to forbid clones either, but they did put far more of their OS, including high level graphics routines, into their ROMs, making their ROMs far more difficult to reverse engineer. Apple claims that everyone who tried to make a Mac clone like the Unitron illegally copied their ROMs instead of legally reverse engineering them, but the clone makers disagree.

And the internet came out of DARPA which has nothing to do with copy right infringment issues.

I know that, which is why I didn't mention the invention of the Internet, but instead referred to the Internet boom, i.e. the commercialization of the Internet, which was a result of many people being able to compete on a playing field that was level either because of open standards or because of standards that it was legal to reverse engineer.

Reverse engineering to design a better but different product is perfectly legitimate. But that is not what is done by poor countries. They reverse engineer to copy. Since a significant portion of our economy is based on innovation, copy cats would kill our economy.

That's the reasoning which the US government has applied, but it clearly contradicts the idea that these are "free trade" agreements and that they're intended to benefit third world countries.

However, the deeper problem with the current regime of copyright and patent extremism is that we're killing our own ability to innovate. These laws are written by large corporations to protect their own interests at the expense of smaller innovators. We've seen them abused again and again.

Court cases against MP3.com, Napster, and the like which would've been decided more along the lines of the cable TV cases in the past before the DMCA shut down the Internet boom earlier than it would've been without government interference. This week we've seen Cisco using the DMCA to suppress security research that they dislike, which is far from the first time that's happened (see what happened Ed Felten and Seth Finkelstein.)

Good response.

I agree that some of the copy right laws can at times stifle competition. However, with regard to the 3rd world, the aren't attempting to innovate... they're attempting to copy.

 

[waddles]

I read this forum and I recently posted something like this but it was locked and the mods told me to move it here so here it is and I haven't chanegd it I just made it into paragraphs instead of one big rant.
....................................................................................................................
This is just amazing. They just passed CAFTA! I cannot believe it! Incase you did know CAFTA is just like NAFTA only is stands for Central American Free Trade Agreement. I mean how does this benefit us? What does Central America have to offer us and why do we want it? I can't believe crap like this goes on. I am so upset! Google this and you'll see why. Or go to Fortune Magazine's website there is a lot of upsetting information about just how great are country is.

And why are we still trading with China?! They threaten us with nukes if we help Tawaiin when they invade it. Because we have a document that says if Tawaiin is under attack we will help to defend it in a military sense and China says if we do they will nuke us. How about that? And this wasn't even on the news. Oh and those extra border patrol promised to us and the better "refining" of meat for mad cow did that happen? No! Why? Because they found out it was too expensive. Well glad to see we mean so much.

And a very large percentage of people in prison are illegals and they get free medical care but if I need a new heart I might as well shoot my self because I'll go broke paying for it. Illegals bring in viruses, etc. into our country everyday for example at a Tyson chicken "butchery" they found about 50 illegal employs with Tuberculosis. Also there is the bird flu which has no cure and kills everyone who gets it oh and leprosy to. Isn?t our country great?

Oh and don't forget the Minute Men. If you have heard of them. The news makes them seem like red neck vigilantes but read more and you'll see what they really are. The Minute Men are being threatened by a gang of illegals from Central America but the government is doing nothing to protect citizens against people who shouldn't even be here. They gang (which has 1,000s of members) says they will start cutting off the heads of the Minute Men (who are unarmed and doing nothing illegal).

Oh and if you think Congress has your best interest in mind you are sorely wrong. There is only one Independent in Congress and he voted against CAFTA. GO INDEPENDENT! Although most Democrats did but that's just because the Republicans wanted it passed. You can only tell you actually cares about you and your family by how they vote (if it is a dumb bill trying to be passed by Republicans the Democrats usually vote against it just because and visa versa but if they are a Republican and vote against their dumb ideas then they are on your side also visa versa for Democrats). And do those bills need to be thousands of pages long? No! That is just so no one reads them.

Ah things need to be changed around here. People need to start caring a lot more. It has to start now or there won't be an America. Oh do you like having a Cadillac? Or have always wanted one? Well enjoy because they are opening a brand new sparkling plant in China while Hyundai builds their new plant over here on our soil making hundreds of new jobs. Funny little circle eh? I'm so happy my grandfather went through heck to keep this great country intact. God rest his soul.

 

[conjur]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=989294

CHARLOTTE, N.C. Jul 29, 2005 ? For weeks, Rep. Robin Hayes, R-N.C., was colorfully adamant in his opposition to the Central American Free Trade Agreement.

"What does CAFTA sound like? NAFTA," Hayes declared. "It's not in the best interests of a core constituency I represent. Every time I drive through Kannapolis and I see those empty plants, I know there is no way I could vote for CAFTA."

But an hour into what is normally a 15-minute roll call and still short the votes needed to avoid handing President Bush an embarrassing defeat Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., told Hayes he could promise increased GOP attention to the challenges China poses to the domestic textile industry.

Hayes switched his vote, and the agreement passed 217-215.

Well, well, well. Ol' Denny twisted Hayes' arm to wring out that last vote. Nice to see the rules of the House were followed re: vote times. Not like the GOP has ever extended it beyond 15 minutes (much less 3 hours - *cough*Medicare bill*cough*)

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: conjur
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=989294

CHARLOTTE, N.C. Jul 29, 2005 ? For weeks, Rep. Robin Hayes, R-N.C., was colorfully adamant in his opposition to the Central American Free Trade Agreement.

"What does CAFTA sound like? NAFTA," Hayes declared. "It's not in the best interests of a core constituency I represent. Every time I drive through Kannapolis and I see those empty plants, I know there is no way I could vote for CAFTA."

But an hour into what is normally a 15-minute roll call and still short the votes needed to avoid handing President Bush an embarrassing defeat Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., told Hayes he could promise increased GOP attention to the challenges China poses to the domestic textile industry.

Hayes switched his vote, and the agreement passed 217-215.

Well, well, well. Ol' Denny twisted Hayes' arm to wring out that last vote. Nice to see the rules of the House were followed re: vote times. Not like the GOP has ever extended it beyond 15 minutes (much less 3 hours - *cough*Medicare bill*cough*)

Wasn't there a female Republican congresswoman that told people on TV that she was against CAFTA, then turned around and voted for it?

 

[conjur]

Not sure, but it's possible ol' Denny's hands are quite dirty!

Did Speaker Hastert Accept Turkish Bribes to Deny Armenian Genocide and Approve Weapons Sales?
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/10/1346254

But that's going off-topic...I'll place the detail of that elsewhere