California school can ban US flag.

[Geosurface]

The Europeans had Europe and still came to America any way. Sounds like hypocrisy on your part.

What it sounds like is siding with my own people over others (gasp what a shock!) and perhaps more importantly, the fact that I'm not in a position to hop in my time machine and stop manifest destiny, small pox blankets, whatever else. What I can do is be opposed to something going on currently. If both displacements are wrong, it's a lot more productive to oppose the one that can still be mitigated and stopped.

 

[Subyman]

I see, you have free speech unless someone violent threatens you. Then for your own safety the government will force you to shut up. !@#$ the flag, !@#$ your rights, national security.

Heaven forbid we deal with violent individuals who'd attack our flag. Much easier to deal with the peaceful individuals and restrict their peaceful action.

Students don't have free speech in schools...

 

[CanOWorms]

The influx of Mexicans into the US brings:

• A change in the US's culture and demographics.
• Higher crime.
• Higher poverty.
• Higher gang activity.
• Greater expenses for our nation in terms of schooling, policing, multilingual accomodation.
• Increased ethnic conflict between Hispanics and blacks, Hispanics and whites, etc.
• Increases possibility of us losing territory.
• Complete violation of what our founding fathers like Thomas Jefferson intended for this country to be.
• Leads to problems like "don't hire anymore teachers or staff without Hispanic surnames" and the teacher who was fired in Arizona a couple of years ago for complaining that her students would conduct 90% of class discussions in Spanish, which she doesn't speak, in a state where the official language is English.
• Means more people automatically eligible for Affirmative Action, which increases unfairness.

The US needs a change in culture and demographics. Change in culture and demographics will force us to destroy white privilege and lead the US to become stronger economically, politically, etc. Right now too many people are coasting on white privilege (and other privileges). An America where people work to achieve what they have would be a strong America.

A lot of the gang, policing, etc. stuff are around because white privilege dictates our laws and policing. Those will change.

It also increases the possibility of increasing our territory. For example, Mexicans will probably be more in favor of annexing large parts of Canada than white Americans with generations of roots and families across both countries.

Thomas Jefferson is not the only founding father. In fact, the US is still being founded. Founders include MLK Jr., Cesar Chavez, and even non-Americans like Gandhi! Founders even include Native Americans back from before the time of Jefferson.

Plus, Mexicans already have Mexico. Their nation is incredibly hypocritical about immigration based on how they handle their southern border. A great deal of the Mexican immigration here is illegal. That should bother anyone. It should also bother someone when an illegal immigrant uses an unintended consequence of our laws to have babies here who are citizens. It encourages that same illegal immigration and it's gaming the system.

They are a net loss to our society because they send a great deal of their income out of the country and they use more taxpayer money in services than they put in.

So the real question is, why would any American in their right mind not disagree with Mexicans coming here? I guess it just comes down to whether you want your nation to survive, or whether you want to feel warm inside knowing you're very tolerant. It's one or the other.

I want our nation to survive, so we need to make sure we don't become some bizarre white supremacist stronghold.

 

[Geosurface]

No coincidence at all that a Google search for that forthcoming book returned a day old Stormfront thread applauding what it may contain. Geosurface, while tolerated, continually doing all he can to practically equate the AnandTech P&N to one of the most notoriously hateful white-supremacist sites on the internet.

I found out about the book from John Derbyshire's "Radio Derb" podcast. Was unaware of that thread. I suspect they spend a lot of time talking about immigration at Stormfront, that doesn't make everyone who is concerned about immigration into Adolf Hitler, in case you're too stupid to realize that.

I've known about Nicholas Wade and some of the articles he's written on recent human evolution for a good while now.

It's the frigging New York Times, it's their science writer... and here you are trying to act like the book is some sort of Stormfront thing? You are fucking unbelievable, man.

How about, for once, you actually have the balls to address what the book talks about? Rather than just plugging your ears and screaming "it's racist, it's racist, it's racist!" over and over?

I'm sorry, bud - but sometimes there are facts about our world and our species that just aren't completely pleasant, but can still be very important for us to be aware of. Do you get this worked up about recent studies showing differences in how male and female brains work, too? Were you upset when they found women see colors better than men?

 

[They Live]

What it sounds like is siding with my own people over others (gasp what a shock!) and perhaps more importantly, the fact that I'm not in a position to hop in my time machine and stop manifest destiny, small pox blankets, whatever else. What I can do is be opposed to something going on currently. If both displacements are wrong, it's a lot more productive to oppose the one that can still be mitigated and stopped.

Well, I think your first mistake is calling Europeans "your people". You are way too hung up on race. Just because you have the same skin color as someone else doesn't mean you'll have anything in common with them. Which is why I find the notion of white or black "culture" to be hilarious. What is white culture supposed to be any way? Conservatism? Sure, a significant portion of whites identify as conservative, but then again a significant portion doesn't.

 

[Geosurface]

Well, I think your first mistake is calling Europeans "your people".

Were you upset when Eric Holder referred to blacks as his people?

Just because you have the same skin color as someone else doesn't mean you'll have anything in common with them.

It means I have a great deal of genetic code in common with them, and it means I probably have a lot of shared history in common with them. The history of various European nations has a lot of overlap, interconnections, and similarities.

What is white culture supposed to be any way?

The enlightenment, industrial revolution, Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Stonehenge, Notre Dame, Big Ben, Thomas Jefferson, exploration, scientific advancement, Christianity, Thor, Woden, Druidism, the Russian tzars, Athens, Rome, etc etc etc...

 

[CanOWorms]

The enlightenment, industrial revolution, Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Stonehenge, Notre Dame, Big Ben, Thomas Jefferson, exploration, scientific advancement, Christianity, Thor, Woden, Druidism, the Russian tzars, Athens, Rome, etc etc etc...

Don't forget Islam.

 

[They Live]

Were you upset when Eric Holder referred to blacks as his people?

Yes. Stupid remark on his part, especially since he undoubtedly has a lot of European blood in him.

It means I have a great deal of genetic code in common with them, and it means I probably have a lot of shared history in common with them. The history of various European nations has a lot of overlap, interconnections, and similarities.

genetic code? Who cares. Shared history is also irrelevant. Your average person doesn't give a crap about the supposed "shared history" they have with other complete strangers.

The enlightenment, industrial revolution, Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Stonehenge, Notre Dame, Big Ben, Thomas Jefferson, exploration, scientific advancement, Christianity, Thor, Woden, Druidism, the Russian tzars, Athens, Rome, etc etc etc...

So because other people with the same skin color as you and I accomplished some great things, somehow makes that our culture?

 

[Geosurface]

genetic code? Who cares. Shared history is also irrelevant. Your average person doesn't give a crap about the supposed "shared history" they have with other complete strangers.

So because other people with the same skin color as you and I accomplished some great things, somehow makes that our culture?

There's very little I can do to make you understand this. All I can tell you is that I used to think exactly as you do now, and that of course I understand that everything humans value now or ever have valued is almost entirely subjective.

I believe there are good historical, cultural, and scientific reasons to value the concepts our ancestors did like "blood" and "kin" and "folk" - but even if I were to enumerate those you could easily just declare you didn't give a crap about any of it. So I won't bother.

All I'll say is that I believe there were good reasons why they valued those things, and that any people who decide to no longer think like that or care about those things will cease to be. Or at the very least, will drop greatly in number and influence and lose a lot of territory.

So I guess these are subjective values I embrace because I think they have what I consider to be positive results.

I encourage you to read the book I mentioned earlier in this thread which comes out in May, by the NY Times science writer. It should prove to be a very tame, politically sensitive representation of some of the less explosive information science is bringing to light. The jist of it is, your notion (and it is a very common one) that all people are completely interchangeable and the only difference is in appearance, is just simply flat out false and that the idea that the cultural legacy and great accomplishments you mentioned exist entirely independently from genetics, isn't something you should be so confident of.

 

[The_AC]

I find it cute that the crowd supporting "Slutwalks" has a lot of overlap with the crowd saying a school can ban American flag clothing in order to make the people wearing that clothing less likely to get attacked.

 

[michal1980]

Students don't have free speech in schools...

then ban the Mexican flag instead of the American flag, at least if your in America.

 

[Meghan54]

The enlightenment, industrial revolution, Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Stonehenge, Notre Dame, Big Ben, Thomas Jefferson, exploration, scientific advancement, Christianity, Thor, Woden, Druidism, the Russian tzars, Athens, Rome, etc etc etc...

What I find interesting is that much of what you list as "white European" accomplishments are directly due to Arabic influence.

Take the architecture you've pictured. Much of it, created between the 12th century and the 17th century, were directly influenced if not copied from earlier Arabic architecture, like the the Great Mosque of Damascus, created in the 8th century. The mosque of Ibn Tulun in Cairo, with its pointed arches, was the inspiration behind the building of many magnificent cathedrals in Europe.

Designs from the Islamic mosques of Jerusalem, Mecca, Tripoli, Cairo, Damascus, and Constantinople were borrowed in the building of ribbed vaults in Europe. The Arab use of cubal transitional supports under domes was incorporated into the cathedrals and palaces of eleventh and twelfth century Palermo.

In fact, if not for the Arabs, much of the science of the world would have been lost during the Dark (Middle) Ages in Europe.

Take medicine. The Arabs were vastly more advanced than European contemporaries. One of the most important medical works to be translated was Avicenna's The Canon of Medicine (1025), which was translated into Latin and then disseminated in manuscript and printed form throughout Europe. It remained a standard medical textbook in Europe until the early modern period, and during the 15th and 16th centuries alone, The Canon of Medicine was published more than thirty-five times.

Science.....Arabian culture was much more advanced than Europeans in mathematics (which is why we call our number system the Arabic number system, not to mention the creation/invention of the concept of the number 0-zero, unheard of in Europe), physics, alegbra (which Arabic culture invented), trig, calculus, astronomy, and on and on.

Crop introduction to Europe from Arabic trade also stimulated Europe's growth. The Middle East and China were both far advanced in agriculture compared to Europe.

To hold forth the Renaissance as the shining example of Europe's intellectual prowess and thinking it happened in isolation is just naive at best, for the truth is if not for Arabic influence in Europe from trade, the Renaissance probably wouldn't have happened.

Oh, and the inclusion of Christianity as an example of "your people's marvels" is to include the Jewish people. Guess you're part Jewish, right?

Now, no culture developed in isolation but all were influenced by others due to trade. But European cultures were more the recipients than donaters of culture before the Reinassance period. And much of what the Europeans took was from Arabic and Chinese cultures.

And the Norse? Maybe they took navigation lessons from the Polynesians, who were plying the oceans between about 3000 and 1000 BC, well before the Vikings were a wet dream.

 

[Geosurface]

I realize it is VERY fashionable these days to try to downplay the living shit out of all European accomplishments, using truth, fiction, exaggeration, and minimization. Encountering such arguments is therefore no surprise whatsoever. That's fine.

Let me be clear: I fully understand and acknowledge the important contributions of Arabia and Asia. I respect and admire those accomplishments. I understand that many of them were important to Europe's progress.

But the fact remains, as you said... there has been cross-pollination of ideas and discoveries between many societies throughout history. It was not a one way street. The fact is, we will probably never know the exact scope of that for the distant past. Suffice to say, there was definitely a lot of it going on, and you're right to say that Europe benefited plenty from it.

However, I think Europeans have accomplished MORE THAN ENOUGH (by a very, very large margin in fact) philosophically, scientifically, creatively, technologically and in every other way - to justify Europeans and people of European heritage taking a great deal of pride in that legacy.

Some people will assert that taking pride in anything other than your own personal achievements is silly, and that is actually exactly how I felt for many years, but that is actually an unusual view from a historical context, and I believe such feelings are not only natural but highly adaptive as well.

If you're the type of person who has allowed your mind to get into a pattern of thinking where you are constantly looking for ways to undercut such feelings, and pick them apart, then such feelings will elude you until you change that mindset. If you view such feelings as problematic, you'll be fine with that. As I said, though, I believe they are adaptive.

 

[FerrelGeek]

I wonder what would happen if the Mexican students wore Mexican flag t-shirts or ones that said RECONQUISTA!! on Veteran's day? I'd bet good money that the schools would preach tolerance to the US kids and come down on them hard if they saw any evidence of said US kids 'starting sh*t'. And I'd bet the 9th circuit would defend the Mexican kid's rights to freedom of expression.

That being said, there's a big part of me that says we should just give Cali back to Mexico. Let all those guilty white libs live under an enlightened government.

 

[Newell Steamer]

What movement (group,... or even one person) currently exists, in CA, where they do want to ban the American flag from the schools?

 

[Geosurface]

It's pretty obvious they did it as an attempt to troll the "hispanic" students. Although in fairness, both parties probably were stirring up trouble.

Yea, but mostly the Mexican students:

"In the aftermath of the students’ departure from school, they received numerous threats from other students. D.G. was threatened by text message on May 6, and the same afternoon, received a threatening phone call from a caller saying he was outside of D.G.’s home. D.M. and M.D. were likewise threatened with violence, and a student at Live Oak overheard a group of classmates saying that some gang members would come down from San Jose to “take care of” the students. Because of these threats, the students did not go to school on May 7."

"This is a classic “heckler’s veto” — thugs threatening to attack the speaker, and government officials suppressing the speech to prevent such violence. “Heckler’s vetoes” are generally not allowed under First Amendment law; the government should generally protect the speaker and threaten to arrest the thugs, not suppress the speaker’s speech. But under Tinker‘s “forecast substantial disruption” test, such a heckler’s veto is indeed allowed.

...the situation in the school seems very bad. Somehow, we’ve reached the point that students can’t safely display the American flag in an American school, because of a fear that other students will attack them for it — and the school feels unable to prevent such attacks (by punishing the threateners and the attackers, and by teaching students tolerance for other students’ speech). Something is badly wrong, whether such an incident happens on May 5 or any other day.

And this is especially so because behavior that gets rewarded gets repeated. The school taught its students a simple lesson: If you dislike speech and want it suppressed, then you can get what you want by threatening violence against the speakers. The school will cave in, the speakers will be shut up, and you and your ideology will win. When thuggery pays, the result is more thuggery. Is that the education we want our students to be getting?"

Source: Washington Post

 

[Sea Ray]

The problem here isn't so much that kids wore American flag shirts. It's that they did it specifically to try to incense the Mexican American population at the school. It'd be the same if a student intentionally wore a Confederate flag shirt during black history month. This situation comes close to the "yelling fire in a crowded theater" exception to free speech. It's being done due to safety concerns. If the students weren't doing it specifically to attempt to start a racial fight, then there'd be no problem with it.

They're not trying to start a fight. They're just saying this is America and we support our country. Do you think the white kids would punch out a Latino for wearing a Mexican flag on the 4th of July? Someone's got a violence issue here. This is a strange way for these school officials to deal with this

 

[Geosurface]

They're not trying to start a fight. They're just saying this is America and we support our country. Do you think the white kids would punch out a Latino for wearing a Mexican flag on the 4th of July? Someone's got a violence issue here. This is a strange way for these school officials to deal with this

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[MrPickins]

It means I have a great deal of genetic code in common with them, and it means I probably have a lot of shared history in common with them. The history of various European nations has a lot of overlap, interconnections, and similarities.

Humans share 99.9% of our DNA. You share a great deal with everybody.

Hell, we share 99% of our DNA with chimps and bonobos. Are you going to claim their "culture" as well?

Regardless, culture is about far more than genetics, and to say at all of Europe shares a culture is silly.

 

[Matt1970]

You are lying, Matt1970. This ain't a case of simply the "sight" of a flag.

Well done in a poor attempt to spin the truth out of reality.

Lying can suit an argumentative purpose best when contextual reality conflicts with your position.

The countering manufactured display of the US flag was presented to specifically incite, attack and diminish any US identity for those students who dared to celebrate Cinco de Mayo. It was a bigoted demonstration of who tried to prove more of an American and who else were aliens. The school justifiably acted to prevent/diminish the clear incitement to conflict. That pure laine supremacy falls right in line with the racist agendas of some other members here who have all too enthusiastically piled into this thread in defence of the legally chastised Arizona good'ol boys.

Pfft. Let me phrase this in a different way. That fact that a flag can enrage someone no matter how it is used shows a problem with the people being enraged by it. If I found out you were offended by the American flag and you were my neighbor, I would probably go by 150 flags and fly them in my front yard just to piss you off as would a lot of Americans. Now read this next part slowly so it sinks in: That is not racism.

 

[Geosurface]

Humans share 99.9% of our DNA. You share a great deal with everybody.

Hell, we share 99% of our DNA with chimps and bonobos. Are you going to claim their "culture" as well?

Regardless, culture is about far more than genetics, and to say at all of Europe shares a culture is silly.

Right, we share 98.8% of our DNA with chimps and 50% of our DNA with bananas. Dog breeds are separated by an incredibly small variation in DNA between them.

Yet, dog breeds vary wildly in every conceivable way. Whether it be aggression, intelligence, friendliness, suitability to be around children, ability to be trained advanced tricks, essentially "built in" behaviors or capacity to learn behaviors (like pointing to prey, or herding sheep) which other breeds are simply incapable of learning, etc, etc etc.

And the small difference in DNA between humans and chimps is just yet another thing which reinforces the fact that very small changes in DNA can have ENORMOUS impact in the resulting organism's potential and behavior and intelligence, and capacity for invention, building civilizations, and going to the moon.

Everything we consider as making us truly "human" is contained within that 1.2% DNA gap between us and chimps. The thing is, it's contained in a considerably smaller amount than that though. Because the gap was much less between us and Homo Erectus and other extinct hominids. We shared far more than 98.8% DNA with them and yet, they were utterly incapable of creating civilizations like we are without first becoming us.

The genetic changes which permitted high level civilization to arise may be contained within a much smaller fraction of a percentage point than anyone wants to entertain. It may not be universal to all living human groups.

Anyway, to get back to your point... yes, I do share a great deal with all human beings. But sharing a great deal of DNA with another organism doesn't cut it. I share 97.5% of my DNA with a mouse. No, for it to be meaningful to me I need to share an absolute SHIT LOAD of DNA to the point where my genome is almost indistinguishable from the other organism aka almost all of it. That is obviously the case at the level of immediate family members and nobody denies that. I consider it to also be the case at the level of my fellow Irish-descended peoples and at the level of other Europeans or what are commonly called "whites."

That doesn't stop me from having a great deal of affection and admiration for more distantly related humans, which indeed I do. But it does mean that having particular affection and solidarity with those whose DNA is absurdly similar to mine, is justifiable given how much difference a very small change can bring.

This is all obviously somewhat subjective and the dividing lines people have used have changed a great deal over the ages. All I can say is that the line I use, while not absolute, seems fairly intuitive to me and to a lot of other people. You are certainly welcome to use another one, or not use one at all.

Regarding Europe sharing a culture, I would just say that if you compare the culture and history of England for instance, to Switzerland let's say... you're going to be much more struck by similarities than if you're comparing England to Botswana. I think there is a cultural cluster any honest person can perceive.

 

[MrPickins]

wall-of-text

Has anyone ever told you that there is something to be said for succinctness?

Settle down, I know how genetics works, and was mostly messing with you about it.

Regarding Europe sharing a culture, I would just say that if you compare the culture and history of England for instance, to Switzerland let's say... you're going to be much more struck by similarities than if you're comparing England to Botswana. I think there is a cultural cluster any honest person can perceive.

Similar is does not mean the same.

Ask a Frenchman and an Englishman if they share the same culture.

 

[Geosurface]

Has anyone ever told you that there is something to be said for succinctness?

Yes, I've often been told I'm long-winded. I have been for as long as I can remember, and I'm fully aware of it. It doesn't appear to be something I can easily change about myself.

Ask a Frenchman and an Englishman if they share the same culture.

I think you and I probably both agree that a widening of the "circle of brotherhood" beyond what people in say, the 1800's felt it to be, is desirable in our time. I suspect you probably believe that it should be widened to encompass all of humanity. I happen to believe that it should have levels, and that although one level should indeed be widened to encompass all of humanity, a much higher level should be reserved for those who are more closely related to one's self genetically.

This is really not a crazy notion at all, it's simply an expansion of the idea of one's family. There's no logical reason why the only valid answers to the question of who is your "family" should be either "immediate nuclear family members" or "the entire friggin' species" - I believe the correct answer is in between.

 

[zinfamous]

Ninth Circuit Appeals Court...say no more.

what about this?

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Court-strikes-California-law-restricting-5232386.php


Is this one of those "They are only protecting the constitution when I think they are protecting the constitution!" type of things?

 

[zinfamous]

Remember folks: there exists a fine line between patriotism and abject dickholery.