California to recognize 3rd Gender Type for ID

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Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
My question is, what exactly is the harm of going with a third gender option? (Besides riling up those who clutch pearls whenever they see mention of non-cisgender people, that is.)

To me, it's no different than letting a transgender person go by their new name; it better reflects their identity and can help officials make some informed choices. You aren't going to make intersex, gender-fluid or androgynous people go away by insisting their driver's license says "M" or "F" on it.
It's not so much harm as it is ackowledging or accomodating something that doesn't truly exist.

I say we use birth as the determining factor. No doctor is going to say, "congratulations, its an X!" With the exception of say some couples in the Bay Area, Cambridge and Brooklyn, no parent is going to declare their child has a gender of "X" at birth. The only outlier is Intersex, because they exist as a true biological scenario.

So lets go with M, F and I.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,033
4,798
136
I could go along with M for male, F for female and H for hermaphrodite which are all biological genders.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,964
18,279
146
I already did, but will explain it again.

Most liberals start conversations on race from a position of systemic racism. That there are undeniable truths to any conversation on race, and that an undercurrent of white privilege prevents the conversation from moving forward.

What I am suggesting is that conversations on gender identity must similarly start from an acknowledgment of biological privilege. There are undeniable biological truths to any conversation around gender identity. No amount of hormone therapy or reassignment surgery or ID cards or bathroom access or pronouns can change those biological truths.

It was an analogy to demonstrate that for conversations to be meaingful on either topic, they have to start from a position of certain truths. Dismissing biology as part of a conversation on gender is like dismissing systemic racism as part of a conversation on race.

so tapatalk didnt show this quote for some reason.

you've presented your concept. go on.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,964
18,279
146
It's not so much harm as it is ackowledging or accomodating something that doesn't truly exist.

I say we use birth as the determining factor. No doctor is going to say, "congratulations, its an X!" With the exception of say some couples in the Bay Area, Cambridge and Brooklyn, no parent is going to declare their child has a gender of "X" at birth. The only outlier is Intersex, because they exist as a true biological scenario.

So lets go with M, F and I.

bolded: when religious nuts are accommodated in facets of our society, i dont see a problem accomodating others.

if you wanna stick with real or not real, then its gonna go right back to belief.

shit, put an R on the license instead of a gender. wear a version of reality proudly.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,964
18,279
146
so those of us who dont think like that get to watch it unfold, helpless and realizing the futility of our votes.

and just like any other team sport, you get the pleasure of veing chastised and ridiculed for being a outsider.
 
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nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,585
7,825
136
OH THERE WILL BE!
When they start suing the state to get separate bathrooms, jails, prisons, dorms, sports (leagues), clothing stores, and everything else.
Shit, just wait till we free the slaves. They'll be demanding their 40 acres and a mule. And then boom, there goes the economy, and we'll be just like Mexico.

#ConservativesAreAlwaysWrong
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
It's not so much harm as it is ackowledging or accomodating something that doesn't truly exist.

I say we use birth as the determining factor. No doctor is going to say, "congratulations, its an X!" With the exception of say some couples in the Bay Area, Cambridge and Brooklyn, no parent is going to declare their child has a gender of "X" at birth. The only outlier is Intersex, because they exist as a true biological scenario.

So lets go with M, F and I.

So in other words, you want to take a giant shit on transgender people and everyone else with complicated gender situations, all because you can't conceive of physiological differences in gender that aren't tied to someone's genitalia.

How about we say no to your idea, and treat them as human beings deserving of dignity and respect? I much prefer that strategy.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
So in other words, you want to take a giant shit on transgender people and everyone else with complicated gender situations, all because you can't conceive of physiological differences in gender that aren't tied to someone's genitalia.

How about we say no to your idea, and treat them as human beings deserving of dignity and respect? I much prefer that strategy.
I can't conceive of something that only exists in certain people's heads.

A MTF transgender person may concincingly look, act and feel like a woman, but she can never conceive a child, will never menstruate and for certain gender specific medical conditions and realities, still has to function within certain biological realities and constraints. Similarly, a F2M trangender person may have a beard, a square jaw and the physical attributes of a male, but can still get pregnant and will need to see a gynecologist for certain things.

You are confusing two very different things. You can extend dignity and respect to trangender people while also applying a little common sense to certain irreversible truths.

I'll ask the questions again that you and others refuse to answer.

How does a doctor assign gender at birth, since you can't climb into the head of a baby.

Is it fair that biological girls should have to compete against opponents with the physical and genetic advantages of being male?

When colleges make dorm room assignments, where do they assign a gender fluid person?

Why is it that many second wave feminists take offense to M2F transgender people because they feel that they present themselves not as woman, but as a male's interpretation of what a woman is. A similar dynamic exists with F2M transgender people.
 
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Nov 25, 2013
32,083
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I can't conceive of something that only exists in certain people's heads.

A MTF transgender may concincingly look, act and feel like a woman, but she can never conceive a child, will never menstruate and for certain gender specific medical conditions and realities, still has to function within certain biological realities and constraints.

You are confusing two very different things. You can extend dignity and respect to trangender people while also applying a little common sense to certain truths.

I'll ask the questions again that you and others refuse to answer.

How does a doctor assign gender at birth, since you can't climb into the head of a baby.

Is it fair that biological girls should have to compete against opponents with the physical and genetic advantages of being male?

When colleges make dorm room assignments, where do they assign a gender fluid person?

Why is it that many second wave feminists take offense to M2F transgender people because they feel that they present themselves not as woman, but as a male's interpretation of what a woman is. A similar dynamic exists with F2M transgender people.

Your concern is overwhelming. Soooo much concern. Too much to be healthy for you.

It concerns me.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Why would I bother? None of that actually 'concerns' me. It's culture wars bullshit.

btw, looked at what your federal govt and president have been up to lately?
You are sure dedicating a lot of "concern" to something that doesn't concern you.

Yes, there are other threads dealing with those topics
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,137
382
126
C'mon, it's freaking California. They're already so deep down that particular rabbit hole that it should be impossible to shock anyone. If their next move was to make drivers licenses digital so that a person could change gender ID instantly based on how they self-identified at that particular instant would anyone really be surprised? Hmmm, today I feel like a bi-sexual Asian wombat...click...done.

The only thing here that's puzzling is that the licenses don't contain a space for a personal pronoun. You just know that someone is going to sue if they identify as a woman and get called sir.

"Your self driving car is a cross dresser because it's a muscle car wearing a bra!" Californian probably.

 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,964
18,279
146
I can't conceive of something that only exists in certain people's heads.

A MTF transgender person may concincingly look, act and feel like a woman, but she can never conceive a child, will never menstruate and for certain gender specific medical conditions and realities, still has to function within certain biological realities and constraints. Similarly, a F2M trangender person may have a beard, a square jaw and the physical attributes of a male, but can still get pregnant and will need to see a gynecologist for certain things.

You are confusing two very different things. You can extend dignity and respect to trangender people while also applying a little common sense to certain irreversible truths.

I'll ask the questions again that you and others refuse to answer.

How does a doctor assign gender at birth, since you can't climb into the head of a baby.

Is it fair that biological girls should have to compete against opponents with the physical and genetic advantages of being male?

When colleges make dorm room assignments, where do they assign a gender fluid person?

Why is it that many second wave feminists take offense to M2F transgender people because they feel that they present themselves not as woman, but as a male's interpretation of what a woman is. A similar dynamic exists with F2M transgender people.

so you arent a religious person? good to know, as that's conceived only in peoples heads.

ill answer the two questions:

1. Lifes not fair. Ive seen plenty of girls playing sports that are not petite girly girls. they are strong, and fast.

2. Colleges will need to decide that.

someone else brought up car insurance, who can charge different rates by gender. this didnt happen right away, its based on data revealing a trend. so, when insurance has data to compile, maybe we can have a more solid answer.

challenges like you and space something are not overlooked in these decisions.

theres no gender fluid boogeyman hiding under the bed. its gon a be ok. maybe thank CA for exercising states right. after all, that's what fought a civil war over, right??
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
so you arent a religious person? good to know, as that's conceived only in peoples heads.

ill answer the two questions:

1. Lifes not fair. Ive seen plenty of girls playing sports that are not petite girly girls. they are strong, and fast.

2. Colleges will need to decide that.

someone else brought up car insurance, who can charge different rates by gender. this didnt happen right away, its based on data revealing a trend. so, when insurance has data to compile, maybe we can have a more solid answer.

challenges like you and space something are not overlooked in these decisions.

theres no gender fluid boogeyman hiding under the bed. its gon a be ok. maybe thank CA for exercising states right. after all, that's what fought a civil war over, right??
I'm agnostic. The religious right and the snowflake left equally annoy me because neither recognizes fact, reason or science.

Stop being obtuse on sports. Yes there are female athletes that dominate the field due to genetic advantages, but the reasons why there are seperate professional leagues for men and women speaks for itself. Why do liberals so readily accept science and correlation relative to climate change, but gender is some mystical enigma?

Colleges can't even handle real world problems, they are ill equipped to handle 1st world ones.

But you are correct. States are the incubators of democracy. If the people of CA want to legitimize fantasy, they have every right to, just as red states push the equally absurd war on Christianity narrative. I want CA to solve such problems, since it can't solve pension solvency, traffic, housing, corruption or sexual harassment in its two tent pole industries: entertainment and tech. Then you wonder why Hillary ran up the score in NY and CA but lost reliably left blue collar strongholds.
 
Reactions: SlowSpyder

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
I can't conceive of something that only exists in certain people's heads.

A MTF transgender person may concincingly look, act and feel like a woman, but she can never conceive a child, will never menstruate and for certain gender specific medical conditions and realities, still has to function within certain biological realities and constraints. Similarly, a F2M trangender person may have a beard, a square jaw and the physical attributes of a male, but can still get pregnant and will need to see a gynecologist for certain things.

You are confusing two very different things. You can extend dignity and respect to trangender people while also applying a little common sense to certain irreversible truths.

I'll ask the questions again that you and others refuse to answer.

How does a doctor assign gender at birth, since you can't climb into the head of a baby.

Is it fair that biological girls should have to compete against opponents with the physical and genetic advantages of being male?

When colleges make dorm room assignments, where do they assign a gender fluid person?

Why is it that many second wave feminists take offense to M2F transgender people because they feel that they present themselves not as woman, but as a male's interpretation of what a woman is. A similar dynamic exists with F2M transgender people.

You do know there are genetic traits that may only manifest internally, right? And that just because you can't see it doesn't it's something you can change?

Yes, a transgender person has certain inescapable biological realities. But that doesn't mean you deliberately spit in their face by refusing to acknowledge their gender identity. And yes, that includes their ID -- insisting that their card says "M" when they've transitioned to being a woman is basically saying "you don't matter."

And hey, we'd gladly answer those questions as best we can, so long as you ask them without the implication that you're going to dismiss whatever answer we give.

At least until it's possible to definitively identify whether or not someone will be transgender/gender-fluid/etc., you start with the birth sex and change ID if and when it becomes clear their gender differs. It's not that hard. The whole point is that ID isn't set in stone.

The sports question is complicated, but on the balance I'd rather allow transgender people in competitions for their gender than their birth sex. Is there a chance they'll have an edge? Maybe, but presuming they will is problematic, and the alternative is either humiliating them by making them compete with men or effectively telling them not to compete at all.

For dorm room assignments, it's simple: ask. Imagine that, actually getting input from a person instead of pigeonholing them!

And why do some take offense to transgender people? Probably because they have narrow definitions of masculinity or femininity. But in practice, I haven't actually seen this resentment manifest at all. Every transgender person I've known has just been trying to become comfortable in their own skin; every feminist I've known has been welcoming and supporting of transgender women. You're trying to portray the situation as if there's some significant backlash against transgender people among gender equality proponents, and that doesn't really appear to be the case.

Also, your line of reasoning strikes me as being based on a bad premise: that we must have neat and tidy answers for every question, right now, before you can accept non-cisgender people as valid. That everyone must have the exact same consensus before you can move forward. The whole point is to have these questions out there in the first place -- to acknowledge that gender and sex aren't inextricably linked and deal with the questions as they come up, even if they don't have easy answers.
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,964
18,279
146
I'm agnostic. The religious right and the snowflake left equally annoy me because neither recognizes fact, reason or science.

Stop being obtuse on sports. Yes there are female athletes that dominate the field due to genetic advantages, but the reasons why there are seperate professional leagues for men and women speaks for itself. Why do liberals so readily accept science and correlation relative to climate change, but gender is some mystical enigma?

Colleges can't even handle real world problems, they are ill equipped to handle 1st world ones.

But you are correct. States are the incubators of democracy. If the people of CA want to legitimize fantasy, they have every right to, just as red states push the equally absurd war on Christianity narrative. I want CA to solve such problems, since it can't solve pension solvency, traffic, housing, corruption or sexual harassment in its two tent pole industries: entertainment and tech. Then you wonder why Hillary ran up the score in NY and CA but lost reliably left blue collar strongholds.
the snowflake left, lol. its funny how you say that, yet the right is literally comprised of snowflakes. Projecting is what they do. Your subjective observations of how #bothsidesdoit isnt based on reality. the left will accept science, facts, and reasons readily, guess who doesn't.

what percetage of the population plays professional sports? why should that change what we accept from our general populace?

im realistic on sports. almost no one who plays sports makes it professionally, if thats your measuring stick, i suggest you break it and make a new one.

hows the complaining when a girl goes througb the process of becoming a boy, and makes the team. will you be there to scoff or appluad?

if youre truly agnostic, then you wont have a problem with this situation, as you readily admit that you simply dot have all the answers, keeping an open mind, and let other people live their lives without harming others.

show me a state that has solved all those problems.

edit: sorry for not quoting each piece individually, just to tough to do using the phone.

2nd edit: theres already colleges with co-ed dorms, so seriously, moot.
 
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