Californians......Vote NO on 30........and YES on 32!!! PLEASE!!!

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Pulsar

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2003
5,225
306
126
Which everyone knows will have the effect of drying up the money available to unions for this purpose, while at the same time will do nothing to the sources of corporate funding. Is there something in this measure which would require, for example, that a vote of all shareholders be taken, with proper notice, before any money can be used for political purposes? Show me where it is.

I understand why you don't like how the unions are getting the money, but the measure you support will silence one voice while allowing the diametrically opposing voice to have free reign. We need real reform, not this measure which is backed by conservatives who want to pick one winner and one loser in the political process. You can't reform politics by playing to a one-sided partisan agenda.

You nailed it. That prop only stops direct contributions by corporations and unions. Absolutely nothing is stopping them from running their own ads, etc, with the same money. This shoots the Unions in the foot finanacially compared to the corporations, because they'll lose a ton of money for campaigning if they can't steal it from Union 'dues'. Corporations will still spend the money, the Union.... "leaders" won't have it to spend anymore.

It's a horribly written proposition.

I don't like Unions, but neutering their biggest gun without putting some balancing on corporate spending for campaigns simply gives the corporations too much power.
 
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DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
You really ARE a dullard. I'm curious what your vested interest here is.

The simple facts are here:

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/California_Proposition_30,_Sales_and_Income_Tax_Increase_(2012)

The arguments are clear. The teachers union has spent over $7,000,000 pushing this prop. Let's get something straight: they aren't spending $7,000,000 to get new text books.

It's pretty clear from an outsider non-vested point of view that there is NO guarantee that any of this money will do anything for the schools at all. The really nice part is where they put a clause in the prop that says it can be used for anything EXCEPT paying administration. So it's ok to pay teachers with it.... just not the admins.

How you can't see this is insane. It's straightforward. If the money was meant for specific things, the law would have been written that way. It wasn't. It isn't.

Are you a teacher, by any chance?

No, but I know people who are teachers, and if Prop 30 fails, it will be disaster for our schools. Think of classrooms that are intended for 30 students, filed with 45 students. Think of no more libraries in at schools, old run down computers, books that far outdated. Think of no more sports, no more out of class activities.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
FYI other issues if Prop 30 fail include police no longer responding to crimes like burglary, and assault. If your house catches on fire, don't expect anyone to show up in a timely fashion. No money means no police and fire fighters.
 

Pulsar

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2003
5,225
306
126
No, but I know people who are teachers, and if Prop 30 fails, it will be disaster for our schools. Think of classrooms that are intended for 30 students, filed with 45 students. Think of no more libraries in at schools, old run down computers, books that far outdated. Think of no more sports, no more out of class activities.

FYI other issues if Prop 30 fail include police no longer responding to crimes like burglary, and assault. If your house catches on fire, don't expect anyone to show up in a timely fashion. No money means no police and fire fighters.

I sure hate to break this to ya, but your state is BANKRUPT. Newsflash:
1. Your state has no money.
2. That '5th biggest world economy' Californians like to brag about is a drag on the entire country because of your debt.
3. You're losing hundreds of thousands of people each year.
4. Companies are leaving because of your tax structure.

While you're playing the 'think of the children' card, your entire tax structure is collapsing while people leave. Yet instead of the public sector doing what a company would do (see Ford's example), you're trying to raise taxes. Which just makes even more people want to leave.

You're stuck in a classic left-wing death spiral. Hey, I admire many of the social system systems Democrats endorse. However, you have to have conservative spending at the same time, or those systems will stagnate your whole economy and bury you in debt.

Instead, you tax more, which drives out more companies and people, which erodes your tax base, which means you tax more.

At the same time, you've got your fingers shoved in your ears and are going "NANANANANANANA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" as everyone else in the country is trying to tell you that you're about to crash and burn.

Someone in that state needs to grow a pair balls. They need to start with the pensions, and do exactly what Ford did to save themselves. Sorry folks. Due to your stupid mismanagement while you were in the public sector, we have no money left. So you aren't going to have much of a pension. You can take a one time buyout, or stick around with greatly reduced benefits.

Then you put a two tiered hiring system in place. Wages start at minimum wage, and you can work your way up. *GASP*.

It's truly horrible to have to live within your means. You and your state can tapdance all day, but at they end of that day there's only one thing that's going to save your state from becoming a bankrupt cesspool with no public services at all. Cut spending, and cut it NOW. Get it under control, and stop spending more than you bring in.

Don't worry though. As usual, you'll get the same slew of people coming in and saying that it isn't that simple. That you can't be successful living within your means. That a state isn't a person, and that you don't have to balance your checkbook. That you spend in the downturns and save (yeah....) in the upturns. Here's another news flash. They're full of shit. They're like a 500 pound man who constantly tells people he's starting a diet. Tomorrow.

I live about 30 miles away from the place you're describing in your post. Failing schools. Police and fire that can't answer calls. So many abandoned buildings that they don't have money to knock them all down. So much infrastructure that they can't keep it running. So many social programs that don't work. Run by Democrats for the last 50 years, who couldn't keep their checkbook or their dicks in their pants. Detroit. Take a look at the parallels sometime. Yeah, Detroit doesn't have your location, nor your weather. But you'll see exactly what happens when people ignore the warning signs and don't get spending under control.

Keep tapdancing and finding ways to spend money. Remember when I mentioned someone in your state needs to grow a pair of balls? Clearly, you aren't that guy.
 
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Pneumothorax

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2002
1,182
23
81
You nailed it. That prop only stops direct contributions by corporations and unions. Absolutely nothing is stopping them from running their own ads, etc, with the same money. This shoots the Unions in the foot finanacially compared to the corporations, because they'll lose a ton of money for campaigning if they can't steal it from Union 'dues'. Corporations will still spend the money, the Union.... "leaders" won't have it to spend anymore.

It's a horribly written proposition.

I don't like Unions, but neutering their biggest gun without putting some balancing on corporate spending for campaigns simply gives the corporations too much power.

It's preferable to the current balance of power in Sacramento where 99% of new bills that pass benefit the following: 1. SEIU 2. CTA 3. Prison guard's Union 4. Illegals 5. Homosexuals 6. Hollywood 7. Welfare recipients. 8. 'Successful' green companies like Solyndra

Since when did CA announce a nice big new factory that's going to hire thousands of new workers? Sacramento likes to brag that 1000's of new businesses are started each year to replace all the ones leaving every day. What they fail to tell you is that these new 'businesses' are 1 man shops while the ones leaving have dozens or more workers.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,030
29,916
146
It's preferable to the current balance of power in Sacramento where 99% of new bills that pass benefit the following: 1. SEIU 2. CTA 3. Prison guard's Union 4. Illegals 5. Homosexuals 6. Hollywood 7. 'Successful' green companies like Solyndra

Oh NOes!!! those ebil homersexuals and dirty green companies and commy commy hollywood!

Oh NOoesss!!!!!!!

you sound like a bunker-dwelling relic of the fifties.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,030
29,916
146
Since when did CA announce a nice big new factory that's going to hire thousands of new workers? Sacramento likes to brag that 1000's of new businesses are started each year to replace all the ones leaving every day. What they fail to tell you is that these new 'businesses' are 1 man shops while the ones leaving have dozens or more workers.

NUMMI

what a clusterfuck of a story, though I'm not sure what is going on two years after this move by Tesla :\

But what is the point of expecting a need for this type of labor force, when this type of labor barely exists in the US anyway? Point is: no one is creating these factories b/c none of these companies want Americans to be doing these jobs.

fact is, CA has many thousands of job openings that go unfulfilled b/c the state is simply quite far ahead of what is happening in the rest of the country--labor force turnover. CA has a huge demand for hi tech, highly skilled labor, but the labor force simply isn't here.

The solution to our employment problems isn't to demand factories to be built by companies that will never build them, just because we need to hire a bunch of unemployed relics of the labor market--it's to get those relics back into school so they can adapt to the current economy, and stop telling kids and students they can simply get by in life with unskilled, low demand training.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,500
15,382
136
Not that it matters or that anyone cares but right now it looks like I'll be voting yes on 30 and yes on 32.

Prop 30
Section 2 i says the money can only go to schools and public safety and will have yearly audits. Section (B)(6) states that it can't be used for salaries or benefits of administrators or any other administrative costs.

Prop 32 is a start for me and although it gives corporations the upper hand because of super PACs but I don't care about equality I care about getting money out of politics (except when it's given by the people directly.
 

Yreka

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
4,084
0
76
Prop 32 is a start for me and although it gives corporations the upper hand because of super PACs but I don't care about equality I care about getting money out of politics (except when it's given by the people directly.

Exactly how I'm leaning as well.. It's not perfect, but its a start..

Considering the "against" campaign is currently spending 5X more than the "for", it must not be too beneficial for the corps (or they would have ponied up more $$)

This notion of waiting for a complete solution to come in a single proposition just isn't going to happen in the current political climate.

Put up a prop to neuter the super pacs, I'll vote for that too..
 

redgtxdi

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2004
5,464
8
81
Not that it matters or that anyone cares but right now it looks like I'll be voting yes on 30 and yes on 32.

Prop 30
Section 2 i says the money can only go to schools and public safety and will have yearly audits. Section (B)(6) states that it can't be used for salaries or benefits of administrators or any other administrative costs.

I highly recommend you read the following.

http://www.stopprop30.com/budget-ex...sma-explain-the-prop-30-school-funding-myths/

It's pretty much been exposed now by everyone as nothing but a general fund tax which will circumvent students to pay for the pension black hole. Read the full article in the link at the end too. It's just a shell game and allows them to allocate more money for themselves and not repay the money they use prop 30 for. It's as ugly as anything Browndoggle's ever done in the name of students. Jerry needs to go away!

Best part is that now even Molly Monger (38 tax) is now fighting prop 30 and since both appear to be tanking it looks like we will be able to enjoy not seeing either one of these new taxes come to fruition and cause Sacramento to have to make the cuts where they really need to be made. :thumbsup:
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,500
15,382
136
Who should I believe? The no on 30 website with no citation within the proposed law that's backs it's assertion or the proposed law itself which states where and how the funds can be used?

It's a tough one, luckily I read the law itself
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
I highly recommend you read the following.

http://www.stopprop30.com/budget-ex...sma-explain-the-prop-30-school-funding-myths/

It's pretty much been exposed now by everyone as nothing but a general fund tax which will circumvent students to pay for the pension black hole. Read the full article in the link at the end too. It's just a shell game and allows them to allocate more money for themselves and not repay the money they use prop 30 for. It's as ugly as anything Browndoggle's ever done in the name of students. Jerry needs to go away!

Best part is that now even Molly Monger (38 tax) is now fighting prop 30 and since both appear to be tanking it looks like we will be able to enjoy not seeing either one of these new taxes come to fruition and cause Sacramento to have to make the cuts where they really need to be made. :thumbsup:

Do you have any children? If 30 fails, children won't have any extracurricular actives to participate in any more. Programs like High School football will be canceled, as well as after school tutoring programs. Without sports to participate in, a larger percent of students will just drop out H.S.

Are you worried about crime? Don't be surprised if the police stop responding to robberies, and other serious crimes if 30 fails.

Street cleanup service could be gone in a flash if 30 fails.

Programs to help at risk youth will also be gone if 30 fails, their will be a steep rise in crime, along with a sharp drop in police force to combat this crime. Things will become much worst for all if 30 fails.
 

redgtxdi

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2004
5,464
8
81
Who should I believe? The no on 30 website with no citation within the proposed law that's backs it's assertion or the proposed law itself which states where and how the funds can be used?

It's a tough one, luckily I read the law itself

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Prop-30-ads-confusing-3917833.php

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/oct/10/prop-30-ads-a-new-standard-in-dishonesty/

http://www.scpr.org/blogs/politics/...-30-ad-blitz-misleading-voters-opponents-say/

The law itself deceives you. Prop 30 money simply displaces a like amount out of the general fund for Sacramento to do other stuff with. They have been lambasted by almost every major news media and then even Molly Monger and her prop 38 tax crowd (especially when she revealed the lies) since a couple weeks ago when the new ads came out. Because most people, even smart people who READ the law (like yourself) won't know that it just frees money up on the back end. Another version of "kicking the can".

Just like Brown's train.

Just like Villaraigoosegg's subway to the sea.

They know that if they can earmark "more/extra" money in one place, that's enough to give them more money to play with elsewhere as they substitute these allocations.

NO ON PROP 30!!!!
 

Pulsar

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2003
5,225
306
126
Do you have any children? If 30 fails, children won't have any extracurricular actives to participate in any more. Programs like High School football will be canceled, as well as after school tutoring programs. Without sports to participate in, a larger percent of students will just drop out H.S.

Are you worried about crime? Don't be surprised if the police stop responding to robberies, and other serious crimes if 30 fails.

Street cleanup service could be gone in a flash if 30 fails.

Programs to help at risk youth will also be gone if 30 fails, their will be a steep rise in crime, along with a sharp drop in police force to combat this crime. Things will become much worst for all if 30 fails.

Remember what I said about sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "NANANANANANAN" when people tell you you're bankrupt? You're excelling at proving my point. You even mentioned the children. Nice.

Extracurriculars in most states are pay-to-play. I know every one in my state is. Especially ones that are STEM related, as sad as that is. No one steps up to stem, but damn do they donate to the Football team.

Ever seen the football field at most schools? With lights, bleachers, press boxes? How much money do you think the school sunk into that? Now you're going to whine that little Billy might have to pay to play football? Really? You SERIOUSLY think in California, where football is as near to religion as it is in Florida and Texas, that the schools won't make it work one way or another? For fucks sake, do you really expect people to take you seriously?

I'll ask once more though, what's your vested interest here? Are you or your wife/daughter/son teachers?

Street cleanup? You mean garbage men? We've had to pay for our own through local/city taxes for the last 10 years. It must suck for you to just begin to understand what it costs to do certain things. Or do you mean street sweepers? God, how could we live without Street Sweepers.
 
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rockyct

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2001
6,656
32
91
85.2% ( 20,874 of 24,491 ) precincts partially
reporting as of November 7, 2012, 2:42 a.m

Prop 30: Yes-53.5, No-46.5%
Prop 32: Yes-44.4%, No-55.6%

The proposition results can bump around a little towards the end of counting, but looks like 30 passed and 32 was defeated.
 

redgtxdi

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2004
5,464
8
81
Yep. Pretty unbelievable, but looks like Californians are just as foolish as they were in 2008.

30 will go and fund teacher black hole pensions which is a problem that will not go away and will be revisited every year until the state is bankrupt. All prop 30 does is extend that looming day on the horizon.

We give away billions for bullet trains that will never get built. Subways to the sea that don't go to the sea. Transit to LAX that doesn't go to LAX and we pass props like 30. This state truly deserves to break off and sink into the ocean.

Un-freaking-believable.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,030
29,916
146
Yep. Pretty unbelievable, but looks like Californians are just as foolish as they were in 2008.

30 will go and fund teacher black hole pensions which is a problem that will not go away and will be revisited every year until the state is bankrupt. All prop 30 does is extend that looming day on the horizon.

We give away billions for bullet trains that will never get built. Subways to the sea that don't go to the sea. Transit to LAX that doesn't go to LAX and we pass props like 30. This state truly deserves to break off and sink into the ocean.

Un-freaking-believable.

well, let's see if any of that actually happens. I have my doubts.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
You nailed it. That prop only stops direct contributions by corporations and unions. Absolutely nothing is stopping them from running their own ads, etc, with the same money. This shoots the Unions in the foot finanacially compared to the corporations, because they'll lose a ton of money for campaigning if they can't steal it from Union 'dues'. Corporations will still spend the money, the Union.... "leaders" won't have it to spend anymore.

It's a horribly written proposition.

I don't like Unions, but neutering their biggest gun without putting some balancing on corporate spending for campaigns simply gives the corporations too much power.

So making them play on an even field is bad? Equal treatment is wrong? If the unions were as powerful as you and others claim and as required by society, they would haveno problems getting the money from their members by asking for it. It should reveal to all of you just how bogus they are that they want their ability to steal from their members unimpeded in orer to compete and actually be the dominate political driving force in our state. All of you who voted no on 32 fuck you guys. You assholish pieces of shit who continue to grant the CTA all the power in the world to crus our states finances. Now they're going to make even more money now that 30 passed too. I am leaving California. I am gone in 2013, the rest of you have made it unbearable for me to live in the State I was born and raised in and love so much.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,030
29,916
146
So making them play on an even field is bad? Equal treatment is wrong? If the unions were as powerful as you and others claim and as required by society, they would haveno problems getting the money from their members by asking for it. It should reveal to all of you just how bogus they are that they want their ability to steal from their members unimpeded in orer to compete and actually be the dominate political driving force in our state. All of you who voted no on 32 fuck you guys. You assholish pieces of shit who continue to grant the CTA all the power in the world to crus our states finances. Now they're going to make even more money now that 30 passed too. I am leaving California. I am gone in 2013, the rest of you have made it unbearable for me to live in the State I was born and raised in and love so much.

how about: "no" and how about....you mean nothing to me?

[insert crocodile tears meme here]
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
how about: "no" and how about....you mean nothing to me?

[insert crocodile tears meme here]

Whatever, you will keep supporting the nonsense that is killing this state. You and all the other uneducated manipulated filth are a disease on this land. I really do not care what you think nor about you. I will leave this State next year and I won't look back as the rest of you dig a bigger and bigger hole. I just hope those who had nothing to do with the collapse don't pay a dime when the state comes asking for a bailout. Or do you think all the cities filing for bankruptcy isn't foreshadowing something grander?

Like I said fuck you, you are an ignorant piece of shit that falls all over yourself thinking unions are any different than corps, Both have internalized profit motives And both exploit and manipulate children to further their cause.
 

Pneumothorax

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2002
1,182
23
81
Yeah the vote last night just further made the case of the stupidity of CA voters. Seriously, when someone wants to extort $100,000 from you, do they kidnap your coffee table or your child?
 

stag3

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2005
3,624
0
76
wow i can't believe this bullshit 30 passed.....
idiots played the "for the children" card perfectly
this state is over, time to move
 
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