California's water woes, solution?

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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,130
37,417
136
Good start. The most effective way to solve this is also the easiest, raise the price. Demand seems to be far exceeding supply (thus the water supply is being steadily depleted). Price the water higher to the point where demand decreases enough to stabilize the water supply. Will it suck paying a lot more for water? Sure. But that's the reality of living there.

Given that and the new higher price of water, the rest of your ideas would happen via market incentives. It is all the sudden more imperative and cost effective to fix leaky infrastructure, landscape your yard in plants made for that environment, not plant crops that don't belong there, etc.

I have no doubt that eventually the above will happen. How long until remains to be seen.

Increases in water pricing would help pay for said programs. I'd rather there be some sort of active plan in place rather than just jack the rates sky high and hope everyone figures it out.
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
Increases in water pricing would help pay for said programs. I'd rather there be some sort of active plan in place rather than just jack the rates sky high and hope everyone figures it out.

That's what has to happen though. The supply curve is artificially to low on the price end. It should move to the point where it is sustainable, adjustable to the rainfall and snow melt. Don't make it artificially low. Econ 101, the price has to reflect supply /demand. Right now the price is artificially low, it's not keeping up w demand.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,705
507
126
A massive project to build giant stills across up and down the coast to desalinate sea water.

Also if you live in the arid parts of CA a project to design and make stillsuits...

"For he is the Kwisatz Haderach!"
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
we are allowing a company to build a pipeline that will ship Canadian oil to wherever they want it shipped.

What resources of ours are we giving away?

The biggest one would be land. There are a lot of Americans not very happy with the expropriation of their farm and ranch land property for this pipeline. They also don't appreciate the potential ecological issues that would accompany the building of the line through their lands.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
The biggest one would be land. There are a lot of Americans not very happy with the expropriation of their farm and ranch land property for this pipeline. They also don't appreciate the potential ecological issues that would accompany the building of the line through their lands.

Eminent domain is always a rather touchy thing. For example it's perfectly Constitutional seize your home and bulldoze it to build a strip mall solely because it has the potential to generate more tax revenue. I find that an egregious use of power.

On the other hand we need highways and roads, and this is more like those in the sense it's a type of infrastructure. I would hope (although wouldn't expect) that those who have this run through their property are fairly compensated, and I do not mean by choosing the cheapest basis for land valuation.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
Part of the problem and solution as stated by other posters here is the subsidization of water rates to the biggest consumer of water in the state, i.e. the Californian agriculture industry. Of which those left picking up the tab are actually city and suburban dwellers who as a result are forced to pay higher water rates and are always pushed to enact water conservation policies first even when it rains normally across the state during the year.

Meanwhile these subsidized water rates to often incentivize CA farmers to plant crops that are water intensive (but more profitable) on their farms. Especially in the southern parts of California where most of the region is naturally a dry / desert region climate by default. Thus you can have years (which was true about 2-3 years ago) where even if it rains normally the state of California will still impose drought measure alerts and rationing in some areas because demand and use of water remains high across the state by CA's agriculture industry continues to grow in order to feed the needs of water intensive crops. Of which many are mainly for grown for export overseas.
 
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boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
The environmentalists in CA are going to screw up pretty much any plan that involves infrastructure. Building plants, building aquaducts, discharging into the ocean, the list goes on. Especially if there's a bug or a flower or maybe even special types of sand that will be affected. Now, if they get thirsty enough that may change but I wouldn't bank on it.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,130
37,417
136
The environmentalists in CA are going to screw up pretty much any plan that involves infrastructure. Building plants, building aquaducts, discharging into the ocean, the list goes on. Especially if there's a bug or a flower or maybe even special types of sand that will be affected. Now, if they get thirsty enough that may change but I wouldn't bank on it.

There is no mega project that could realistically alleviate the water shortage. Odds are the ag users are going to get cut back and they'll have to abandon land or change what they grow (and how they grow it). They use up to 80% of the entire water supply.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,130
37,417
136
California needs more reverse osmosis plants to pull water from the ocean.

RO should only be used as a minority supplement for municipal water supply since it is extremely expensive to build and operate. Dumping RO water to the farmers would be like using stacks of $20s to heat your house.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Radical idea. Stop the federal subsidies that are being paid primarily by people that will never benefit from them.

Let the farmers, that use 80% of the water, pay market prices for their water...

Uno

That's part of the problem with government. Conservatives ignore the external costs of corporate actions, but liberals seem to readily ignore all the externalities of big government.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,961
140
106
And where is the water / infrastructure support supposed to come from when the chain migration starts from all the illegal aliens?? When Arnold ran for governor he said calif.needs three more Shasta sized hydroDams just to break even on electricity and water i.e.population growth.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,252
10,841
136
Anybody that opposes building new reservoirs or opposes desalination plants on the coast should never be able to drink clean water again or complain about it.

Same goes for anybody that is against conservation and reuse.

One problem with reservoirs, the current canals and the way farmers use water, is there is an incredible amount of waste through evaporation. There are solutions at least to the first two, but they would be pretty expensive. I am sure there are solutions at the farm level also, and I am sure those also expensive. But before we start sucking the NW dry, maybe we should try to make better use of what we already have.
 
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DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
And where is the water / infrastructure support supposed to come from when the chain migration starts from all the illegal aliens?? When Arnold ran for governor he said calif.needs three more Shasta sized hydroDams just to break even on electricity and water i.e.population growth.

Considering the nature of CA politics it's going to come from the pockets of CA suckers....I mean taxpayers.
 

5150Joker

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2002
5,549
0
71
www.techinferno.com
RO should only be used as a minority supplement for municipal water supply since it is extremely expensive to build and operate. Dumping RO water to the farmers would be like using stacks of $20s to heat your house.

Cost goes down based on how much is invested in the RO plant. For example, this $1 billion dollar plant in Carlsbad will cost roughly $2000 an acre foot vs their current rate of $1000 acre foot. The article mentions $2000 an acre foot being enough for two families of four for a year so that's roughly $83/month per family. Expensive? Maybe but it's better than rationing water or not having access to it at all when there's no rain. If anything, it can be used to supplement the natural supply during harsh periods such as this. As more plants are built, their costs should also come down like any other technology. Hook them up to nuclear power plants and build more of those in California and that will help solve even more problems there. Problem is the environmentalists have run amok in California and are letting the state fall into chaos and bankruptcy.
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,512
2
81
Or should we stop populating inhospitable places?
This. It'd be better to spend the money improving hospitable places. Let inhospitable places become more inhospitable and more expensive to live in so foolish people won't live there.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,130
37,417
136
Cost goes down based on how much is invested in the RO plant. For example, this $1 billion dollar plant in Carlsbad will cost roughly $2000 an acre foot vs their current rate of $1000 acre foot. The article mentions $2000 an acre foot being enough for two families of four for a year so that's roughly $83/month per family. Expensive? Maybe but it's better than rationing water or not having access to it at all when there's no rain. If anything, it can be used to supplement the natural supply during harsh periods such as this. As more plants are built, their costs should also come down like any other technology. Hook them up to nuclear power plants and build more of those in California and that will help solve even more problems there. Problem is the environmentalists have run amok in California and are letting the state fall into chaos and bankruptcy.

That's pretty much what I said...

Also Carlsbad isn't even going to be operational until 2016 so I'm going to wait on claims as to what it's acre foot cost will be. RO should be a supplement to local municipal supply only and operated well after all conservation schemes are implemented.

It is probably a political impossibility to license more nukes in CA even if there was demand. It's also kind of hard to justify the many many billions in capital cost right now with NG prices at rock bottom.
 

5150Joker

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2002
5,549
0
71
www.techinferno.com
This. It'd be better to spend the money improving hospitable places. Let inhospitable places become more inhospitable and more expensive to live in so foolish people won't live there.

That doesn't really solve any problems. All it does is shift the population to places where water is and cause everyone else to live in cramped closets with skyrocket costs for everything.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Part of the problem and solution as stated by other posters here is the subsidization of water rates to the biggest consumer of water in the state, i.e. the Californian agriculture industry. Of which those left picking up the tab are actually city and suburban dwellers who as a result are forced to pay higher water rates and are always pushed to enact water conservation policies first even when it rains normally across the state during the year.

Meanwhile these subsidized water rates to often incentivize CA farmers to plant crops that are water intensive (but more profitable) on their farms. Especially in the southern parts of California where most of the region is naturally a dry / desert region climate by default. Thus you can have years (which was true about 2-3 years ago) where even if it rains normally the state of California will still impose drought measure alerts and rationing in some areas because demand and use of water remains high across the state by CA's agriculture industry continues to grow in order to feed the needs of water intensive crops. Of which many are mainly for grown for export overseas.

So instead of subsidizing water we should just pay more for food, right?

That'll help the little guy, I'm sure, huh?

You need a link to support that allegation about crops grown mainly for export if you're going to make it.
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,512
2
81
That doesn't really solve any problems. All it does is shift the population to places where water is and cause everyone else to live in cramped closets with skyrocket costs for everything.
Problem solved then by your own admission.

What you don't realize is that funding programs like this just causes costs to skyrocket for everyone else. It causes tax costs to skyrocket. It's cheaper to move people than to move all this water.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
And where is the water / infrastructure support supposed to come from when the chain migration starts from all the illegal aliens?? When Arnold ran for governor he said calif.needs three more Shasta sized hydroDams just to break even on electricity and water i.e.population growth.


Oooh! OOOh! Dragging illegals into it!

You know your audience, huh?
 
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