Calling all Civ Engs...How feasible would it be to build a trans-oceanic bridge?

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glugglug

Diamond Member
Jun 9, 2002
5,340
1
81
Originally posted by: DrPizza
Uh, I have a much better idea...

Why don't we get the lane dividers that go down the lengths of swimming pools... string a couple of them together across the ocean from NY to London, and call it a highway. Then, we just have to design "cars" that will drive on water. Compared to the trillion dollar figure for the tunnel floating in the ocean, I'd think this was a much more feasible idea.


You mean like this?
 

dkozloski

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,005
0
76
If it's worth bridging, the U.S Army Corps of Engineers can do it for you overnight with somebody shooting at them with heavy artillery. Ask Hitler how long them it took to get across the Rhine River. March 23, 1944 the 150th U.S. Combat Engineers put an M2 Treadway bridge across the Rhine River in about 12 hours while being attacked by 154 German aircraft. By the next day it was upgraded to where it would handle heavy tanks. A bridge from New York to London ought to be duck soup. .
 

Brucmack

Junior Member
Oct 4, 2002
21
0
0
Originally posted by: martind1
Originally posted by: Witling
Then there is the fact that water transportation is the cheapest form of shipping goods known to man.

That is a fact? cause shipping isnt cheap.

got numbers?

Have you ever sent a package overseas? It costs much less for surface transport than air mail.
 

kyu614

Member
Aug 8, 2002
133
0
0
Originally posted by: dkozloski
If it's worth bridging, the U.S Army Corps of Engineers can do it for you overnight with somebody shooting at them with heavy artillery. Ask Hitler how long them it took to get across the Rhine River. March 23, 1944 the 150th U.S. Combat Engineers put an M2 Treadway bridge across the Rhine River in about 12 hours while being attacked by 154 German aircraft. By the next day it was upgraded to where it would handle heavy tanks. A bridge from New York to London ought to be duck soup. .

A river is a LOT different from an ocean, and the US army core of engineers do more "black box" engineering than actual design work
 

dkozloski

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,005
0
76
The US Army Corps of engineers oversees and approves every dam and waterway project that takes place in the US whether it is inland or on the coast if it involves wetlands or navigable waters.. If you start to build an intercontinental bridge the first place you will have to go is to them. Go have a look at the bridge to Key West, Florida. It looks like a pretty good start to me.
 

ReiAyanami

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2002
4,466
0
0
who would drive that far?! (go insane from hearing "are we there yet?")

and would there be gas stations or...
 

martind1

Senior member
Jul 3, 2003
777
0
0
Originally posted by: Brucmack
Originally posted by: martind1
Originally posted by: Witling
Then there is the fact that water transportation is the cheapest form of shipping goods known to man.

That is a fact? cause shipping isnt cheap.

got numbers?

Have you ever sent a package overseas? It costs much less for surface transport than air mail.

So you have no numbers then do you? water transportation is not neccessarily the cheapest. You will not find any cheap water treansport for over night mail (liek air mail).

its all persepctive.

train would be ideal.
 

OulOat

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2002
5,769
0
0
Originally posted by: martind1
Originally posted by: Brucmack
Originally posted by: martind1
Originally posted by: Witling
Then there is the fact that water transportation is the cheapest form of shipping goods known to man.

That is a fact? cause shipping isnt cheap.

got numbers?

Have you ever sent a package overseas? It costs much less for surface transport than air mail.

So you have no numbers then do you? water transportation is not neccessarily the cheapest. You will not find any cheap water treansport for over night mail (liek air mail).

its all persepctive.

train would be ideal.

WTF, the reasons you don't find overnight mail delivery for water is because a) ships aren't fast b) most cities aren't by a river. Water shipment is the cheapest, no perspective about it. How do you think every import good gets shipped? It sure as hell ain't air.
 

Tango57

Senior member
Feb 22, 2004
311
0
0
Statistically speaking it's safer to fly than drive. The construction of urban infrastructure projects nowadays costs millions of dollars. The price tag for megaprojects, such as the Confederation Bridge or the Big Dig in Boston for example runs into billions of dollars so I can't begin to imagine the cost it would take to do such an undertaking as building a trans-oceanic bridge. I also don't think I'd want to be driving on a bridge during a hurricane with gale force winds and 100 foot swells pounding beneath me.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
Originally posted by: sao123
Self Service...pay by plastic only...
Vending machines....

Automation.

Those debit/credit reader things have a habit of not working sometimes. Whenever they do, the entire bridge is essentially useless due to a small transmission error.
Also, with a bridge attached to the seafloor, there's a bit problem over the Atlantic ocean anyway - the Trans-Atlantic Ridge. The ocean is separating. After awhile, it'd start to split the bridge in half.
That link to the Discovery Channel is interesting. I'd just hate to think of what would happen if there was some problem with the train halfway through the trip. Or a fire. If the train's hull is breached, the air will rush out into the surrounding vacuum. Sure, the fire will go out, but then there's suddenly another problem.
And then there's hurricanes, or the occasional underwater earthquake, sending out tsunamis.
One more thing I just thought of - power failures. As I understand it, the magnetic fields are electrically generated; I could be wrong there though. I know that at least the lateral motion part of it is done electromagnetically, but maybe not the hovering. Either way, if power fails, the train will not be able to stop, or, it could just crash into the rail at 5000mph. I wonder how long the acceleration process would take too? It'd be like a roller coaster if they want to get to 5000mph quickly.

In any case, this would be an incredibly expensive undertaking. The tunnel would have to shuttle people back and forth a LOT to make it profitable anytime soon. Either that, or charge a few billion dollars per ticket.
 

martind1

Senior member
Jul 3, 2003
777
0
0
WTF, the reasons you don't find overnight mail delivery for water is because a) ships aren't fast b) most cities aren't by a river. Water shipment is the cheapest, no perspective about it. How do you think every import good gets shipped? It sure as hell ain't air.


Oh silly little boy. Obviously you don't understand the reason why things get ship via water. Its a volumn thing.


You pretty much just don't understand the business world. Shipping has different costs. Time and Money. Then you options are limited by the route that must be traveled. Obviously shipping or air is ther only way to get from Eurasia to the americas. You ca't use trains or trucks for that route.

Frieghters are fro large volumn shipping only. You will never send small amounts over a ship unless neccessary. Remember now that cost is not just a money thing. Its a time/money thing.
 

1) your time/money thing is self defeating because shipping large volumes on boats saves both time and money or just money if you were planning on overnighting everything, which is just stupid
2) you dont have to ship large volumes on boats, well i guess that depends on your version of "large", you can ship only a couple crates on someone else's boat
3) "So you have no numbers then do you? water transportation is not neccessarily the cheapest. You will not find any cheap water treansport for over night mail (liek air mail)." ummm, whats that have to do with the bling bling? As you said, its unavailable, there's no discussion here, only refusal to be wrong. BTW, there's no airmail to places without air ports either. So what?

This has nothing to do with perspective. There is no way around it, over all shipping on a boat is cheaper. Granted situations exist in which this is not the case, but that is not a different perspective, thats being stupid. The average price per pound mile is less expensive on a boat, if this wasn't the case then why do you think boats are so common?

Oh, and BTW time and money? Your the one who has it wrong. Its only money, it just so happens that under certain (most) circumstances time = money.
 

kyu614

Member
Aug 8, 2002
133
0
0
you guys should ship stuff to each other and calculate the costs, then you will have numbers
 

Shalmanese

Platinum Member
Sep 29, 2000
2,157
0
0
Okay, hypothetical: You need a consignment of widgets which are neccesary to make your gizmos. You can either choose air shipping or ground shipping. Air shipping costs $2m and gcan get here tomorrow while ground costs $100,000 and can get here in a week. Meanwhile, you can't make any widgets yet you still have to pay wages/maintenence/admin costs to the tune of $1m a day. So, factoring in total costs we get:

air: 2m shipping + 1m operating = 3m
ground: 0.1m shipping + 7m operating = 7.1m
 

kyu614

Member
Aug 8, 2002
133
0
0
Originally posted by: Shalmanese
Okay, hypothetical: You need a consignment of widgets which are neccesary to make your gizmos. You can either choose air shipping or ground shipping. Air shipping costs $2m and gcan get here tomorrow while ground costs $100,000 and can get here in a week. Meanwhile, you can't make any widgets yet you still have to pay wages/maintenence/admin costs to the tune of $1m a day. So, factoring in total costs we get:

air: 2m shipping + 1m operating = 3m
ground: 0.1m shipping + 7m operating = 7.1m

WHAT?!? How can you just post random numbers like that just to make your point correct. You cant possibly need $6m for one week of wages/maintanence/admin. If you are going to make numbers up, at least make it somewhat reasonable.

What if you are making your stuff in a sweat shop?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: martind1
Originally posted by: Witling
Then there is the fact that water transportation is the cheapest form of shipping goods known to man.

That is a fact? cause shipping isnt cheap.

got numbers?

Stack 10,000 containers(you know the ones that are 45 foot long) on a ship and let it travel at 25knotts/hour. And you will realize how cheap ship transport is.
 

ZeroNine8

Member
Oct 16, 2003
195
0
0
Many of you are confusing cost of shipping with cost of doing business. Cost of shipping is money/weight/distance (such as $0.50 per pound per mile). Cost of doing business is when you must balance out time and money. It may be worth it for you to pay extra for fast shipping if it saves you lost production time, as in the examples given above, but this is not a factor in the cost of shipping, this is the cost of doing business.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
Originally posted by: kyu614
Originally posted by: Shalmanese
Okay, hypothetical: You need a consignment of widgets which are neccesary to make your gizmos. You can either choose air shipping or ground shipping. Air shipping costs $2m and gcan get here tomorrow while ground costs $100,000 and can get here in a week. Meanwhile, you can't make any widgets yet you still have to pay wages/maintenence/admin costs to the tune of $1m a day. So, factoring in total costs we get:

air: 2m shipping + 1m operating = 3m
ground: 0.1m shipping + 7m operating = 7.1m

WHAT?!? How can you just post random numbers like that just to make your point correct. You cant possibly need $6m for one week of wages/maintanence/admin. If you are going to make numbers up, at least make it somewhat reasonable.

What if you are making your stuff in a sweat shop?


Don't sweat it. Use his example against him. Okay, Air shipping costs $2m and can get here tomorrow. While Ground costs $100,000 and can get here in a week. So hire someone competent, do a little planning in your company, and you'd have ordered them shipped about 1 week ago. Thus, ground and competent people doing the ordering is cheaper.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,924
259
126
Trans-Oceanic "heavier than water" trains via a suspended rail line would be more feasible. Enough armor on the unit and you don't need to stabilize pressure inside and out of the train. But on the other hand it is much easier to move over the surface of water than through it.
 

Thermistor

Junior Member
Feb 27, 2004
22
0
0
And how many thousands will die during its construction? Fun stuff.

>As soon as I make my first trillion I'll put it into this project

Yes, no one would ever question the size of your penis if you were to do something like that.
I also have an iceberg to sell you.

>Self Service...pay by plastic only...
>Vending machines....

You would also need motels, as it is a very long trip.


Aside from bridges and tunnels, what about submarines? How would this compare to the cost of flying? Particularly that a sub can be much larger than an airplane, for practical purposes.
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
92
91
first of all, what would you construct it out of? concrete you say? sorry, wrong answer. concrete piers have to be a minimum of 8" thick to support a force of 10kips. to give you an example, a bridge of 3 lanes (approx 30 feet wide) would have to be 12 inches thick, and concrete is 150lbs/cubic foot. so per linear foot in the long direction, the bridge would weigh 4.5kips. that isnt even accounting for outside forces, such as the wind, water, traffic, and the weight of the steel beams which would be located under the bridge to keep it from crumbling like a cracker. the weight of the piers, which i will explain in a minute, would also add a huge quantity of weight to each section of the bridge.

the problem with piers is that when you make them very long, the weight of the actual pier excedes its capacity. this problem can be overcome with lateral reinforcment with steel of almost an inch thick placed at 4 equidistant places from the perimeter. the real problem for support would be how to keep these piers from shearing right in half. concrete design is usually a product of many equations in statics related fields. this kind of project would most definitely be related to the dynamics part of it. keeping concrete (which undoubtedly would crack like a mother fvcker in this case) from shearing (even with steel thicker than what is on a suspension bridge) would be impossible. as a matter of fact, i designed a foundation for a parking garage a few weeks ago and in order to have it support 45kips/pier, we needed something like 20" in diameter by 35 feet deep. just a side note...finding a contracter to do this who is worthy of such a daunting task is nearly impossible. anyways, back on topic, so to use concrete would be an unbelievable waste of resources as you would have to thicken the base to several feet (as in greater than 20 feet) per pier and in order to hold heavy trucks/semi's, the piers could be no further apart than about 25 feet. obviously these are just a product of the equations and properties of concrete, so the real world variations and imperfections would change the actual strength of the bridge. now, say you used steel. first, where would you get that much steel? sure, it wouldn't crack, but it is not totally different from concrete in regard to its tensile strength. after long periods of time, steel will deflect where concrete would have sheared, but deflection in the Y, X, or Z directions would be equally as bad if something were to travel on it at high speed. this type of bridge is simply impossible to build based on our current knowledge of materials and their properties.

also, as others have brought up, this is such a long trip...you would need a place to sleep, many places to get gas, and some entertainment. personally, if this project were to come to fruition, i would need a strip joint every 500 or so miles. also, you know some asshat would terrorize this bridge in some way. surely some moron would drive a truck with a couple thousand pounds of dynamite or the likes and detonate as soon as they crossed into the USA. i think this kind of traffic flow would bring in much more terrorism because transporting "goods" would be 1000000x easier.



edit: i would never want to travel in a submarine as a form of regular transportation. i realize it wouldnt be so tight in there if all of the military machinery were to be extracted, but still, its a big tin can and people who are clostorphobic (sp?) would go crazy and sink the boat (not sure how, but stupid people always amaze us).
 

wacki

Senior member
Oct 30, 2001
881
0
76
I saw an episode on discovery channel (maybe it was the history channel, not sure) about building a berring straight to alaska bridge. It was pretty interesting. They showed how it would be possible, how the pillars had to be specially shaped to lift and split ice, how to work around wind, what kind of concrete to use, etc. Then they went into the cost, it was something like rediculous amount, but strangely enough, the US could afford it. It was an interesting show, not only because of the technology they talked about, but just also because somebody actually spent the money and time to do all of the research needed to build a bridge that would probably never even be built because of the cost/practicality factor. They actually built swimming pools that could freeze over, made model scales of the bridges, and then forced the model bridge through the ice to simulate the stress of glacier activity.
 

wacki

Senior member
Oct 30, 2001
881
0
76
Originally posted by: Witling
Then there is the fact that water transportation is the cheapest form of shipping goods known to man.

Couldn't of said it better
 
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