Camelot Unchained (yes, daoc revisioned)

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Skott

Diamond Member
Oct 4, 2005
5,730
1
76
I'm debating whether to contribute. I been reading up and watching videos about this game. Now I'm toying with the idea of dropping $75 and getting in on the beta testing side of things. I've never done kick starter contribution before. Not sure I like the idea of putting in money before a game is even built. Heck, I dont even like MJ after the fuck up he did with DAoC but I would like to see this type of gaming again. Hmmm...
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
145
106
www.neftastic.com
It's no fun if there's no adversity. Griefers and asshats are simply part of the landscape in PvP and you either learn to accept that or not.

Hmm... I might swayed to be interested ONLY if they forced permadeath.

I still find it funny that ya'll are essentially dropping tons of money essentially just to, and I quote, "beta test" this. Gone are the days of $10 pre-order "cover charges" for beta tests I guess.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
I'm torn. I want a good pvp mmo as much as anyone. But I feel that without PvE, this is just going to be a big glorified arena, like Battlefield 3 with magic and swords. Maybe that idea appeals to some, not me.
 

imaheadcase

Diamond Member
May 9, 2005
3,850
7
76
Hmm... I might swayed to be interested ONLY if they forced permadeath.

I still find it funny that ya'll are essentially dropping tons of money essentially just to, and I quote, "beta test" this. Gone are the days of $10 pre-order "cover charges" for beta tests I guess.

Have you never heard of kickstarter before?
 

Skott

Diamond Member
Oct 4, 2005
5,730
1
76
Well, its true that these KS games get more money from the fans than just buying it at a store. Which is why so far I have refused to give anyone any money. On one hand it irks me to pay for something not completed or even barely started. On the other it kind of intrigues me.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
145
106
www.neftastic.com
Have you never heard of kickstarter before?



It's one thing to ask for $10 or $20, or even the purchase price of a retail box game ($40-50)... but even you have to admit that these $100-200 packages that are becoming the norm on these projects is getting kind of ridiculous.

Yes, I understand this one includes "subscription time", which on its own as I've already discussed is an even bigger affront. Still...
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0


It's one thing to ask for $10 or $20, or even the purchase price of a retail box game ($40-50)... but even you have to admit that these $100-200 packages that are becoming the norm on these projects is getting kind of ridiculous.

Yes, I understand this one includes "subscription time", which on its own as I've already discussed is an even bigger affront. Still...

You don't seem to understand how Kickstarter works. The Kickstarter pledges are essentially venture capitalists, investing in a product or service. Most of the game KS projects have packages ranging from 25 dollars to 10,000. Pay more, get more. Pay less, get less.
 

pandemonium

Golden Member
Mar 17, 2011
1,777
76
91


It's one thing to ask for $10 or $20, or even the purchase price of a retail box game ($40-50)... but even you have to admit that these $100-200 packages that are becoming the norm on these projects is getting kind of ridiculous.

Yes, I understand this one includes "subscription time", which on its own as I've already discussed is an even bigger affront. Still...

It's becoming common because people are interested in receiving more than just a cheaper retail box. They actually want to be a part of the development process. Think of it this way, we live in a completely different world today as opposed to previous days when you just went out and bought any game that had hype, got disappointed, and ate the cost, or sold it to a kid at school that you didn't really like.

If people weren't interested, those packages wouldn't sell.

If you're not convinced, don't pledge much or at all. You're not obligated to pay anything if the project doesn't reach their funding. The public speaks.
 

OSULugan

Senior member
Feb 22, 2003
289
0
76
They actually want to be a part of the development process.

TL;DR version - The guarantees for input are non-existent in the language of the kickstarter, so I wouldn't expect much if I donated. The whole concept is too immature for my blood, based on previous experience with early access to MMO projects. I wish this project luck, though.

That assumes that you'll be actually valued as input in the development process. My cynicism meter says that you'll be treated as a "pay to play" person in the alpha and beta phases of the project, and be largely ignored if you deviate much from what the developer decides is his vision. Having been involved in the early beta phases of these games before, I've found that most people are either a) looking for exploits to take advantage of upon release, and don't report them properly b) in for the early preview or c) genuinely interested in helping the development, but largely ignored.

So essentially, you are paying $100+ to have early access, and get frustrated/burnt out on the game before it is even released. Just because you've put extra money in, this time around, doesn't give you any additional sway in the game development process... unless MJ decides to listen to you. Nope, you'll get a "thank you" as a single page of "Thank you to all of these people:" and he gets to essentially pocket the profits from your kickstart. Even more troublesome is the temptation to go "F2P" soon after release, which means that your copy of the game, and any subscription time is severely diminished by microtransactions and MJ's determination of what the prior subscription entitles you to as far as virtual currency.

This is a problem with kickstarter for non-physical goods. You aren't buying into a stake of the company (like you would with a stock purchase, which is how these things would previous have been handled). You are essentially paying an overpriced pre-order, with early access which doesn't guarantee any actual input into the end product. You are relying on the good-faith of a person whom you have limited exposure/experience to/about.

For full disclosure, I played DAOC for about 4 years, had over 30+ level 50s, several RR5+ characters across multiple realms. I was excited about this concept, and considered funding the kickstarter. But, ultimately the above diatribe ran through my brain, and, especially with my recent experience "beta testing" Mechwarrior Online, and the debacle that was their "Founder's packages", I decided that there wasn't enough incentive to part me from that much money at this point in time. I wish this project all the luck in the world, and I hope to be playing it in another year or two. But, after having put together detailed analyses and arguments for several MMO beta programs in the past on the poor decisions being made, and getting ignored, I am quite skeptical of the amount of input that I would ultimately receive.
 

pandemonium

Golden Member
Mar 17, 2011
1,777
76
91
You just generalized against a lot of what MJ has specifically guaranteed would not happen in this project. No one's forcing you to justify paying more, so don't.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
145
106
www.neftastic.com
You don't seem to understand how Kickstarter works. The Kickstarter pledges are essentially venture capitalists, investing in a product or service. Most of the game KS projects have packages ranging from 25 dollars to 10,000. Pay more, get more. Pay less, get less.

I understand how kickstarter works... but in your model it would be one thing if the "investors" actually got a return on investment for a successful product other than what they would have gotten at a retail store for ~$50.

I understand the perks to the tiers and whatnot as trying to "sell" the higher tier packages, but when you really distill it down what you essentially paying for is just a pre-order title. Nothing more.
 

imaheadcase

Diamond Member
May 9, 2005
3,850
7
76
I understand how kickstarter works... but in your model it would be one thing if the "investors" actually got a return on investment for a successful product other than what they would have gotten at a retail store for ~$50.

I understand the perks to the tiers and whatnot as trying to "sell" the higher tier packages, but when you really distill it down what you essentially paying for is just a pre-order title. Nothing more.

I still don't think you understand how kickstarter works. If its "essentially" a pre-order to you, then that is what people do all the time for games they are interested in. You are basically saying "I don't want to invest in a game till I see it reviewed countless times and it gets nothing but 5 stars". That does not make sense.
 

Skott

Diamond Member
Oct 4, 2005
5,730
1
76
You just generalized against a lot of what MJ has specifically guaranteed would not happen in this project. No one's forcing you to justify paying more, so don't.

MJ has well been known to say one thing and then do another.This is one of the things that worries me about this project.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
145
106
www.neftastic.com
I still don't think you understand how kickstarter works. If its "essentially" a pre-order to you, then that is what people do all the time for games they are interested in. You are basically saying "I don't want to invest in a game till I see it reviewed countless times and it gets nothing but 5 stars". That does not make sense.

No... what I'm saying is (in the extreme cases), say if I'm going to drop $10k on a Kickstarter. What I better be seeing isn't some cool swag - I better be seeing a cut of the revenues when it launches. (Yes, I know that even on lower budget titles even $10k is a drop in the bucket so to speak)

I understand the argument around ~$30 to ~$100 that you might essentially be pre-buying the regular-to-collectors edition of the title. But anything more than that, seriously? You're an investor. These developers are just raping the willing at this point and it's sad to see.

I'm sorry, but those of you shelling out three figures plus for these kickstarters are really getting taken in the grand scheme of things. These kickstarters have literally nothing to lose at this point, whereas a traditional development house in a traditional development cycle has everything to lose! They have your money ffs... They can deliver you a flaming bag of crap and say they have fulfilled their requirements!

A traditional developer has a lot riding on a successful launch. I'm not saying the model is great (*cough*EA Crap*cough*), but there's at least accountability. These kickstarters are based on trust and trust alone. That's it. And we're slowly seeing that trust be exploited with these ridiculous high tiers and diminishing returns for the contributors.

- Yes, that's my opinion. I understand it differs from yours. And I apologize, since at this point it really has nothing to do with the thread topic itself but these "high end kickstarters" in general. I will refrain from any further commentary on the subject.
 

diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
3,393
0
0
I'm debating whether to contribute. I been reading up and watching videos about this game. Now I'm toying with the idea of dropping $75 and getting in on the beta testing side of things. I've never done kick starter contribution before. Not sure I like the idea of putting in money before a game is even built. Heck, I dont even like MJ after the fuck up he did with DAoC but I would like to see this type of gaming again. Hmmm...

It has 5 days left and still a good $600,000 to go to hit their 2mil mark.

I don't know if this will pass.

Zach Braff http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1869987317/wish-i-was-here-1?ref=category

is raising money on kickstarter much much faster than this game.... and his is just an independant film. Which half the rewards unless you live in the right area, cannot partake in.
 
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SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
145
106
www.neftastic.com
It has 5 days left and still a good $600,000 to go to hit their 2mil mark.

I don't know if this will pass.

Zach Braff http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1869987317/wish-i-was-here-1?ref=category

is raising money on kickstarter much much faster than this game.... and his is just an independant film. Which half the rewards unless you live in the right area, cannot partake in.

Remember, Garriott's kickstarted picked up $400,000 in the last 6 hours. Granted, it reached funding in half the allotted time.

There's very little to worry about that the goal will be met.
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
I understand how kickstarter works... but in your model it would be one thing if the "investors" actually got a return on investment for a successful product other than what they would have gotten at a retail store for ~$50.

If you don't like to buy and fund games directly from developers, feel free to continue buying from Electronic Arts, Activision, and UbiSoft.
 

pandemonium

Golden Member
Mar 17, 2011
1,777
76
91
Apparently there was an issue with Amazon processing pledges, so this may hurt the bottom line and the momentum. :/
 

imaheadcase

Diamond Member
May 9, 2005
3,850
7
76
Nothing gets "processed" until the kickstarter officially closes.

It was unavailable to pledge during that time. So they lost some hours of people trying to pledge.

Its looking good so far, 24hours and about at 1,830,000 ...$170k in 24 hours? soo nerve racking.. Should be noted that yesterday they had to reach 111k to reach goal and it was almost 115k yesterday.

Sunny D, my view of kickstarter for this MMO is that you are getting something, the game is 2 years out you get to see lots of stuff and participate in lots of events between now and release. It will pay for itself for that time period. I don't doubt the game will not be finished with what I've seen them able to do so far, the only concern I have is it being successful when its released.
 
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SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
145
106
www.neftastic.com
I think it's officially at the point where any backers really don't need to worry whether or not it will go or not. A last minute "kick" by Jacobs and Co. will push it over the edge. They're not going to let it die at the last minute if it were short by 25-50k or so.

But one thing is for certain, it goes to show you just how niche this one actually is.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
I pledged $175. Kinda owed a friend, and have this pile of bitcoin money laying around burning a hole in my pocket.
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
22
81
No... what I'm saying is (in the extreme cases), say if I'm going to drop $10k on a Kickstarter. What I better be seeing isn't some cool swag - I better be seeing a cut of the revenues when it launches. (Yes, I know that even on lower budget titles even $10k is a drop in the bucket so to speak)

I understand the argument around ~$30 to ~$100 that you might essentially be pre-buying the regular-to-collectors edition of the title. But anything more than that, seriously? You're an investor. These developers are just raping the willing at this point and it's sad to see.

I'm sorry, but those of you shelling out three figures plus for these kickstarters are really getting taken in the grand scheme of things. These kickstarters have literally nothing to lose at this point, whereas a traditional development house in a traditional development cycle has everything to lose! They have your money ffs... They can deliver you a flaming bag of crap and say they have fulfilled their requirements!

A traditional developer has a lot riding on a successful launch. I'm not saying the model is great (*cough*EA Crap*cough*), but there's at least accountability. These kickstarters are based on trust and trust alone. That's it. And we're slowly seeing that trust be exploited with these ridiculous high tiers and diminishing returns for the contributors.

- Yes, that's my opinion. I understand it differs from yours. And I apologize, since at this point it really has nothing to do with the thread topic itself but these "high end kickstarters" in general. I will refrain from any further commentary on the subject.

Kickstarter isn't some sort of investment, if it was, you'd get money out of it - which is exactly what you are saying. But my view of this which is that we are essentially promoting art - we, as a group, are patrons of the arts. Now one can argue whether or not an MMO is "art" but is certainly seems arguable that it's a type of art, and it's certainly "art" that we people who are interested want to see created.

We aren't paying money to save money - or to make money - we are paying money to ensure that some "work of art" that we want to see is created.

It's like the Statue of Liberty. France gave it to the US and it sat in a warehouse, and then there was a nationwide drive to get a location for it and a pedestal for it and people all over the country paid money to see this happen. They didn't get a discount to take a tour, or a percentage of the tour profits... they paid money just to see that it was created.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
Kickstarter isn't some sort of investment, if it was, you'd get money out of it - which is exactly what you are saying.

It's not, but it *almost* is. It makes me wonder if there is a market for a service like kick-starter, but as an actual real investment system rather than pledges for product with zero cash return.

I'd invest $5000 towards an amazing niche game concept I think might work, if I got a cut out of the earnings. But I wouldn't do it just for a copy of the game, even if it does include some stupid vanity pets and such.
 
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