Can a company legally ask for money after a contract is signed?

[DaWhim]

look like OP is getting pwned.

 

[hysperion]

Originally posted by: Lucky

Originally posted by: hysperion
No they didn't "guess" the discount code. No doubt they entered exactly what your lying mother told them.

Resorting to legal threats? What would you rather have them do? She lied on her application

Resorting to legal threats doesn't sound very aggressive to me. No doubt this is after your fraudulent mother refused to own up to her fraud/mistake.

May be true, but most likely since your mom gave incorrect information on the application and she's a directly involved party as well- she could be held responsible

Yes, but the dealer acted as the leasing company's agent who your mom provided false info to.

Again, the dealership is the leasing company's agent.

That's not the worst case but the most likely case

Yet it's worth it to your mom to scam a business acting in good faith out of their commision based on her mistake?

Your mom is a cheat/fraud with no moral principles. Based on your responses it sounds like she's taught you well

If someone had legal documentation it would no longer be an opinion would it?
Thanks.

Why don't you do what's right. Your mom messed the form up and the dealership who acted in good faith is getting screwed based on her direct actions. So rather then accepting that you start going off about it being 'their' fault. Look within- tell her to pay the money she owes and move on with life. According to your it's only a small amount anyways.

None of what you've mentioned here sounds anything like a car dealership scam.

Car Dealership Bitch,

I am surprised that you know 'without doubt' that OP's mother lied to the dealership and fraudulenty submitted a discount code. How would you know this Car Dealership Bitch? I don't think do do, because 3 lines later you say she could have "made a mistake." Why are you so hostile when you can't even get your story straight Car Dealership Bitch?

Car Dealership Bitch, I am also wondering if you could provide the state in which you are liscensed to practice law in? Seems like you know quite a bit about leasing laws and such, even though you can't provide a firm rebuttal to any of his opinions on the legal status of this. Car Dealership Bitch (hereby abbreviated simply as Bitch), why does this strike such a nerve with you? I'm guessing that you, Bitch, have been in a similar situation. Did you forgot to validate a discount code at the dealership you work at too Bitch? Get screwed out of your commission? Surely, Bitch, that must be why you are slandering this poor lady.

Bitch, I think you should apologize. It's not nice to call someone's mother fraudulent, immoral, and a cheat.

Sounds alot like a personal attack........

Maybe you missed the point where I worked at a car dealership for a week- ever stop to think why it was only a week? I actually quit because of 2 seperate instances of my customers walked when the finance manager tried whacking them over the head with an unjustified interest rate after they had already been approved once and had agreed to all other terms. So actually, my "similiar" situation is exactly the opposite. You must have missed my following post about most car dealerships being operated by scammers?

All we can go off of is the OP's post which to me looks like his mom committed fraud or a mistake that she isn't owning up to........Anyways, here's dictionary.com's fraud definitions...
1. deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.
2. a particular instance of such deceit or trickery: mail fraud; election frauds.
3. any deception, trickery, or humbug: That diet book is a fraud and a waste of time.
4. a person who makes deceitful pretenses; sham; poseur.

Again, either his mom committed an "at the time" honest mistake which she is now not living up to, or she committed fraud. To me either implies low morals......

In reguards to being involved in a similiar situation, it actually sounds like you've been in a similiar situation based on all your anger. Did a car dealership "get you too?"

Poor lady??? Most "poor" ladies don't buy new cars. On top of that- the comment seems a little sexist in a country where woman have equal rights. I don't recall this being 1950... Generally, a comment like yours is made by someone who views someone else as inferior to themself. I'm sure you would call yourself a "poor man"...

 

[Imported]

She never stated what discount it was and the dealership guessed what it was and used it without verifying it before writing up the contract? That's not your mothers fault I believe.

 

[BG4533]

Originally posted by: hysperion

Originally posted by: BG4533
About a month ago my mother signed a lease for a new car. When talking price she told the dealership she had some special discount but did not have the information present. They apparently guessed the discount code, based the price on it, and she signed the contract with it. She has already made one regular lease payment for the car.
No they didn't "guess" the discount code. No doubt they entered exactly what your lying mother told them.

The dealer has now come back saying she had no right to use the code she did and she owes the dealership itself a decent amount of money. They have quickly become very aggressive and are resorting to legal threats.
Resorting to legal threats? What would you rather have them do? She lied on her application
My opinion is that the dealership made the mistake and it is theirs alone. You've already pointed out how your mom either made a mistake or committed fraud so I don't see how you can type that drivel. They are becoming aggressive because they won't get their commision. Resorting to legal threats doesn't sound very aggressive to me. No doubt this is after your fraudulent mother refused to own up to her fraud/mistake. They were responsible for validating the terms of the lease before signing it. May be true, but most likely since your mom gave incorrect information on the application and she's a directly involved party as well- she could be held responsible The lease is a contract between my mother and the leasing company. Yes, but the dealer acted as the leasing company's agent who your mom provided false info to. If for any reason the lease was invalid it would be between the leasing company and my mother and the the dealership would not be involved. Again, the dealership is the leasing company's agent. In the worst case the lease would be null and void. She could sign a new lease and pay the money or let them take back the car. That's not the worst case but the most likely case I seriously doubt it is worth it to the leasing company to pursue this amount of money. Yet it's worth it to your mom to scam a business acting in good faith out of their commision based on her mistake?

What are your opinions on the issue? Your mom is a cheat/fraud with no moral principles. Based on your responses it sounds like she's taught you well If you have any legal documentation to support your opinion please post it.
If someone had legal documentation it would no longer be an opinion would it?
Thanks.

Why don't you do what's right. Your mom messed the form up and the dealership who acted in good faith is getting screwed based on her direct actions. So rather then accepting that you start going off about it being 'their' fault. Look within- tell her to pay the money she owes and move on with life. According to your it's only a small amount anyways.

None of what you've mentioned here sounds anything like a car dealership scam.

You have made an awful lot of bold assumptions. You don't know my mother, you don't know me and unless you work for the car dealership you have no basis to post what you did.

As I mentioned in an earlier post I was not present when the deal was negotiated so I am only capable of posting a one sided statement. From what I was told she told them what the code was for and they wrote in the code. At this point I don't think it is possible for any third party to say who is wrong here. It may be worth noting that the salesperson was 21 years old and just started selling cars.

Right now my mother has a letter from the car dealership saying she owes the car dealership money. They did not mention the lease company or say that the lease is not valid or anything of that nature. Only that she owes them money. Any payment requested as an agent of a company should be explicitly made on behalf of that company. If she were to pay the car dealership based on the current request what is to stop the lease company from requesting the money as well?

If she has any legal reason to pay the money that would mean the lease is invalid. If the dealer is in fact acting as an agent of the lease company their acceptance of the payment would be equal to the acknowledment of the invalidity of the lease. What then?

In regards to your comment on legal documentation:
If law is so cut and dry why is there ever a need for a trial or jury?

 

[hysperion]

Originally posted by: BG4533

Originally posted by: hysperion

Originally posted by: BG4533
About a month ago my mother signed a lease for a new car. When talking price she told the dealership she had some special discount but did not have the information present. They apparently guessed the discount code, based the price on it, and she signed the contract with it. She has already made one regular lease payment for the car.
No they didn't "guess" the discount code. No doubt they entered exactly what your lying mother told them.

The dealer has now come back saying she had no right to use the code she did and she owes the dealership itself a decent amount of money. They have quickly become very aggressive and are resorting to legal threats.
Resorting to legal threats? What would you rather have them do? She lied on her application
My opinion is that the dealership made the mistake and it is theirs alone. You've already pointed out how your mom either made a mistake or committed fraud so I don't see how you can type that drivel. They are becoming aggressive because they won't get their commision. Resorting to legal threats doesn't sound very aggressive to me. No doubt this is after your fraudulent mother refused to own up to her fraud/mistake. They were responsible for validating the terms of the lease before signing it. May be true, but most likely since your mom gave incorrect information on the application and she's a directly involved party as well- she could be held responsible The lease is a contract between my mother and the leasing company. Yes, but the dealer acted as the leasing company's agent who your mom provided false info to. If for any reason the lease was invalid it would be between the leasing company and my mother and the the dealership would not be involved. Again, the dealership is the leasing company's agent. In the worst case the lease would be null and void. She could sign a new lease and pay the money or let them take back the car. That's not the worst case but the most likely case I seriously doubt it is worth it to the leasing company to pursue this amount of money. Yet it's worth it to your mom to scam a business acting in good faith out of their commision based on her mistake?

What are your opinions on the issue? Your mom is a cheat/fraud with no moral principles. Based on your responses it sounds like she's taught you well If you have any legal documentation to support your opinion please post it.
If someone had legal documentation it would no longer be an opinion would it?
Thanks.

Why don't you do what's right. Your mom messed the form up and the dealership who acted in good faith is getting screwed based on her direct actions. So rather then accepting that you start going off about it being 'their' fault. Look within- tell her to pay the money she owes and move on with life. According to your it's only a small amount anyways.

None of what you've mentioned here sounds anything like a car dealership scam.

You have made an awful lot of bold assumptions. You don't know my mother, you don't know me and unless you work for the car dealership you have no basis to post what you did.

As I mentioned in an earlier post I was not present when the deal was negotiated so I am only capable of posting a one sided statement. Yet you said the car dealership made the mistake and it was "theirs alone" even though your mom also committed at minimum a mistake- at worst fraud. From what I was told she told them what the code was for and they wrote in the code. Earlier you posted that they "guessed the discount code". Now you claim she told them what the code was for and they wrote it in. Which one is it? At this point I don't think it is possible for any third party to say who is wrong here. Sure it is- your mom made at minimum a mistake that she won't own up to, or she committed fraud....Either is morally wrong. EXCEPTION: The dealership may not have entered the incorrect code but is simply attempting to extort more $$$ from your mom. I would verify that the wrong code was in fact entered first. It may be worth noting that the salesperson was 21 years old and just started selling cars. So a new employee committed a mistake based on what your mom told him, yet your mom shares no responsibility?

Right now my mother has a letter from the car dealership saying she owes the car dealership money. They did not mention the lease company or say that the lease is not valid or anything of that nature. Only that she owes them money. Any payment requested as an agent of a company should be explicitly made on behalf of that company. If she were to pay the car dealership based on the current request what is to stop the lease company from requesting the money as well? Well- what she should first do is have someone with a good head on their shoulders (which could be herself) investigate the discount code that was used. Then investigate the discount code she was eligible for. After she figures out if there is a monetary difference she should pay it. If it were me I would involve the leasing company in the discussions as well to make sure they didn't try double billing her....She should DEFINATELY make sure that the wrong discount code was used somehow because it's possible the dealership is just trying to extort her for more cash...Unlikely, but possible with scammerships...
If she has any legal reason to pay the money that would mean the lease is invalid. If the dealer is in fact acting as an agent of the lease company their acceptance of the payment would be equal to the acknowledment of the invalidity of the lease. What then?
Realistically, I think a moral person would pay the $$$ if a mistake was made that they caused. I'm sure if she acted in that reguard her lease would remain valid. How much money are we really talking? $500? $1000? $2000?
In regards to your comment on legal documentation:
If law is so cut and dry why is there ever a need for a trial or jury?

I think something like this would be a waste of court time for both parties. If she feels the dealership shares responsible for the mistake she should acknowledge her share of the blame and offer to settle for somewhere in between what they're asking for and what she's already paid.
If I were in this situation- alot would depend on how the dealership treated me when I purchased the car. Although, I wouldn't buy a car from a dealer that didn't treat me fairly while I was there in the first place...

 

[hysperion]

rp

 

[Captante]

OP, tell your mom to speak to an attorney who offers free consultations regarding this matter before she pays the dealer one dime.

 

[daniel1113]

You mom needs to speak with an attorney. Verbal contracts are just as viable as written contracts, so if the dealership acted in good faith and/or your mom made a false claim, they may have a solid case. Either way, I doubt the savings will be worth court costs.

 

[BG4533]

The amount is about $2000. For a lease its a decent amount extra.

It sounds like the sales person was nice, but the manager who is asking for the money basically said pay or we will sue when my mother inquired about the letter.

 

[FoBoT]

if she defrauded them, she will lose
if they are in the right, they'll sue and she'll lose

i advise either pay or hire a lawyer

 

[waggy]

oh ******. i should learn to read better. i didnt see where she lied.

damn she owes the money. she went in telling them she got a discount wich she did not. if they take her to court they are going to win.

 

[funboy6942]

Originally posted by: BG4533
About a month ago my mother signed a lease for a new car. When talking price she told the dealership she had some special discount but did not have the information present. They apparently guessed the discount code, based the price on it, and she signed the contract with it. She has already made one regular lease payment for the car.

The dealer has now come back saying she had no right to use the code she did and she owes the dealership itself a decent amount of money. They have quickly become very aggressive and are resorting to legal threats.

My opinion is that the dealership made the mistake and it is theirs alone. They are becoming aggressive because they won't get their commision. They were responsible for validating the terms of the lease before signing it. The lease is a contract between my mother and the leasing company. If for any reason the lease was invalid it would be between the leasing company and my mother and the the dealership would not be involved. In the worst case the lease would be null and void. She could sign a new lease and pay the money or let them take back the car. I seriously doubt it is worth it to the leasing company to pursue this amount of money.

What are your opinions on the issue? If you have any legal documentation to support your opinion please post it.

Thanks.

I think that both are at fault but more your mother if the bold is true for she didnt have the info, and they on "good faith" expected it to be true. She is responsible to come up with the other funds or "coupon" she said she had. It would be no different then going in there with a post dated check, holding onto it, and finding out later your mom never had the funds and the check bounced. If that be the case you can bet your ass a tow truck driver would be there to pick up the car asap if that check didnt get covered. They can if they wanted to be asses nul and void the lease for they have the right to do so for outstanding "lease" funds and/or just take you mother to small claims court for the outstanding debt and/or repo fees.

Because your mom said she had it and now she doesnt and the contract has beeen signed shes held to come up with the right coupon to use or pay up what was owed at the time the contract was signed. Either way Im sure there is a loop hole in the contract that doesnt hold the dealership for this but the customer and would suggest you read it fully each and every line or contact your faimly lawyer instead of anandtech and tell them what happened, but Im pretty sure that if you mom mentioned she had some coupon it was deducted the same way as if it was a post dated check and they just waited for your mom to come in with it. Only problem is your mom supposedly brought something in she was not allowed to use so yup they are not going to cover whats owed and someone else will some how and I can guess ho that is going to be (payment already made or not). Reason this is the dealer and not the lease company is because the dealership struck up the contract and they are trying to collect the funds that was owed and promised by your mom for themn to give to the lease company. You can bet your ass that if your mom doesnt pay and feels it was thier mistake to believe your mother instead of going sorry MRS. XXX no papers no car your wrong. Dealerships have loop holes for such things as this for sure so either way you mom is going to have to pay the diff what she said at the time of the contract or they will just tell the lease company that they were lied to about said coupon, she refuses to pay, and the tow truck will be on its way. Then good bye to moms good credit because it will be a repo and they may/will go after here because big companys have lawyers working on thier side and get paid a hell of alot more then me or you and will end up getting what was owed one way or another.

Sorry to be a bummer.

 

[AnandTech Moderator]

Stop the personal attacks and keep this on topic or I will lock it and the OP gets little help.

 

[boomerang]

The lawyer is probably the best advice you have gotten here.

If I understand your first post correctly, I would offer some points to consider;

Do NOT return the car. As has been said, the lease contract is between your mother and GMAC. I'm assuming its GMAC. If she returns the car, she will find herself owing the remainder of the payments on top of having no car. This sounds like a dealer ?bluff? to me.

I work for GM. I do not believe the difference between the employee price and a supplier price amounts to that much money. There is not that great of a difference percentage wise to amount to that much, but I do not know for sure.

It's entirely possible that other mistakes were made. A new, young salesman combined with an inattentive manager could have resulted in errors of any kind.

I don't know if that's the case and neither do you. I would not hand over a single dime to those people based on what they said.

Get some representation.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Hey, this story has American car company written all over it. I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

Except that your eyesight is about as 20/20 as Mr. Magoo's


Actually domestic dealerships usually far exceed foreign dealerships in service.

This my be because domestics in the past had a larger share of problems and so were forced to have a greater amount of service interaction with their customers. Not something to be exactly proud of.

 

[PokerGuy]

I don't know the specifics, and neither does anyone else here. The key is going to be how your mom presented the 'coupon' issue. If she told them she had a certain code or coupon and they acted on that, she could be responsible to pay the difference. However, given the limited amount of info I have, I'm inclined to think the dealership screwed up by not verifying the info (they probably wanted to get the sale) and are now trying to cover their butt.

Bottom line, you should consult an attorney and find out where you stand and make sure you take proper steps. More than likely, the attorney will tell them to go fly a kite.

 

[Squisher]

I'm surprised that the dealership is making a big deal out of this. Discounts to the general public have grown to the point where they're not far from rivaling employee discounts. I was looking a a G6 in the paper yesterday and the employee discount was only $100 more than the one given to the general public.

<---gets GM employee discount

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: AnandTech Moderator
Stop the personal attacks and keep this on topic or I will lock it and the OP gets little help.

he does not deserve much help honestly. His mother went into a dealership. said she had a discount (wich she does not) the dealership wrote up the deal based on the fact she claimed to have the coupon. flat out fact is she lied on the application to get the car or she screwed up and and now wants it anyway. either way it is her fault (well most of it anyway. the dealership should have waited to see if it was true).


If it was the other way around people would be calling the dealership to have its license revoked or worse.

only thing she can do is either pay the diffrence or get a lawyer. either is going to cost her the money (good). But the dealership has better attorneys. also in the contract it has a section saying of she lies on it she is responsible for all damages. this can get very ugly for her and rightfully so.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: Squisher
I'm surprised that the dealership is making a big deal out of this. Discounts to the general public have grown to the point where they're not far from rivaling employee discounts. I was looking a a G6 in the paper yesterday and the employee discount was only $100 more than the one given to the general public.

<---gets GM employee discount

yeah they have gotten nuts.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: Squisher
I'm surprised that the dealership is making a big deal out of this. Discounts to the general public have grown to the point where they're not far from rivaling employee discounts. I was looking a a G6 in the paper yesterday and the employee discount was only $100 more than the one given to the general public.

<---gets GM employee discount

yeah they have gotten nuts.

 

[dirtboy]

Contract law is simple and I've been through a dispute with my last lease and I won. Normally I'd side with your mother. However, contract law says that both parties enter the contract in good faith. Your mom used a discount code that turned out to be illegit. She failed to give them her code and in your own words, guessed. By doing so she attempted to defraud the other party. In the case of fraud, the other party is not legally required to uphold their end, thus making the contract void.

The dealership wouldn't be repeatedly threatening taking your mom to court if they didn't have a case.

In my case, the dealership briefly threatened to have their lawyers call me. I told the sales manager to do that so I could explain basic contract law to them. I won. However, I made no attempt to defraud them. The dealership made an error on the lease agreement in my favor, then later wanted me to give it up.

 

[thepd7]

Originally posted by: dirtboy
Contract law is simple and I've been through a dispute with my last lease and I won. Normally I'd side with your mother. However, contract law says that both parties enter the contract in good faith. Your mom used a discount code that turned out to be illegit. She failed to give them her code and in your own words, guessed. By doing so she attempted to defraud the other party. In the case of fraud, the other party is not legally required to uphold their end, thus making the contract void.

The dealership wouldn't be repeatedly threatening taking your mom to court if they didn't have a case.

In my case, the dealership briefly threatened to have their lawyers call me. I told the sales manager to do that so I could explain basic contract law to them. I won. However, I made no attempt to defraud them. The dealership made an error on the lease agreement in my favor, then later wanted me to give it up.

My understanding is the dealership guessed based on her saying she qualified for something, but OP correct me if I am wrong. In that case the dealer is responsible for entering the correct code, right?

But OP if she did in fact qualify for whatever discount she said originally (but not necessarily the code the dealer put in) why can't she just prove she qualifies for that, then if it goes to court the dealer is in the wrong for not putting the correct dicsount code in.

 

[FoBoT]

the question is fraud or no fraud

if the judge decides she committed fraud, the contract is void

i think it'll take a lawyer and/or judge to decide if she committed fraud in the transaction

 

[BG4533]

As I said in an earlier post, it isn't possible for any of us to made an educated decision on this. We weren't there and we don't have all of the info.

It has been interesting to see how many people jump jump to conclusions so quickly with so little information.

What I want to know is "What are the proper channels for the dealership to ask for more money?"

I think it would be very stupid to just write the dealership a check without a new lease or an amendment to the lease or something like that. It doesnt sound like the dealer wants anything do with that, they just want money.

One more thing: If the dealership thought they were right wouldn't they immediately start with a more proper request?

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: BG4533
As I said in an earlier post, it isn't possible for any of us to made an educated decision on this. We weren't there and we don't have all of the info.

It has been interesting to see how many people jump jump to conclusions so quickly with so little information.

What I want to know is "What are the proper channels for the dealership to ask for more money?"

I think it would be very stupid to just write the dealership a check without a new lease or an amendment to the lease or something like that. It doesnt sound like the dealer wants anything do with that, they just want money.

One more thing: If the dealership thought they were right wouldn't they immediately start with a more proper request?

they did start with a proper request. they told her that she was not qualified for the discount (even after she claimed she was) and asked her to pay the diffrence or prove she qualifes for the other discount.

next step is they will most likely send a certiefied letter. then sue her.

Originally posted by: FoBoT
the question is fraud or no fraud

if the judge decides she committed fraud, the contract is void

i think it'll take a lawyer and/or judge to decide if she committed fraud in the transaction

i agree. odds are either way she is going to end up spending the money. wich is good if she lied to them.