Can a computer give TRUE random numbers?

SaltyNuts

Platinum Member
May 1, 2001
2,399
275
126
I'm working on developing some new theories regarding the nature of our universe. But I have a question. When I ask a computer to give me a random number, does it generate a TRUE random number? Or is it, most likely, just a pseudo-random number? If it is TRULY random, how is it generated?

Thanks.
 

Humpy

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2011
4,463
596
126
Because numbers do not exist unless they are intentionally created they cannot be random.
 

SaltyNuts

Platinum Member
May 1, 2001
2,399
275
126
Because numbers do not exist unless they are intentionally created they cannot be random.

Well, that might be true for everything BUT quantum mechanics. Which is interesting, because that is at the heart of my new theory. Thanks a ton Humpy!
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,552
12,865
136
What's your stance on determinism, and does that impact your definition of random?
 

Humpy

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2011
4,463
596
126
Well, that might be true for everything BUT quantum mechanics. Which is interesting, because that is at the heart of my new theory. Thanks a ton Humpy!

You're welcome!

If you need any other answers that are completely made up with zero knowledge or interest in the subject under discussion I'm your guy.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,525
27,828
136
Computer generated random numbers are inherently limited in scope. Irrational numbers are out. Generated numbers are limited in magnitude. Most often, they are limited in significant digits.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,214
3,627
126
In software alone, no. You can get good pseudo random numbers with software. But they will eventually repeat themselves and the same list could be generated over and over again if the software is seeded the same.

But, with the right hardware in the right condition (they fail over time) you can do it with a computer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_random_number_generator
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,525
27,828
136
In software alone, no. You can get good pseudo random numbers with software. But they will eventually repeat themselves and the same list could be generated over and over again if the software is seeded the same.
Case in point: the iPod. Steve Jobs never figured out how to write a random number generator.
 

John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
22,840
617
121
Computers would be pseudo-random. I'm willing to bet an App for a smart device that uses WIFI, GPS and compass metrics would be as close to random as you could get.
 

LPCTech

Senior member
Dec 11, 2013
680
93
86
Computer generated random numbers are generally "seeded" meaning the number is random but within a scope and based upon a "seed" number. Such as lets say, the current time in milliseconds.

As far as I know there is no way to generate a truly random number without a seed value and that would be pseudo-random.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,907
12,375
126
www.anyf.ca
On it's own it's very hard for computers to be random. Early video games that were fairly primitive would use certain things like how long it took you to press buttons, or your current points or other fairly variable things based on user input to determine randomness.

Modern computers basically do the same thing, just that there is way more data to work with such as various data flying around, network stuff etc, and it can be processed much faster. The best random number generator will use physical outside data though, but even then you want your source to be able to generate a lot of random data. So something like temperature and humidity may not be enough as it does not change fast enough. I heard of checking RF and even ionizing radiation levels in combination with other data. You want your sources to be unpredictable too especially in a secure application as you don't want previous or future values to be predictable. Ex: a login system, you don't want your random algo to be so crappy that someone can figure out the last or the next session ID based on their own.

RSA has that downpath with their RSA tokens. It's suppose to be near impossible to predict the next or previous token based on reading a bunch of them. Otherwise you could technically compromise someone by simply reading say, 10 of their numbers off their token sitting on their desk. Then figure out what the number will be at a specific time. There's a crazy amount of brains that go into ensuring that can't be done. That would be a pseudo random algorithm and not fully random though.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
In software alone, no. You can get good pseudo random numbers with software. But they will eventually repeat themselves and the same list could be generated over and over again if the software is seeded the same.

But, with the right hardware in the right condition (they fail over time) you can do it with a computer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_random_number_generator

For whatever reason "true" random is often assumed to be best, when pseudo-random is actually more useful in practice because it's possible to replicate. Also in practice the random numbers generated by computers using some clock method are more than good enough with only specific exceptions, typical where said replication is a security risk.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,128
5,657
126
In this Quantum Universe, when your Mother told you not to touch the cup high up on the counter because it was Hot, was it really hot?
 

Cr0nJ0b

Golden Member
Apr 13, 2004
1,141
29
91
meettomy.site
I think i read somewhere that NSA used background cosmic radiation as a way to generate random numbers for cypers...not sure how they do it...but it was supposed to be better than RNG.
 

Smoblikat

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2011
5,184
107
106
I dont think so. I asked the same question to someone much much smarter than me, and he said the only true random sequence of numbers can be derived from radioactive decay.
 

John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
22,840
617
121
I dont think so. I asked the same question to someone much much smarter than me, and he said the only true random sequence of numbers can be derived from radioactive decay.


This is EXACTLY what I had in mind for a long time. I have a piece of uranium and always wanted to make a RNG with it some how.
 

slayer202

Lifer
Nov 27, 2005
13,682
119
106
what kind of troll starts real discussion threads like this? now I'm on wiki trying to understand this shit
 

Scarpozzi

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
26,389
1,778
126
Random number algorithms I studied 20 years ago in school were always stated to be anything but random. The nature of the algorithm is that you wouldn't know which numbers would be selected, but like a roulette wheel the algorithm would frequently hit the same numbers and/or omitting others more frequently. It may take more iterations than a human would be willing to wait for and even more samples of data, but you can use simulation software to test a lot of those theories.

If you could detect an algorithm's deficiencies via simulation and create another algorithm with the opposite deficiencies, you could run them in a round-robin and make things more random...but then you may be creating new problems because random number selection doesn't necessarily follow uniform distribution across the range you're selecting from... It's easier just to deny that random numbers can ever be selected with a computer and the best method is drawing numbered ping pong balls out of a bucket.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |