'Can America Survive?'

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
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Saw him interviewed over the weekend on CNN about his book, funny how I always associate this guy with "Bueller, Bueller, Bueller" even though he has proven to be very knowledgable in his former game show "Win Ben Stein's Money" and his bio is pretty impressive as well....

Ben Stein (Benjamin J. Stein) was born on Nov. 25, 1944 in Washington, D.C. The son of noted economist and writer Herbert Stein, he grew up in Silver Spring, Md., and attended Montgomery Blair High School. Some of his classmates included journalist Carl Bernstein, and actors Goldie Hawn and Sylvester Stallone. He graduated from Columbia University in 1966 with honors in economics and as valedictorian of the 1970 Yale Law School class. He has worked as a poverty lawyer, a trial lawyer, a university adjunct (American University, University of California at Santa Cruz and Pepperdine University), a speech writer for Presidents Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford and a columnist for The Wall Street Journal, The Los Angeles Herald Examiner, King Features Syndicate, Los Angeles Magazine, New York Magazine, E! Online and The American Spectator. He also writes frequently for The Washington Post. Stein has written and published 16 books (seven novels, nine nonfiction books), the most recent of which is about life with his 12-year-old son, Tommy. He has been a longtime screenwriter and was one of the creators of the TV series Fernwood 2Night. He has acted and made guest appearances in numerous movies and TV series, appears in many TV commercials and is the host of two Comedy Central TV series, "Win Ben Stein's Money" (October, 1997-present) and "Turn Ben Stein On" (begins airing on Dec. 2, 1999). He is married to entertainment-industry attorney Alexandra Denman.

The interview while short was IMHO fantastic, he really put the screws to whomever was filling in for Blitzer (some woman whom I cannot remember her name)...but Stein was highly articulate and had a few really good points....needless to say I am most likely going to pick this up...however since this isn't a left leaning post I can only imagine how many rip comparisons I will recieve for posting. Sorry if this is a repost but I searched for the title of the book, this specific story, and also Ben Stein.

(CBS) Heated debates about what's right and what's wrong about America are not uncommon, especially during a presidential election year.

But author Ben Stein believes that America is under attack by those who hate America. He writes about the problem in his new book, "Can America Survive?"

Stein believes that the political "left" is misrepresenting the real America, and that is damaging to everyone.

He tells The Early Show co-anchor Harry Smith, ?I?m a conservative because America has much that?s worth preserving and conserving. This is the best country that has ever been. God truly shed His grace on thee. When I see outspoken left-wing liberals saying it?s a racist country, it's a repressive country, it's a fascist country, it makes me furious. This is a wonderful, God-blessed country with the nicest people in the world.?

He considers Al Gore the "no. 1 scare-monger in the United States, I'd say, in terms of political position" and puts in this "dangerous" category Robert Altman and Susan Sarandon.

He notes, "I?ve worked in Hollywood now for 28 years. I?ve never seen so many rich people who are so incredibly angry. They think they?re stars. People say to me, 'How come all the stars are on the left?' The stars aren't on the left. The real stars are patrolling the alleys in Fallujah and Ramadi, fighting in Afghanistan. Those are the real stars. We should focus on those stars, be incredibly grateful for those stars and, by the way, pay them a lot more money.?

Stein says this left-wing negativity is not good for our nation. He explains, ?There are some people who say America is a racist country and encourage...racial division in the country are very dangerous. Some of these people who say this is a capitalist exploiting class country are dangerous. This is an open, free country with opportunity for everyone, full of kind and nice people. That?s what we?re fighting for. We?re not fighting for a fascist country.?

Asked about poverty in America, a topic he discusses at length in his book, he says, ?There are 280 million people in this country. There?s no doubt that several million of them are very, very poor. And that?s very bad. Any poor, any involuntarily poor, is too many.

"The real point is," he continues, "that there is something like 260 million who are not poor and who are prosperous, and that?s never happened before, to have as many prosperous people as this country... Let?s...say this country has been a hugely successful country. Let?s not trash it all the time. Of course, let?s work on getting the poor out of poverty. Mainly, they don?t stay in poverty very long.

"Let?s concentrate on saying we?re fighting for the best country in the world. We?re the good guys. Stop trashing us. Worry about the enemy. The enemy isn?t George Bush. The enemy is the al Qaeda.?

Read an excerpt from Chapter One:

Can America Survive: The Rage of the Left, The Truth, and What to Do About it


Chapter One

The U.S. Economy


?Today, under George W. Bush, there are two Americas, not one: One America that does the work, another America that reaps the reward. One America that pays the taxes, another America that gets the tax breaks. One America that will do anything to leave its children a better life, another America that never has to do a thing because its children are already set for life. One America?middle-class America?whose needs Washington has long forgotten, another America?narrow-interest America?whose every wish is Washington?s command. One America that is struggling to get by, another America that can buy anything it wants, even a Congress and a President.?
? Senator John Edwards (?The Breck Girl??D.-N.C.)

?George Bush?s failed economic plan gave us another year of lower incomes and higher poverty rates?as if we needed more evidence that the Bush administration?s economic policies have failed Americans. For two and a half years, George Bush sat on his hands while hard-working middle-class Americans suffer through job loss, reduced wages, and increased
costs for health care and college. Middle-class families are hurting and need relief.?
? Senator John Kerry ( D-Mass.)

?Today the large organization is lord and master, and most of its employees have been desensitized much as were the medieval peasants who never knew they were serfs.?
? Ralph Nader ( whom we actually like in some ways....)

?Each year an estimated 30 million Americans go hungry.?
? Cynthia Bowers, CBS Evening News, July 10, 2003

?The Agriculture Department figures one out of six children in America
faces hunger; that?s more than 12 million kids.?
? Scott Pelley, 60 Minutes II, January 8, 2003


According to the media, the U.S. economy is a cold-hearted machine that enriches the few and exploits the many. Turn on the TV news, and every economic event becomes the subject for a Marxist critique on the dysfunctional state of capitalism in America. The rich, true to form, keep getting richer, while the poor suffer in Dickensian destitution. Thanks to free trade, factories are closing, and our good jobs are being shipped abroad, consigning the workers left behind to low-wage service jobs?if they can find jobs at all. The middle class is disintegrating, and now Mom and Dad must both labor to bring in what Dad alone could earn a generation ago. For the poor, homelessness is rampant; and the quality of life for all Americans is in irreversible decline. Very likely, all this is the fault of the failed policies of George W. Bush and his Republican henchmen.

Sure, this sounds familiar, but is it even remotely true? Let?s examine the facts in this chapter.

Poverty in America

Any poverty in a country as rich as the U.S. is deeply unfortunate. But how bad is it really in America today? A little digging beneath the liberal news machinery is instructive. So is a little history.

In 1937, Franklin Roosevelt could look out to see ?one-third of a nation ill-housed, ill-clad, ill-nourished.? Our image of the poor in America stems from the haunting photographs from that era: people who don?t have enough to eat, who wear rags, and who live in squalor, their faces pinched with desperation. But does this accurately depict the condition of the poor in this country today? Hardly. Consider the following, as applied to the 35 million people in America classified as living in poverty by the Census Bureau in 2003:


Food


Here is our first clue that something has gone very wrong with the statisticians in Washington. In other countries, the primary health problem of the poor is malnutrition; in America, it?s obesity. Twenty-six percent of those living below the poverty line are obese, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Never before have so many people who can?t afford enough to eat been so overweight. Our underprivileged children today are supernourished, which is why, astonishingly, they grow up to be an inch taller and ten pounds heavier than the average kid did 50 years ago. According to the Department of Agriculture, 97 percent of the U.S. population lives in families that reported they had ?enough food to eat? during 2002. Still, half of one percent said that they ?often? didn?t have enough to eat due to lack of funds. This is heartbreaking and needs to be addressed, but it?s almost certainly the smallest percentage of people in such dire straits in any large nation in history. That?s the news flash, not the ?Two Americas? of Senator Edwards?s imagination.


Clothing


The American Enterprise Institute?s Michael Novak grew up in a poor family, where he often had to wear hand-me-down tennis shoes with holes in them. When he visits poor neighborhoods today, he notices what people are wearing on their feet as a telltale indicator of how they?re doing economically. What does he see? People wearing $200 athletic shoes. To be sure, we don?t allege that all poor people wear expensive shoes, or that even if they did, that would mean they?re undeserving of help. But the fact is (thanks largely to free trade), in the last 40 years the price of clothing in America has fallen in half as a percentage of family budgets. This means that, except for the most abject homeless people, shabby or even unfashionable clothing is rare indeed these days.


Shelter


Fully 46 percent of households classified as ?poor? own their own homes, which have three bedrooms, one and a half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio on average. According to Robert Rector and Kirk Johnson?s 2004 Heritage Foundation Report, ?Understanding Poverty In America,? these domiciles have more square footage available per person than does the typical (that is, non-poor) resident of London or Paris.


Health Care


Poor Americans receive free medical care thanks to Medicaid. Far from being a bare-bones policy, Medicaid covers such procedures as biofeedback, impotence treatment, sex-change operations, computerized tomography, and even obesity treatment. A glance at a recent ?Medicaid Coverage?What?s New? Webpage reveals that they?re planning to add the following treatments: magnetic resonance spectroscopy for brain tumors, radioimmunotherapy for non-Hodgkin?s lymphoma, oxaliplatin and irinotecan for colorectal cancer, ocular photodynamic therapy with verteporfin for macular degeneration, and FDG Positron Emission Tomography and other neuroimaging devices for suspected dementia. Were these treatments available even to billionaires 25 years ago?


Education


Free elementary and high school education is, of course, provided throughout the U.S. But students from poor backgrounds who want to continue on to college can apply for some $3.5 billion in need-based scholarships that were given away by state universities in 2000 to 2001, to take the figures from the latest year for which they were available. Looking at all types of scholarships from both public and private schools, these totaled over $13 billion in 1995 to 1996 (the last year figures were available). Clearly, the tools for self-improvement are there for anyone who wants to make use of them.

While the condition of people living in poverty today is undoubtedly far from ideal, poverty isn?t what it used to be. It?s nothing like Depression-era poverty or even the poverty of the 1960s, when so many baby boomers developed their social consciences. And there?s now a substantial question about just how bad poverty was, except in some concentrated areas, in the ?60s.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/02/earlyshow/leisure/books/main633346.shtml
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
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More nonsense about the left being "traitors" and "hating America." Wow, that old schtick sure gets tired.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
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Originally posted by: DealMonkey
More nonsense about the left being "traitors" and "hating America." Wow, that old schtick sure gets tired.

please Deal, just beacuse you don't agree with it then it should be discredited correct?

In the interview Mr. Stein was quick to point out how he knew many many democrats and leftists who were all wonderful people and how he respected their ideals, however his book is focusing on a few influential leftists who he feels paint a highly negative picture of the USA, which he considers one of if not the greatest country in the World (paraphrasing his interview)...

Personally I was amazed at just how articulate and intelligent Mr. Stein seemed to be, especially considering he is "famous" and an actor as generally one cannot use "intelligence" and actor in the same sentence...

However if you want to put on your blinders and ignore a different perspective from a seemingly intelligent person then by all means do what suits you best.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
More nonsense about the left being "traitors" and "hating America." Wow, that old schtick sure gets tired.

please Deal, just beacuse you don't agree with it then it should be discredited correct?

In the interview Mr. Stein was quick to point out how he knew many many democrats and leftists who were all wonderful people and how he respected their ideals, however his book is focusing on a few influential leftists who he feels paint a highly negative picture of the USA, which he considers one of if not the greatest country in the World (paraphrasing his interview)...

Personally I was amazed at just how articulate and intelligent Mr. Stein seemed to be, especially considering he is "famous" and an actor as generally one cannot use "intelligence" and actor in the same sentence...

However if you want to put on your blinders and ignore a different perspective from a seemingly intelligent person then by all means do what suits you best.

Did I say that?

I agree, you're entirely right, Ben Stein is a VERY smart dude. No questions there. I question his painting of liberals as "traitors" and/or "hating America." Both of which are patently wrong. Criticizing America does not equate to "hating America." It just gets old. Really it does.

Of course I agree with Stein that this is a great country. Possibly the best one on the planet. But no country, not even the best of the best is beyond reproach. There are things that we need to work on and frankly I don't see the problem in pointing that out. Pretending we're Camelot and a perfect society is to ignore reality.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,238
136
Well really there is too much hyperbole on both sides, each with the blindsided goal of tearing the other apart. Its quite sad actually. Everybody's to busy pissing in the pool to realize they have to swim in it too.
People should really spend some time in a poor country, and I don't mean just sitting on the beach. Live in a mudwalled hut with dirt floors where the nearest toliet is the front yard. This is how the majority of the world lives. Spend some time there and realize there are not really any truly poor people in this country (at least those who have to try hard to be that poor.) Poor here is those who can't afford cable. Even the unemployed and homeless can find a warm, clean shelter with free food to live in with just having to ask. Most all will never understand what we really have here. Could it be better? Of course, but its a lot father down than up.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
He's an ex-Nixon stooge. Funny guy, but he has a real f'd up view on the world. He sounds like a nut sometimes.
 

MonstaThrilla

Golden Member
Sep 16, 2000
1,652
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Despite his resume and intelligence, one must question the judgement of a man who does those atrocious Clear Eyes beachball commercials...
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
More nonsense about the left being "traitors" and "hating America." Wow, that old schtick sure gets tired.

please Deal, just beacuse you don't agree with it then it should be discredited correct?

In the interview Mr. Stein was quick to point out how he knew many many democrats and leftists who were all wonderful people and how he respected their ideals, however his book is focusing on a few influential leftists who he feels paint a highly negative picture of the USA, which he considers one of if not the greatest country in the World (paraphrasing his interview)...

Personally I was amazed at just how articulate and intelligent Mr. Stein seemed to be, especially considering he is "famous" and an actor as generally one cannot use "intelligence" and actor in the same sentence...

However if you want to put on your blinders and ignore a different perspective from a seemingly intelligent person then by all means do what suits you best.
What's sad is this will be used to paint everyone left of the neocons as unpatriotic and traitorous. I fully agree that there are some on the far left that do more damage than good but I find it completely and utterly ridiculous to call anyone unpatriotic or un-American.

I've seen Ben Stein interviewed recently and I was truly disappointed in his falling back to parroting some of the most banal GOP talking points.
 
May 10, 2001
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That?s right, you libberal mindless elitists just yell ?NUT JOB? after being totally proven wrong.

Hey, you?ve got to have faith in something, right?Arguing a point based on merit would put your faith to the test, and can?t be allowed, can it?
Food: Here is our first clue that something has gone very wrong with the statisticians in Washington. In other countries, the primary health problem of the poor is malnutrition; in America, it?s obesity.

Clothing: What does he see? People wearing $200 athletic shoes.

Shelter: Fully 46 percent of households classified as ?poor? own their own homes, which have three bedrooms, one and a half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio on average.

Health Care: Poor Americans receive free medical care thanks to Medicaid.

Education: Free elementary and high school education is, of course, provided throughout the U.S. But students from poor backgrounds who want to continue on to college can apply for some $3.5 billion in need-based scholarships.
Hi, I?m poor, I?m not kidding.
And guess what? I?m glad to be beneficiary of all of these wonderful programs you libbies brought. interestingly enough though conservatives are OK with feeding the poor and sending kids to collage. As such I?m free from your tyrannical attempt to make me thrall to the state and am free to honestly vote my conscience.

We all agree now that what?s been done to redistribute needed services was good, and now you libbies are unneeded.

Only scaring people into thinking that things are like they where and the same social injustices that existed still do can you people keep power. Only by encouraging poor people to stay poor and the productivity of the individual to stay low can you keep your class war-fair going;

Your attempt to punish those who work their way up out of the socialist quagmire you created is the most disgusting act of all. Is it ?un-American? to keep the poor down and scare them into voting for you? Is it ?un-American? to want big brother to control the political and social views of every day Americans? Is it ?un-American? to steal from a man half of what he worked his life to acquire for his children? No, because the greatness of America is that whatever the people think: it?s American to think that.

But let?s let the people actually vote on these things and stop changing law by judicial mandate.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
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That man is my hero.

I'm not kidding. He really is my hero. Too bad I can't graduate with honors from undergrad anymore.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
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ostif.org
I have an incredible amt. of respect for Ben Stein, his views are clearly well thought out and researched.

My only question about what he said there was the public schools comment, as we all know not all public schools are created equally.

In my city alone (erie, PA) we have a school that tests in the top 100 in the US, (Millcreek School District : McDowell High School and Intermediate), and we have one of the lowest in the state. (Erie School District : Central High School).
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
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Funny how he labels Gore as unpatriotic when under the Administration that Gore was part of America was stronger and more prosperous than it had been in been in 30 years and than it is now. Keep in mind that I do give the Republican Congress part of the credit too.
 

catnap1972

Platinum Member
Aug 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: conjur

I've seen Ben Stein interviewed recently and I was truly disappointed in his falling back to parroting some of the most banal GOP talking points.

Sounds like he really doesn't have a CLUE about reality (real "reality" and not those GOP rose colored glasses). Far easier to look down at the "little people" and criticize them than to sit in their shoes (which I doubt he's EVER had to)
 

catnap1972

Platinum Member
Aug 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: bozack

In 1937, Franklin Roosevelt could look out to see ?one-third of a nation ill-housed, ill-clad, ill-nourished.? Our image of the poor in America stems from the haunting photographs from that era: people who don?t have enough to eat, who wear rags, and who live in squalor, their faces pinched with desperation. But does this accurately depict the condition of the poor in this country today? Hardly. Consider the following, as applied to the 35 million people in America classified as living in poverty by the Census Bureau in 2003:


Food


Here is our first clue that something has gone very wrong with the statisticians in Washington. In other countries, the primary health problem of the poor is malnutrition; in America, it?s obesity. Twenty-six percent of those living below the poverty line are obese, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Never before have so many people who can?t afford enough to eat been so overweight. Our underprivileged children today are supernourished, which is why, astonishingly, they grow up to be an inch taller and ten pounds heavier than the average kid did 50 years ago. According to the Department of Agriculture, 97 percent of the U.S. population lives in families that reported they had ?enough food to eat? during 2002. Still, half of one percent said that they ?often? didn?t have enough to eat due to lack of funds. This is heartbreaking and needs to be addressed, but it?s almost certainly the smallest percentage of people in such dire straits in any large nation in history. That?s the news flash, not the ?Two Americas? of Senator Edwards?s imagination.

Junk food and more junk food. Not to mention the food that is cheapest (chips, pasta, etc.) is fattening, while nutritious food (meat, fish, etc.) is borderline ridiculous. I guess he expects everyone to be able to afford prime rib or halibut every night.


Clothing


The American Enterprise Institute?s Michael Novak grew up in a poor family, where he often had to wear hand-me-down tennis shoes with holes in them. When he visits poor neighborhoods today, he notices what people are wearing on their feet as a telltale indicator of how they?re doing economically. What does he see? People wearing $200 athletic shoes. To be sure, we don?t allege that all poor people wear expensive shoes, or that even if they did, that would mean they?re undeserving of help. But the fact is (thanks largely to free trade), in the last 40 years the price of clothing in America has fallen in half as a percentage of family budgets. This means that, except for the most abject homeless people, shabby or even unfashionable clothing is rare indeed these days.

How does he know where those $200 shoes came from? Stolen? Drug money? I always love these studies which quote "such and such" as being "a percentage of the family budget". A small percentage of a $100,000+ salary is much less than that of the working pee-ons.

Shelter


Fully 46 percent of households classified as ?poor? own their own homes, which have three bedrooms, one and a half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio on average. According to Robert Rector and Kirk Johnson?s 2004 Heritage Foundation Report, ?Understanding Poverty In America,? these domiciles have more square footage available per person than does the typical (that is, non-poor) resident of London or Paris.

How many are making the mortgage payments consistently EVERY month (or do they skip a month here, late a month there, etc.)? Again, easy for someone who doesn't have to worry about it to complain when the pee-on may have a choice between eating or making the mortgage payment that month.


Health Care


Poor Americans receive free medical care thanks to Medicaid. Far from being a bare-bones policy, Medicaid covers such procedures as biofeedback, impotence treatment, sex-change operations, computerized tomography, and even obesity treatment. A glance at a recent ?Medicaid Coverage?What?s New? Webpage reveals that they?re planning to add the following treatments: magnetic resonance spectroscopy for brain tumors, radioimmunotherapy for non-Hodgkin?s lymphoma, oxaliplatin and irinotecan for colorectal cancer, ocular photodynamic therapy with verteporfin for macular degeneration, and FDG Positron Emission Tomography and other neuroimaging devices for suspected dementia. Were these treatments available even to billionaires 25 years ago?

Oooh...he has even looked at the income limits to qualify for medicaid? Make much over $500-600 a month (gross) and forget about it. This goes along with what Rip said in another thread while back that "well, people don't have healthcare but they can go to the emergency room if they need to". Who do you think pays for it when they can't afford it and can't pay the medical bills?
 
May 10, 2001
2,669
0
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Originally posted by: Acanthus
I have an incredible amt. of respect for Ben Stein, his views are clearly well thought out and researched.

My only question about what he said there was the public schools comment, as we all know not all public schools are created equally.

In my city alone (erie, PA) we have a school that tests in the top 100 in the US, (Millcreek School District : McDowell High School and Intermediate), and we have one of the lowest in the state. (Erie School District : Central High School).

i agree, but you always have an option to learn if you want it. I live in the poorest part of Texas with the worst schools, but went to the #8 high school in the country.. my school allowed anyone in and had less funding.

remember, not all students are created equal either: like it or not, bad schools are often that way not from under-funding, but from under parenting.
Far easier to look down at the "little people" and criticize them than to sit in their shoes
hi, I?m poor, I?m conservative, and Ben Stein is right. We have enough, we're prosperous enough, thanks for all the help, this level is fine, more would only encourage us to stay poor.

thanks!
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Originally posted by: cougarls88
Junk food and more junk food. Not to mention the food that is cheapest (chips, pasta, etc.) is fattening, while nutritious food (meat, fish, etc.) is borderline ridiculous. I guess he expects everyone to be able to afford prime rib or halibut every night.

Chicken, produce and many other "healthy" foods are more than "affordable" at the grocery store...often times I find the junk food is far more expensive than the decent stuff, sure some seafood is rather pricy but overall I would hardly label it as overly expensive, I think you are distorting reality with this point and grasping at straws, especially when you compare the cost of choice meats in this country to many many others.

How does he know where those $200 shoes came from? Stolen? Drug money? I always love these studies which quote "such and such" as being "a percentage of the family budget". A small percentage of a $100,000+ salary is much less than that of the working pee-ons.

Obviously you have never known anyone who isn't well to do, I have, alot of my friends when growing up lived in either section eight housing or their parents just barely got by, I also knew many who lived in not so nice areas...and all of them tended to spend far too much on goods which really weren't needed, funny as sneakers were the big thing. I remember two of my friends, both brothers, whose mother had died when they were young and elft only the father to support them and their two older brothers, would always get their father to buy them $200 sneakers when he could barely pay his rent along with other high end purchases that were totally un-necessary...when it came to food it took a back seat to designer clothing and nice footwear. I also find it funny that you assume the not to do resort to either stolen goods or drug money to afford their high end purchases, if anything all of them which I knew paid in full for what they wanted even though it took them alot of saving, generally it was the well to do kids who were more prone to selling drugs and or stealing.

How many are making the mortgage payments consistently EVERY month (or do they skip a month here, late a month there, etc.)? Again, easy for someone who doesn't have to worry about it to complain when the pee-on may have a choice between eating or making the mortgage payment that month.

maybe they should consider lower cost housing? here in massachusetts, a democrat controlled state it is nearly impossible due to the higher than normal cost of living so I guess your argument might work here...but then again Kerry has already said he would look to canada to procure drugs from which will weaken Massachusetts already weak economy and move more white collar jobs out of this country as much of Mass econ is based off biotech or pharma industry...but didn't he say he wouldn't do that?

Oooh...he has even looked at the income limits to qualify for medicaid? Make much over $500-600 a month (gross) and forget about it. This goes along with what Rip said in another thread while back that "well, people don't have healthcare but they can go to the emergency room if they need to". Who do you think pays for it when they can't afford it and can't pay the medical bills?


And a better solution is what? socialized health care? seems like that is working wonderfully in Canada....not.
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,459
527
126
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
More nonsense about the left being "traitors" and "hating America." Wow, that old schtick sure gets tired.

please Deal, just beacuse you don't agree with it then it should be discredited correct?

In the interview Mr. Stein was quick to point out how he knew many many democrats and leftists who were all wonderful people and how he respected their ideals, however his book is focusing on a few influential leftists who he feels paint a highly negative picture of the USA, which he considers one of if not the greatest country in the World (paraphrasing his interview)...

Personally I was amazed at just how articulate and intelligent Mr. Stein seemed to be, especially considering he is "famous" and an actor as generally one cannot use "intelligence" and actor in the same sentence...

However if you want to put on your blinders and ignore a different perspective from a seemingly intelligent person then by all means do what suits you best.
What's sad is this will be used to paint everyone left of the neocons as unpatriotic and traitorous. I fully agree that there are some on the far left that do more damage than good but I find it completely and utterly ridiculous to call anyone unpatriotic or un-American.

I've seen Ben Stein interviewed recently and I was truly disappointed in his falling back to parroting some of the most banal GOP talking points.

Conjur...look up the work patriot

Main Entry: pa·tri·ot
Pronunciation: 'pA-trE-&t, -"ät, chiefly British 'pa-trE-&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French patriote compatriot, from Late Latin patriota, from Greek patriOtEs, from patria lineage, from patr-, patEr father
: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests

Many on the left do not fit that definition


Now Patriotism

Main Entry: pa·tri·ot·ism
Pronunciation: 'pA-trE-&-"ti-z&m, chiefly British 'pa-
Function: noun
: love for or devotion to one's country

Not a love or devotion for those that burn the flag

Now traitor

Main Entry: trai·tor
Pronunciation: 'trA-t&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English traitre, from Old French, from Latin traditor, from tradere to hand over, deliver, betray, from trans-, tra- trans- + dare to give -- more at DATE
1 : one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty
2 : one who commits treason


Now traitorous

Main Entry: trai·tor·ous
Pronunciation: 'trA-t&-r&s, 'trA-tr&s
Function: adjective
1 : guilty or capable of treason
2 : constituting treason <traitorous activities>
synonym see FAITHLESS
- trai·tor·ous·ly adverb

Now Treason

Main Entry: trea·son
Pronunciation: 'trE-z&amp;n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English tresoun, from Old French traison, from Latin tradition-, traditio act of handing over, from tradere to hand over, betray -- more at TRAITOR
1 : the betrayal of a trust : TREACHERY
2 : the offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance or to kill or personally injure the sovereign or the sovereign's family

Now Treachery

Main Entry: treach·ery
Pronunciation: -rE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -er·ies
Etymology: Middle English trecherie, from Old French, from trechier, trichier to deceive, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin triccare -- more at TRICK
1 : violation of allegiance or of faith and confidence : TREASON
2 : an act of perfidy or treason


Many of us toss words around without knowing their true meaning....There is more to being a patriot than just being a citizen.
 

Mookow

Lifer
Apr 24, 2001
10,162
0
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Funny how he labels Gore as unpatriotic when under the Administration that Gore was part of America was stronger and more prosperous than it had been in been in 30 years and than it is now. Keep in mind that I do give the Republican Congress part of the credit too.

Even if we discount the fact that the president has very little real effect on the economy during the small number of years he is in office, the Clinton Administration had a couple advantages over previous and future administrations:
-Cold War had ended, large cuts in defense spending were made feasible (though, you can argue about just how much we should have cut)
-Tech market boomed for legitimate reasons
-Tech market boomed for less than legitimate reasons; people went absolutely head over heels on Wall Street for anything proceeded with an "e-", and threw cash at absolutely anything that was "online", even if it lacked a business plan. I'm not even talking a feasible business plan with a reasonable chance of making a profit, but just possession of a piece of paper that purported to be a business plan.
-Enron-style accounting that made the boom go higher than it would have otherwise.

Plus, the economy was already in decline when Clinton/Gore were leaving.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
More nonsense about the left being "traitors" and "hating America." Wow, that old schtick sure gets tired.

This is nothing new from Stein. He is in denial of the fact that as long as the US blindly supports Isreal and despotic regimes people will strike the US. The US will face the consequences of its foreign policies.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Mookow
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Funny how he labels Gore as unpatriotic when under the Administration that Gore was part of America was stronger and more prosperous than it had been in been in 30 years and than it is now. Keep in mind that I do give the Republican Congress part of the credit too.

Even if we discount the fact that the president has very little real effect on the economy during the small number of years he is in office, the Clinton Administration had a couple advantages over previous and future administrations:
-Cold War had ended, large cuts in defense spending were made feasible (though, you can argue about just how much we should have cut)
-Tech market boomed for legitimate reasons
-Tech market boomed for less than legitimate reasons; people went absolutely head over heels on Wall Street for anything proceeded with an "e-", and threw cash at absolutely anything that was "online", even if it lacked a business plan. I'm not even talking a feasible business plan with a reasonable chance of making a profit, but just possession of a piece of paper that purported to be a business plan.
-Enron-style accounting that made the boom go higher than it would have otherwise.

Plus, the economy was already in decline when Clinton/Gore were leaving.
All true. That still doesn't detract from my assertion that Gore acting as Vice President was anything close to being Anti American.


Originally posted by: shinerburke
Looks like a good read.....just ordered my copy from Amazon.
The Chior of your/his political denomination should love it!
 

Mookow

Lifer
Apr 24, 2001
10,162
0
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
All true. That still doesn't detract from my assertion that Gore acting as Vice President was anything close to being Anti American.

Depends on your vision/concept of America. His political stance sure didnt fit my definition of working to improve America, but rather the opposite.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Mookow
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
All true. That still doesn't detract from my assertion that Gore acting as Vice President was anything close to being Anti American.

Depends on your vision/concept of America. His political stance sure didnt fit my definition of working to improve America, but rather the opposite.
Well if your consept is the same as the Neo Conservatives in power now I guess I can understand how you would feel that way.
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
1
0
Originally posted by: Mookow
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
All true. That still doesn't detract from my assertion that Gore acting as Vice President was anything close to being Anti American.

Depends on your vision/concept of America. His political stance sure didnt fit my definition of working to improve America, but rather the opposite.
More like...

The people sick of hearing nothing but doom and gloom about this country all the time will love it.

No, the USA isn't perfect....but we are a lot damn better than the doom and gloomers on the left would have us believe. The only way they can stay in power is by keeping people divided and making them dependant on the government for their every need. Dependency breeds dependency......that's what the left is banking on.
 
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