Can Apple be sued for its "anti-competitive" behaviours?

[ViRGE]

What nonsense. They have used their dominant market position to push competitors out of the market. This is the definition of anti-competitive behaviour.

Apple's dominant market position in what? Apple products? They certainly aren't the dominating player in the smartphone market if you go by sales.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Apple's dominant market position in what? Apple products? They certainly aren't the dominating player in the smartphone market if you go by sales.

They are in consumer smart phones. And they DEFINITELY are in online app stores, which is the actual market we're talking about.

 

[BD2003]

They are in consumer smart phones. And they DEFINITELY are in online app stores, which is the actual market we're talking about.

Except theyre still far from a monopoly.

And even if they were, I've never heard of a precedent that said a store, online or not, has to sell anything but what it wants to.

 

[Pliablemoose]

They are in consumer smart phones. And they DEFINITELY are in online app stores, which is the actual market we're talking about.

What planet do you live on again GA?

Ever hear of a company called Nokia or Research in Motion?

Best way out of this one is to post that iPad pic in a torn back pocket yet again, what you've posted that pic maybe a dozen times now?

http://inventorspot.com/articles/nokia_symbian_smartphone_smarter_iphone_40092

http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=1306513

 

[Kmax82]

This is something I will never understand about monopolistic intervention in law.

Apple isn't the market leader in smart phones. There are 4 other BIG players in the smart phone game that people can go to if they aren't happy with the App Store, or Apple's policies. Apple isn't bound by law to make someone rich, or ensure that they can create a business using the iPhone. It's a wonderful by-product for some, but not something Apple should HAVE to be conscious of and make good product decisions for.

I would be in favor of the App Store still being more open, but by no means do I feel we have a right to publish apps on it. Just like if I went to Wal-Mart and wanted to sell something I had made, I don't have a right to demand that they sell it there.

I don't know. I just don't see how the iPhone is "hurting" competition. If anything it's bolstering it. Look how popular Android is getting. Windows Phone 7 is soon coming and it will be a game changer for Microsoft (at least one can hope). Blackberry has a new OS coming out soon.

And, even if Apple were the market leader, so what? How does having them approve apps, or deny cross compilers hurt the consumer? Other than possibly not having the software that you want, then I don't see it as problem. You just switch to another platform. It's not like the Microsoft monopoly wars when it was really the only enterprise viable solution. You have Android, Palm, Blackberry, Symbian, Windows Mobile, etc...

 

[Nothinman]

And, even if Apple were the market leader, so what? How does having them approve apps, or deny cross compilers hurt the consumer? Other than possibly not having the software that you want, then I don't see it as problem.

So draconian control by Apple that results in less options for the consumer isn't a problem?

I'm not saying that Apple should be legally bound to include every app every submitted, but clauses that allow them to deny apps that have duplicate functionality is bullshit because that means Apple gets to kill any app they want by superseding it with their own. And I gotta say, I probably trust Apple a lot less than RIM, MS and Google in that area.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Ever hear of a company called Nokia or Research in Motion?

and their market share in the online mobile app store market is ...?

 

[TheWart]

and their market share in the online mobile app store market is ...?

In terms of what? Apps for sale? Downloads? Revenues? Whatever metric, it is just a matter of time -probably months not years- before the Android store is at least at parity on all fronts, so I don't see your point.

 

[Pliablemoose]

and their market share in the online mobile app store market is ...?

OMFG, Apple wants to control their app store.

If a developer wants to write for the Android OS, theres nothing stopping them.

I would call that pretty healthy growth of the Android Apps.

 

[Kmax82]

So draconian control by Apple that results in less options for the consumer isn't a problem?

I'm not saying that Apple should be legally bound to include every app every submitted, but clauses that allow them to deny apps that have duplicate functionality is bullshit because that means Apple gets to kill any app they want by superseding it with their own. And I gotta say, I probably trust Apple a lot less than RIM, MS and Google in that area.

I guess I should've explained that a bit more.

I don't like that Apple has draconian control over the apps in the App Store, but to say it's anti-trust/anti-competitive isn't right either. It's their store. They can do what they want. And if it ever becomes a major problem for me, then I will switch. Right now, I can do what I want to on my phone, and the extras I can jailbreak for. I haven't ever felt hindered, as a consumer, by the choices Apple has made with the App Store. Because I have alternatives. I know I could go buy a NexusOne, or a Palm Pre, or a Blackberry, etc.. if I wanted to, or if the App Store ever got too much to bear.

So to sum it up, do I like the way Apple runs their store? No. Do I think they could still improve? Yes. But do I think it's against the law? No. Do I think they should be forced to change? No.

I think the developers need to get some balls and stand up to Apple if they really hate it that much. Yes, right now that's where money can be made, but if they hate it so much and there is so much angst over the policies, then leave. Make Android apps. Make WebOS apps, etc... If they just complain and don't actually do anything, then Apple will just keep doing what they want to do.

Right now, like I said, I have no problems with my iPhone. I can jailbreak and I can do everything I really would like to do with the phone. However, I will jump ship if something comes along that I really hate. Right now, though, I'm simply indifferent.

 

[Nothinman]

Right now, I can do what I want to on my phone, and the extras I can jailbreak for.

Jailbreaking shouldn't even come into it, if you've got to break into your phone to do something then your phone was broken to begin with.

So to sum it up, do I like the way Apple runs their store? No. Do I think they could still improve? Yes. But do I think it's against the law? No. Do I think they should be forced to change? No.

I'd have to agree. Even though I don't now and will never own an iPhone, I don't like how Apple does business (in pretty much any area) but I don't think there's any legal ground to force them to change.

 

[Cogman]

and their market share in the online mobile app store market is ...?

Bwhahahahaha. You obviously don't understand anti-competitive laws and what they mean.

Tell, what actions has the apple store taken against the google marketplace? None? Then whats the complaint?

Oh, your complaining that they refuse to sell some applications? Well guess what, they don't sell windows PCs at their stores either! OMG, isn't that wild? Companies can choose what products their stores sell! Incredible. You might as well start complaining about newegg because they don't sell oxyclean.

Or are you complaining that you can't develop a third party app for the iphone without going through the istore? Again, I point to the fact that apple is completely within their rights to deny whatever app they want from their store. They can control what apps are allowed on their OS and how their OS works. They aren't the only company producing smart phones, and they certainly don't have a giant lead over other smart phone providers (in terms of market shares/sales).

In no conceivable way is apple being anti-competitive. They aren't price fixing, they don't dominate any market place. They simply aren't in the position to be anti-competitive.

Oh, and BTW, I hate apple as a company, I also really dislike the way they run their Istore or the perpetuation of douchbaggery that constantly comes from a lot of their supporters. However, AFAIK, they aren't doing anything illegal.

 

[Kmax82]

Jailbreaking shouldn't even come into it, if you've got to break into your phone to do something then your phone was broken to begin with.

I guess so.. but since I can do it, then I don't feel like it was broken. Just like with OS X, or Windows.. I can install Hacks to change the way things work in those OS's.. so to me that doesn't mean that the OS was broken, just that I had a slightly different idea for it than was intended.

If jailbreaking is ever truly outlawed, then I will definitely have a huge problem with Apple and I will be switch to another Mobile OS as soon as I can.

 

[Nothinman]

I guess so.. but since I can do it, then I don't feel like it was broken. Just like with OS X, or Windows.. I can install Hacks to change the way things work in those OS's.. so to me that doesn't mean that the OS was broken, just that I had a slightly different idea for it than was intended.

If jailbreaking is ever truly outlawed, then I will definitely have a huge problem with Apple and I will be switch to another Mobile OS as soon as I can.

The first time I tried to background Pandora and it stopped playing I'd consider the phone broken.

 

[Kmax82]

The first time I tried to background Pandora and it stopped playing I'd consider the phone broken.

To each their own. I don't listen to Pandora much because it totally kills my battery. In 30 min time I will be down to 90% from a full charge.

 

[Nothinman]

To each their own. I don't listen to Pandora much because it totally kills my battery. In 30 min time I will be down to 90% from a full charge.

I don't do it all the time, but I like putting it on my car instead of the regular radio so the battery usage isn't a big deal.

 

[Kmax82]

I don't do it all the time, but I like putting it on my car instead of the regular radio so the battery usage isn't a big deal.

Gotcha.. well that will be fixed here in 4.0.

The funny part about this whole situation with the SDK rules changing, is that PhoneGap has been granted a reprieve from that section. That's a cross compiler but it uses HTML/JS/CSS, rather than Flash's AS3. Heh.. I had a feeling this was going to happen. :/ Apple yet again being fickle about their own rules.

http://www.phonegap.com/2010/04/14/phonegap-and-the-apple-developer-license-agreement/

 

[ChAoTiCpInOy]

Just remember, Apple did approve the Opera browser which I think does duplicate existing functionality. So can you call that "anti-competitive" behavior?

 

[Nothinman]

Just remember, Apple did approve the Opera browser which I think does duplicate existing functionality. So can you call that "anti-competitive" behavior?

I would guess that they only did that because it was getting a lot of press. And AFAIK the clause still exists so they could always decide to remove and deny it later on again if they feel like it.

 

[TheStu]

I would guess that they only did that because it was getting a lot of press. And AFAIK the clause still exists so they could always decide to remove and deny it later on again if they feel like it.

There are other browsers available in the app store as well.

I think that what wouldn't fly would be another picture manager. Another video player, another mp3 player.

Each of these things would require a great deal of internal space, and a way to sync it back over, or would need to be able to access the existing data. I am not saying that these are insurmountable, or even necessarily hard, just that I think that is where Apple draws the line.

More examples or clear cut rules would be useful here.

 

[ChAoTiCpInOy]

App Store rules are still being developed. I mean it took them almost over a year IIRC to have some sort of way for developers to find out where in the process their app is.

And I think the Google Voice app is still "being tested".

 

[Nothinman]

I think that what wouldn't fly would be another picture manager. Another video player, another mp3 player.

Each of these things would require a great deal of internal space, and a way to sync it back over, or would need to be able to access the existing data. I am not saying that these are insurmountable, or even necessarily hard, just that I think that is where Apple draws the line.

So? That's why I have an 8G microSD card in my Storm.

 

[ChAoTiCpInOy]

iPhones come with at least 8GB of storage.

 

[TheStu]

iPhones come with at least 8GB of storage.

If you were commenting on Nothinman's comment, then I believe his point was that there is little need for storage capacity concerns when you can carry gigs upon gigs on a card the size of your thumbnail.

If you were commenting on my comment, then I don't have much of a rebuttal other than to say that I have a ~25GB music library, and a ~15GB photo library. I do not put videos on my iPhone, and cannot store all my photos or music, and certainly not both. What I absolutely could not store would be potential duplicates of all of these files just because a developer either cannot or will not tap into the existing files.

I am not defending Apple's arbitrary rejection process in earnest, merely playing devil's advocate.

 

[lsquare]

Except theyre still far from a monopoly.

And even if they were, I've never heard of a precedent that said a store, online or not, has to sell anything but what it wants to.

In this case, Apple makes it hard if not impossible unless you jailbreak your phone to get third-party applications.