Can global warming effect Mars?

[Noworkia]

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/newsroom/20050920a.html
New gullies that did not exist in mid-2002 have appeared on a Martian sand dune.

That's just one of the surprising discoveries that have resulted from the extended life of NASA's Mars Global Surveyor, which this month began its ninth year in orbit around Mars. Boulders tumbling down a Martian slope left tracks that weren't there two years ago. New impact craters formed since the 1970s suggest changes to age-estimating models. And for three Mars summers in a row, deposits of frozen carbon dioxide near Mars' south pole have shrunk from the previous year's size, suggesting a climate change in progress.

 

[icarus4586]

Obviously, there are no humans driving around in cars and burning coal to create greenhouse gases. There are also no bacteria that would release greenhouse gases. (OK, so there *could* be some, but not enough to make a difference)
The only thing I could think of is that the CO2 evaporating from the polar caps could be having an effect.
It doesn't have to be global warming though. The sun goes through phases that change its energy output, "wobble" in a planet's orbit, and other things can all cause climate change.

 

[Noworkia]

So, if Mars is so much further from the Sun than Earth and it gets a faction of energy from the Sun as the Earth receives, then is the sun warming the Earth too?

 

[The Boston Dangler]

It's possible gases are seeping out of rock. Unfortunately, Mars' gravity can't retain a decent atmosphere.

 

[makken]

Originally posted by: The Boston Dangler
It's possible gases are seeping out of rock. Unfortunately, Mars' gravity can't retain a decent atmosphere.

awee does that mean terraforming mars is out of the question?

 

[The Boston Dangler]

Unless we build a huge plastic bubble around it................

 

[rahvin]

Solar activity contributes to global temperatures, IIRC solar surface tempatures and emissions have increased over the last decade.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Noworkia
is the sun warming the Earth too?

Ummm..........................

 

[Jeff7]

It also looks sort of like a landslide, like that entire wedge of sand and dirt just started to slide to the left.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: The Boston Dangler
It's possible gases are seeping out of rock. Unfortunately, Mars' gravity can't retain a decent atmosphere.

What about Titan? Atmosphere there.
Diameter of Titan: 5150 KM
Density: approx 2000kg/m^3

Diameter of Mars: 6,794 KM
Density of Mars: 3930kg/m^3

Mars is larger, denser, and warmer. If Titan can have an atmosphere, Mars should be able to have one, right? Seems that it just doesn't have it right now.

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Noworkia
is the sun warming the Earth too?

Ummm..........................

Little known fact, the sun actually has little effect on Earth's temperature, at least directly. It's the light reflecting off of Venus and Mercury, and the moon acts as a gravitational lens, phasing the light to a different wavelength - that's how we can see it.
Duh.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

The Martian atmosphere is pathetically thin. Mars' mass couldn't hold onto the atmosphere it once had.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: The Boston Dangler
The Martian atmosphere is pathetically thin. Mars' mass couldn't hold onto the atmosphere it once had.

I know that it's thin presently.
The point I was making is that, Mars is a bit larger, and considerably denser than Titan, and thus it'd have more gravity. And yet, Titan has a substantial atmosphere.

 

[f95toli]

I might be wrong but I think I read somewhere that the lack of atmosphere is due to the fact that Mars does not have its own magnetic field.
This means that the atmosphere is directly exposed to the solar wind which slowly "erodes" the atmosphere by carrying the gases into space. 2-3 billon years ago the atmosphere on Mars was probably quite similar to what we have on earth now.

Here on earth we are proteced by our magnetic field, and as a bonus we get auroras which are nice to look at

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Jeff7
Little known fact, the sun actually has little effect on Earth's temperature, at least directly. It's the light reflecting off of Venus and Mercury, and the moon acts as a gravitational lens, phasing the light to a different wavelength - that's how we can see it.
Duh.

I hope you're kidding.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: The Boston Dangler
The Martian atmosphere is pathetically thin. Mars' mass couldn't hold onto the atmosphere it once had.

I know that it's thin presently.
The point I was making is that, Mars is a bit larger, and considerably denser than Titan, and thus it'd have more gravity. And yet, Titan has a substantial atmosphere.

The composition of the atmosphere plays a large role in that. Titan's atmosphere contains a lot of heavier gases (lots of hydrocarbons), Mars on the other hand has lighter gases (CO2). Rotation and other things also play a role. For reference compare the Earth with Venus, approximately the same size and Venus has an atmosphere that is 1000 times denser on the surface than the earths primarily because the atmosphere is comprised of heavier gases (sulfides) than that pressent on the earth.

As far as your gravitational lens comment, maybe you shouldn't post in this forum and possibly pettion for a dumbass or sarcasm forum to be created depending on your actual intent with that comment.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

I did overlook the lack of magnetic field.
That being said, swamp gas reflected off a weather balloon, during an eclipse.....lol

 

[Wreckage]

If you want to see global warming on crack, just look at the planet Venus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_%28planet%29

 

[Vee]

Originally posted by: f95toli
I might be wrong but I think I read somewhere that the lack of atmosphere is due to the fact that Mars does not have its own magnetic field.
This means that the atmosphere is directly exposed to the solar wind which slowly "erodes" the atmosphere by carrying the gases into space. 2-3 billon years ago the atmosphere on Mars was probably quite similar to what we have on earth now.

You are correct, but then you usually are
I don't think the mass and gravity of Mars is inadequate.
Lack of magnetic field is the biggest hurdle to overcome in terraforming Mars.
...Then the moons are bit on the small side.

Edit: Titan has a nitrogen rich atmosphere, like Earth, but is not only farther away from the sun but also, I think, protected by being inside Saturnian magnetosphere.

 

[Vee]

Originally posted by: rahvin
Solar activity contributes to global temperatures, IIRC solar surface tempatures and emissions have increased over the last decade.

Temperature on Earth is mostly due to complex regulating mechanisms in our biosphere, atmosphere, oceans and polar regions. Failure to realize that at political levels will lead to catastrophic consequences.
These mechanisms probably have the ability to compensate well for some variations in solar radiation.

Blaming the global heating that is really due to greenhouse gases on increased solar activity seem to me to be just a way to feel good about owning a SUV.
(I'm not saying you are doing that. I'm just making a comment.)
And yes, it seems reasonable to assume that solar activity can contribute to global temperatures. I'm not sure that it does though. I seem to remember differently than you, but I may be looking further back than last decade. Wasn't solar heating down for a while? But then again, that would be part background for the increase since.

 

[Woodchuck2000]

Originally posted by: Vee

Originally posted by: rahvin
Solar activity contributes to global temperatures, IIRC solar surface tempatures and emissions have increased over the last decade.

Temperature on Earth is mostly due to complex regulating mechanisms in our biosphere, atmosphere, oceans and polar regions. Failure to realize that at political levels will lead to catastrophic consequences.
These mechanisms probably have the ability to compensate well for some variations in solar radiation.

Blaming the global heating that is really due to greenhouse gases on increased solar activity seem to me to be just a way to feel good about owning a SUV.
(I'm not saying you are doing that. I'm just making a comment.)
And yes, it seems reasonable to assume that solar activity can contribute to global temperatures. I'm not sure that it does though. I seem to remember differently than you, but I may be looking further back than last decade. Wasn't solar heating down for a while? But then again, that would be part background for the increase since.

Solar activity can contribute to global temperatures??

Let's try an experiment. Record the average temperature while the sun is heating the earth (we'll call this day for ease of reference) and the average when it's not (ooh, how about night, folks). I'm willing to bet that the former is higher. Let's then imagine for a moment that we can vary the intensity of the Sun's rays, calling it something like summer for high intensity, and winter for low intensity. My theory would suggest the following:

In the day it will be hotter than the night. In winter it will be cooler than in summer.

THE SUN IS THE PRIMARY FACTOR DETERMINING THE TEMPERATURE OF ANY GIVEN POINT ON THE EARTH'S SURFACE. QED.

If the sun's output increases by 5% over a period of time, temperatures on earth will increase similarly.

The specifics are indeed governed by the composition of the atmosphere and heat sinks such as large bodies of water but if you switch the sun off it'll get pretty cold pretty quickly.

 

[DrPizza]

Just making sure...
You realize we're farther away from the sun in the summer and closer in the winter, right? (for the Northern Hemisphere)
Thus, what do you mean by intensity on a global scale, since we're talking about the earth and just not a specific locale?

Anyway, I think you misinterpreted what was meant by "solar activity can contribute" -
I don't think the poster of that meant "the sun", rather, he meant that "stuff that's changing on the sun can contribute" i.e. "activity" - increased or decreased sunspots, changes in surface temp of the sun, etc.

 

[Noworkia]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
If you want to see global warming on crack, just look at the planet Venus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_%28planet%29

Why is Venus "global warming on crack"?

 

[Vee]

Originally posted by: Woodchuck2000
If the sun's output increases by 5% over a period of time, temperatures on earth will increase similarly.

Dear Woodchuck2000, you have completely misunderstood the discussion.
I'm sure you have already realized that yourself, so let's leave that part.



Now to something interesting instead:
"...temperatures on earth will increase similarly."
"similarly", that would mean 14-15 deg C for 5%, wouldn't it?
Personally, I do not believe so, which was sort of my point.

Solar activity does vary over time. Not 5%, but maybe almost 1% over decades and centuries, I'm not sure, "IIRC" .
Anyway, "similarly" that would still mean like 3 deg C? That's awesome and does not seem to have been happening.
Question is how much Solar variations affect Earth's climate.

There has been an awful lot of research, during like 80 years, that has attempted to see a correlation between Sun activity and climate periods. Occasionally, there have been claims that such correlation have been found. However, all such claims have eventually been shot down, AFAIK.
They have been shown to be due to coincidences. Sometimes, what was thought to be a global climate variation has been shown to be only a regional variation, and sometimes dust from volcanos were involved.

The latest I heard, a study concluded that sun activity cannot have contributed to more than at the very most 30% of variation in climate. That doesn't mean that the Sun has 30% influence. It doesn't even mean the Sun have 10% influence. It only means it cannot possibly have had more than 30% influence, according to the data we have and the lack of correlation. (I think someone else was more generous and said 50%.)

Studies are almost always wrong about something. I'm sure we haven't heard the last about this. But personally, my conviction runs towards that the Earth has a climate system that to some significant degree 'thermostats' out the Sun.
(This isn't hard to imagine. Just consider the effects of formation of cloads, for instance.)
And that climate variations have been mostly due to some kind of fluctuations in that very system.
I do not, of course, know that, but I believe so.

Anyway, if you now instead 'turn the thermostat knob'...
It seems we're moving rapidly towards a climate change of a magnitude that lacks precedence. That change doesn't lack an explanation. On the contrary it has been predicted for a long time and is following predictions nicely enough.
...And that prediction is not based on sun activity.

 

[Skyhanger]

Originally posted by: Noworkia

Originally posted by: Wreckage
If you want to see global warming on crack, just look at the planet Venus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_%28planet%29

Why is Venus "global warming on crack"?

Just read the stupid wikipedia article...

 

[Noworkia]

Originally posted by: Skyhanger

Originally posted by: Noworkia

Originally posted by: Wreckage
If you want to see global warming on crack, just look at the planet Venus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_%28planet%29

Why is Venus "global warming on crack"?

Just read the stupid wikipedia article...

I couldn't find any of the following words; global, warming, crack.