Can global warming effect Mars?

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Skyhanger

Senior member
Jul 16, 2005
341
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Originally posted by: Noworkia
Originally posted by: Skyhanger
Originally posted by: Noworkia
Originally posted by: Wreckage
If you want to see global warming on crack, just look at the planet Venus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_%28planet%29

Why is Venus "global warming on crack"?

Just read the stupid wikipedia article...

I couldn't find any of the following words; global, warming, crack.

Global Warming is a Earth specific word. Look for "Greenhouse effect"

"Venus has an atmosphere consisting mainly of carbon dioxide and a small amount of nitrogen, with a pressure at the surface about 90 times that of Earth (a pressure equivalent to a depth of 1 kilometre under Earth's oceans). This enormously CO2-rich atmosphere results in a strong greenhouse effect that raises the surface temperature more than 400°C (750°F) above what it would be otherwise, causing temperatures at the surface to reach extremes as great as 500°C (930°F) in low elevation regions near the planet's equator. This makes Venus's surface hotter than Mercury's, even though Venus is nearly twice as distant from the Sun and only receives 25% of the solar irradiance (2613.9 W/m² in the upper atmosphere, and just 1071.1 W/m² at the surface). Owing to the thermal inertia and convection of its dense atmosphere, the temperature does not vary significantly between the night and day sides of Venus despite its extremely slow rotation (less than one rotation per Venusian year; at the equator, Venus's surface rotates at a mere 6.5 km/h (4 mph)). Winds in the upper atmosphere circle the planet in only 4 days, helping to distribute the heat."

Greenhouse effect resulting in +400C in temperature... that must be hot. If that wasn't in effect, Venus could potentially be as cool as Earth.
 

Noworkia

Member
Aug 21, 2004
33
0
0
Originally posted by: Skyhanger
Originally posted by: Noworkia
Originally posted by: Skyhanger
Originally posted by: Noworkia
Originally posted by: Wreckage
If you want to see global warming on crack, just look at the planet Venus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_%28planet%29

Why is Venus "global warming on crack"?

Just read the stupid wikipedia article...

I couldn't find any of the following words; global, warming, crack.

Global Warming is a Earth specific word. Look for "Greenhouse effect"

"Venus has an atmosphere consisting mainly of carbon dioxide and a small amount of nitrogen, with a pressure at the surface about 90 times that of Earth (a pressure equivalent to a depth of 1 kilometre under Earth's oceans). This enormously CO2-rich atmosphere results in a strong greenhouse effect that raises the surface temperature more than 400°C (750°F) above what it would be otherwise, causing temperatures at the surface to reach extremes as great as 500°C (930°F) in low elevation regions near the planet's equator. This makes Venus's surface hotter than Mercury's, even though Venus is nearly twice as distant from the Sun and only receives 25% of the solar irradiance (2613.9 W/m² in the upper atmosphere, and just 1071.1 W/m² at the surface). Owing to the thermal inertia and convection of its dense atmosphere, the temperature does not vary significantly between the night and day sides of Venus despite its extremely slow rotation (less than one rotation per Venusian year; at the equator, Venus's surface rotates at a mere 6.5 km/h (4 mph)). Winds in the upper atmosphere circle the planet in only 4 days, helping to distribute the heat."

Greenhouse effect resulting in +400C in temperature... that must be hot. If that wasn't in effect, Venus could potentially be as cool as Earth.


But that totally ignores Amonton's Law "P a T", "the pressure of a gas is directly proportional to its temperature, of constant volume"
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/ch4/gaslaws3.html#amonton
T(k) = 273.15 * P(atm)

And Charles Law "At any constant pressure, the volume of any sample of any gas is directly proportional to the temperature.", "V = k't + k"
http://www.ualberta.ca/~jplambec/che/p101/p01042.htm

Venus has a atmosphere of 9.3Mpa or 92 times standard atmosphereic pressure, that amounts to a huge thermal inertia effect. Which the temperature would not be just 273.15 * 92, because expanding volume of the heated atmosphere and of the Stefan-Boltzmann law of radiating energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan-Boltzmann_law

No planet in the solar system can match Venus' atmosphere pressure, save Neptune.
 

f95toli

Golden Member
Nov 21, 2002
1,547
0
0
What are you trying to explain?

The reason for the greenhouse effect on Venus is that there is a log of CO2 in the atmosphere. CO2 is a greenhouse gas, if you replace the CO2 with e.g. N2 the temperature would drop (because N2 is not a greenhouse gas)
.
That is why Venus is a good example of the greenhouse effect.

pV=nRT is not relevant

 

Matthew Daws

Member
Oct 19, 1999
31
0
0
Noworkia, Yes, that's right, on Earth, everything under pressure is really hot: I mean, I can't even pick up the gas canister I take hiking, it's so hot! And deep-sea divers have to wear protective heat equipment. More seriously, the equations you quote relate to *work done* on a gas: if I compress something, it does get hot, as work is being done on it, but then, pretty obviously, it cools down. That's why my gas canister does get cold when I use it. I really don't see how one could naively apply these to an entire planet though: as I suggested sarcastically, there are massive pressures generated under the sea, and lots of gas trapped down there, but it's not all super-heated. I thought it was pretty much settled that Venus is an example of extreme "greenhouse gas effect".

Copied from the Wiki talk page:

"The Earth has little carbon dioxide in its atmosphere but far more locked in carbonate rocks. There's enough carbon dioxide in the Earth's rocks to allow a Venus-like density if it were released. More significantly, the Earth's water has a huge volume of material (water, of course) that would become atmosphere if the Earth were to be warmed to Venus-like temperatures. Most theories hold that as the sun expands to a gas giant toward the end of its life, the Earth will slowly be warmed to temperatures around 60°C, at which point a runaway greenhouse effect will take effect, and then temperatures will skyrocket. An increasing load of water vapor will itself add density to the atmosphere (that itself raising the temperature) and accelerate the greenhouse effect, until at roughly 305°C, the critical point of water, the greenhouse effect from water vapor will no longer cause further heating. Any increased temperatures will result from the further expansion of the sun, and at another point, carbon dioxide will be released from carbonate rocks.

With an even higher pressure, the Earth would become even hotter than Venus even if the upper atmosphere clouds enough to prevent any sunlight from reaching the Earth's surface. But the Earth's seething surface will be anything but dark; its rocks will radiate heat which will likewise be prevented from escaping through the same clouds that prevent the entry of all but the dimmest sunlight.

Don't be unduly scared. This won't happen for hundreds of millions of years. So far, the Earth has a relatively thin atmosphere, much unlike that of Venus, that isn't very good at holding onto heat. We still have real winters from about 35° north and south poleward, and real nights everywhere. We are safe so far from the runaway greenhouse effect, and the carbon dioxide that would make the Earth a Hellish place is safely locked away.

Venus, in contrast, is too hot to have any carbonate rocks. It's also too hot to hold water vapor. An atmosphere as crushing as that of Venus is hot in its own right. The perfect gas law (PV=nRT) implies that temperature is proportional to pressure, and Venus has enough atmospheric pressure to be exceedingly hot in its own right.--66.231.38.97 01:20, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)"
 

Skyhanger

Senior member
Jul 16, 2005
341
0
0
You guys might be interested to read this article...

Terraforming

I don't get why all the emphasis is on colonizing Mars. There's so many things to do at once. As for Venus, all you need to do is to take care of the atmosphere, (fix it into carbonate form or whatsoever) and it's pretty much mostly habitable. Not to mention similar gravity, etc.
 

Noworkia

Member
Aug 21, 2004
33
0
0
Originally posted by: Matthew Daws
Noworkia, Yes, that's right, on Earth, everything under pressure is really hot: I mean, I can't even pick up the gas canister I take hiking, it's so hot! And deep-sea divers have to wear protective heat equipment. More seriously, the equations you quote relate to *work done* on a gas: if I compress something, it does get hot, as work is being done on it, but then, pretty obviously, it cools down. That's why my gas canister does get cold when I use it. I really don't see how one could naively apply these to an entire planet though: as I suggested sarcastically, there are massive pressures generated under the sea, and lots of gas trapped down there, but it's not all super-heated. I thought it was pretty much settled that Venus is an example of extreme "greenhouse gas effect".

That is due to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan-Boltzmann_law. The heat generated from the pressure is released in to the environment. But some people that think in small gas canister scale, probably think the inside of the earth is cold too.
 

Vee

Senior member
Jun 18, 2004
689
0
0
Pressure itself does not generate heat.

Noworkia, Matthew Daws is completely correct (though maybe inappropriately sarcastic) and you are misunderstanding and misapplying you gas laws.

Heat is energy. If something gets hotter it's because it recieves a transfer of energy.
The notion that pressure generates heat is so curious, I must confess I made a search for other posts by you, in order to make up my mind about you being a troll or not. Sorry, no offense. You're obviously not a troll. You also seem to have some understanding about thermodynamic engines. I assume that interest has lead you astray in this matter.

Anyway. Venus temperature is in a state of equilibrium. It radiates and reflects the same amount of energy to space, as it recieves from the Sun.
In this case it's really the absorbed and radiated energies that are interesting.
Due to the greenhouse effect of CO2, the temperature of Venus simply has to rise to close to 800 deg K, in order for Venus to be 'hot enough' to be able to radiate the same amount of energy that it absorbs. It's as simple as that.
Were Venus to have a nitrogen atmosphere instead, Venus would be much, much cooler.

(...And the Earth is hot inside due to nuclear reactions in the core.)
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
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www.slatebrookfarm.com
Originally posted by: Skyhanger
You guys might be interested to read this article...

Terraforming

I don't get why all the emphasis is on colonizing Mars. There's so many things to do at once. As for Venus, all you need to do is to take care of the atmosphere, (fix it into carbonate form or whatsoever) and it's pretty much mostly habitable. Not to mention similar gravity, etc.

I could be mistaken, but I thought it was super difficult to get rid of that volume of CO2 at that temperature... i.e. at that temperature, carbonates would decay to CO2. I could be wrong though...
 

Noworkia

Member
Aug 21, 2004
33
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0
Originally posted by: Vee
Pressure itself does not generate heat.

Noworkia, Matthew Daws is completely correct (though maybe inappropriately sarcastic) and you are misunderstanding and misapplying you gas laws.

Heat is energy. If something gets hotter it's because it recieves a transfer of energy.
The notion that pressure generates heat is so curious, I must confess I made a search for other posts by you, in order to make up my mind about you being a troll or not. Sorry, no offense. You're obviously not a troll. You also seem to have some understanding about thermodynamic engines. I assume that interest has lead you astray in this matter.

Anyway. Venus temperature is in a state of equilibrium. It radiates and reflects the same amount of energy to space, as it recieves from the Sun.
In this case it's really the absorbed and radiated energies that are interesting.
Due to the greenhouse effect of CO2, the temperature of Venus simply has to rise to close to 800 deg K, in order for Venus to be 'hot enough' to be able to radiate the same amount of energy that it absorbs. It's as simple as that.
Were Venus to have a nitrogen atmosphere instead, Venus would be much, much cooler.

(...And the Earth is hot inside due to nuclear reactions in the core.)

So, I guess wiki's statement is wrong.

The solar irradiance is so much lower at the surface of Venus because the planet's thick cloud cover reflects the majority of the sunlight back into space. This prevents most of the sunlight from ever heating the surface. Venus's bolometric albedo is approximately 60%, and its visual light albedo is even greater. Thus, despite being closer to the Sun than Earth, the surface of Venus is not as well heated and even less well lit by the Sun.
 

Noworkia

Member
Aug 21, 2004
33
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Originally posted by: Vee(...And the Earth is hot inside due to nuclear reactions in the core.)


That is an amazing statement. I have never read that any where. Do you have a link to that?
 

Machupo

Golden Member
Dec 15, 1999
1,535
0
76
www.overclockers-network.com
Originally posted by: DrPizza
Originally posted by: Skyhanger
You guys might be interested to read this article...

Terraforming

I don't get why all the emphasis is on colonizing Mars. There's so many things to do at once. As for Venus, all you need to do is to take care of the atmosphere, (fix it into carbonate form or whatsoever) and it's pretty much mostly habitable. Not to mention similar gravity, etc.

I could be mistaken, but I thought it was super difficult to get rid of that volume of CO2 at that temperature... i.e. at that temperature, carbonates would decay to CO2. I could be wrong though...


not to mention that we'd somehow have to figure out how to increase the rotational speed of the planet to keep from getting horrific sunburns
 

boggsie

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2000
2,326
1
81
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Jeff7
Little known fact, the sun actually has little effect on Earth's temperature, at least directly. It's the light reflecting off of Venus and Mercury, and the moon acts as a gravitational lens, phasing the light to a different wavelength - that's how we can see it.
Duh.
I hope you're kidding.

My sarcasm meter was going crazy. So is mine broken or is yours?
 

Vee

Senior member
Jun 18, 2004
689
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0
Originally posted by: Noworkia
[So, I guess wiki's statement is wrong.

The solar irradiance is so much lower at the surface of Venus because the planet's thick cloud cover reflects the majority of the sunlight back into space. This prevents most of the sunlight from ever heating the surface. Venus's bolometric albedo is approximately 60%, and its visual light albedo is even greater. Thus, despite being closer to the Sun than Earth, the surface of Venus is not as well heated and even less well lit by the Sun.

- Why?
In what way is what I said contradictory to any of that?
And why did you ignore the text preceding the part you quoted?

Maybe if you would explain in your own words what goes on inside your head? (instead of linking to or quoting texts that have limited direct bearing on matters discussed.)
 

Vee

Senior member
Jun 18, 2004
689
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0
Originally posted by: Noworkia
That is an amazing statement. I have never read that any where. Do you have a link to that?

He, he.
Well, first of all the background for any of this is of course that really a lot of the heat is energy from the work by gravity on matter during the condensation and forming of Earth. So against that my statement is somewhat wrong.

I'm quite prepared to be wrong about the rest too. Little is known about the inside of the Earth. But here's a text on some of the theory:

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0404/0404046.pdf

And here's a newsflash from this summer:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18725103.700

 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,037
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Originally posted by: The Boston Dangler
Unless we build a huge plastic bubble around it................

Now that would be cool. Turn it into one big greenhouse.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Jeff7
Little known fact, the sun actually has little effect on Earth's temperature, at least directly. It's the light reflecting off of Venus and Mercury, and the moon acts as a gravitational lens, phasing the light to a different wavelength - that's how we can see it.
Duh.
I hope you're kidding.

You hope correctly.
It was along the lines of what the Boston Dangler posted:
"That being said, swamp gas reflected off a weather balloon, during an eclipse.....lol"



Pressure itself does not generate heat.
Right. If it did, we wouldn't have to bother with these expensive RTG's on spacecraft. Just send along a can of spraypaint, or a 2L soda bottle. They're under pressure, right?


Concerning the atomic energy from Earth's core, I think "nuclear reaction" has the wrong connotation. Nuclear decay would be more accurate, as far as my understanding of it goes.
 

unipidity

Member
Mar 15, 2004
163
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"Concerning the atomic energy from Earth's core, I think "nuclear reaction" has the wrong connotation. Nuclear decay would be more accurate, as far as my understanding of it goes."

I agree, for the most part. But Forumers might find this interesting; there does exist one natural 'nuclear reactor' in which a supercrtical reaction occured due to a build up of Urainium ore and water. Its in Gabon. Im sure Wiki or at worst Google will have a ton of info. One of the most important bits of geology around, at least as far as physicists are concerned.
 

JF060392

Senior member
Apr 2, 2005
348
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0
earth has a gravity of 1.00 mars has 0.38 of earths gravity. venus only holds a sufficiant atmosphere because its gravity is above .50 so if we can find a way to get mars's gravity 0.12 higher than it is curently than we may have a chance of terraforming it. any one with an idea of how to add gravity to a planet?
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,709
11
81
Originally posted by: f95toli
I might be wrong but I think I read somewhere that the lack of atmosphere is due to the fact that Mars does not have its own magnetic field.
This means that the atmosphere is directly exposed to the solar wind which slowly "erodes" the atmosphere by carrying the gases into space. 2-3 billon years ago the atmosphere on Mars was probably quite similar to what we have on earth now.

Here on earth we are proteced by our magnetic field, and as a bonus we get auroras which are nice to look at

Probably quite true, but I also think temperature has something to do with it. Titan is much colder, which means its gas molecules are moving much more slowly, which means it's easier to hold on to them
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,709
11
81
Originally posted by: Noworkia
But that totally ignores Amonton's Law "P a T", "the pressure of a gas is directly proportional to its temperature, of constant volume"
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/ch4/gaslaws3.html#amonton
T(k) = 273.15 * P(atm)

And Charles Law "At any constant pressure, the volume of any sample of any gas is directly proportional to the temperature.", "V = k't + k"
http://www.ualberta.ca/~jplambec/che/p101/p01042.htm

Venus has a atmosphere of 9.3Mpa or 92 times standard atmosphereic pressure, that amounts to a huge thermal inertia effect. Which the temperature would not be just 273.15 * 92, because expanding volume of the heated atmosphere and of the Stefan-Boltzmann law of radiating energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan-Boltzmann_law

No planet in the solar system can match Venus' atmosphere pressure, save Neptune.

Venus' atmosphere is probably not a good approximation to an ideal gas...

And I'm quite sure Saturn and Jupiter trump Venus' atmospheric pressure quite handily with talk of solid metallic hydrogen possibly being present
 

Calin

Diamond Member
Apr 9, 2001
3,112
0
0
Originally posted by: Jeff7
Originally posted by: The Boston Dangler
It's possible gases are seeping out of rock. Unfortunately, Mars' gravity can't retain a decent atmosphere.

What about Titan? Atmosphere there.
Diameter of Titan: 5150 KM
Density: approx 2000kg/m^3

Diameter of Mars: 6,794 KM
Density of Mars: 3930kg/m^3

Mars is larger, denser, and warmer. If Titan can have an atmosphere, Mars should be able to have one, right? Seems that it just doesn't have it right now.


Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Noworkia
is the sun warming the Earth too?
Ummm..........................

Little known fact, the sun actually has little effect on Earth's temperature, at least directly. It's the light reflecting off of Venus and Mercury, and the moon acts as a gravitational lens, phasing the light to a different wavelength - that's how we can see it.
Duh.

As the temperature increase, the atmosphere tend to "evaporate" in the outer space. The speed of the atmosphere molecules (see Brownian movement or molecular movement) increases with the temperature (well, temperature is a measure of the energy of molecules). So, a hot planet will have fewer chances to retain a atmosphere than a colder identical planet
 
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