Can real civil discourse and good governance exist in our current 2-party paradigm?

[shortylickens]

it has nothing to do with the two party system.

its cuz Americans got lazy and apathetic and started letting media moguls run their lives. now we have a couple hundred million people damn near brain washed into thinking EVERYTHING is a war for our souls. And I dont see it getting any better. the nation is gonna collapse before we pull our heads out of our butts.

 

[dank69]

Your first comments gets to one of my points- the system we're in can't fix itself. The second comment... I think they served a purpose in the past but times have changed. The people have changed, the government has changed, ideas have changed, the world has changed. In our current environment the parties are doing more harm than good.

Oh, times have changed. How enlightening.

 

[Pohemi]

Putting something in quotes, especially if it's not representative of what I'm saying, is not paraphrasing. Same old P&N... no gray, no nuance, no context, no reasoning?

Not representative of what you said? Now you're just being dishonest as well..

Yes, I mistakenly used regular, double quotations instead of the more proper single variety. And so you use it to start dancing. You are a clown.

Carry on, clown.

 

[Pohemi]

I'll just copy and paste this again.... a both sides thing:
Beholden to special interests
Lack of independent thinking
Creating rigged and corrupt policies and election laws that favor them and stifle choice and competition
Lack of honesty and integrity
Permanent campaign
Blank check spending
Intrusive/oppressive laws
Short term focus
Oblivious to negative externalities and unintended consequences
... more, and more, and more (including horrible policy prescriptions)

They do all of these things at the expense of the people and good government

No, they don't. Not everyone, not all of it, and nowhere near equally.

And you still provide no documented examples, just your own generalized statements, based on feelings (whether there's any truth or not). Just because you say something and repeat it, doesn't automatically make it so or the statement true.

Oh lord, the Republican Party attempted to end the republic? How can I take you seriously now?

Every thing I listed earlier is part of the growing dysfunction. If you think the Dem party hasn't heavily contributed to our current political shithole over the last few decades, then I'd just suggest that people who are the problem can’t see the problem. Yep, the GOP is worse... but if you think I'm going to support a lousy party because the opposition is worse, well, I'm not. I demand better.

You can pretend to be some hyper-independent, non-partisan, politically enlightened intellectual if you want. You might even fool high-schoolers or s0meIdi0ts, but most of us can think critically here, and you're an easy read.

You want to point out how broken our two-party system is and has been, but you want to place blame equally on all sides, and that just isn't logical or rational, and so neither are you.

 

[fskimospy]

Oh, times have changed. How enlightening.

Yes, I’ve asked him before and he hasn’t answered but I would like to know at a minimum:

1) what has changed
2) why getting rid of the two party system would fix it
3) how he proposes doing that

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Tell that to a Republican... I have no use for political tribes. Pretty sure the last time I posted here was 2016 during the GOP primary debate, and I made my thoughts about Trump pretty clear.

If you disagree with the tribe, you're presumed guilty until proven innocent. I've stated multiple times that I voted Democrat last 2 election cycles. They immediately ignore that tiny tidbit and resume their tribal monkey tactics - with post after post indicating that I supported Trump.

 

[Pohemi]

If you disagree with the tribe, you're presumed guilty until proven innocent. I've stated multiple times that I voted Democrat last 2 election cycles. They immediately ignore that tiny tidbit and resume their tribal monkey tactics - with post after post indicating that I supported Trump.

Yeah, and you're also a known and proven lying bag of shite, so there's that. Gee, I wonder why nobody buys your claims of who you actually voted for? Hmmm...such a mystery...

Keep screaming at those mirrors, clownshoes.

 

[dank69]

If you disagree with the tribe, you're presumed guilty until proven innocent. I've stated multiple times that I voted Democrat last 2 election cycles. They immediately ignore that tiny tidbit and resume their tribal monkey tactics - with post after post indicating that I supported Trump.

Nobody cares how you voted. What matters here is that you exclusively pump conservative propaganda.

 

[pmv]

Well I think you're an excellent example of a broken product of the system. Instead of creating a fantasy in your mind about things... I can just tell you what I am. Registered Independent for 20 years with libertarian-ish leanings. And I think modern political parties are corrosive and do more harm than good. See, not hard.

What does 'independent' mean, in a system where you have two institutionalised parties that run the gamut from centrist (with a fringe of moderate-leftists like Sanders) to extreme-right? Also, libertarians are the most annoying kind of far-right. Not the most immediately dangerous, true, but certainly the most annoying.

I suppose the mildly-interesting question one could extract from your disengenuous post, is, how did the situation arise that the US came to have such a strongly-embedded and institutionalised two-party system?

 

[dank69]

Both sides:
Beholden to special interests <- citations please (showing how each and every federal Democrat is beholden, who they are each beholden to, etc. and just showing donations isn't enough, you need to show what the donors received in exchange)
Lack of independent thinking <- citations please (keep in mind there are plenty of examples of Democrats infighting/disagreeing on a multitude of topics)
Creating rigged and corrupt policies and election laws that favor them and stifle choice and competition <- citations please
Lack of honesty and integrity <- citations please
Permanent campaign <- citations please
Blank check spending <- citations please
Intrusive/oppressive laws <- citations please
Short term focus <- citations please
Oblivious to negative externalities and unintended consequences <- citations please
... more, and more, and more

They do all of these things at the expense of the people and good government

Post up your proof.

 

[fskimospy]

What does 'independent' mean, in a system where you have two institutionalised parties that run the gamut from centrist (with a fringe of moderate-leftists like Sanders) to extreme-right? Also, libertarians are the most annoying kind of far-right. Not the most immediately dangerous, true, but certainly the most annoying.

In the US 'independent' usually doesn't mean a lot.

Few Americans Who Identify As Independent Are Actually Independent. That’s Really Bad For Politics.

If you’ve ever been in a conversation about politics, you’ve probably heard someone say, “I don’t like either party” or “Politics is just so ugly these days.” T…

fivethirtyeight.com

 

[dank69]

Hahah, yep. When a moderate independent gets lashed, you know the thought-police are kicking their boots high! Toe the line! This is the thoughtful, reasonable left? Yeah... hard pass. And they wonder why people get turned off by this stuff? I think this thread is making my point fairly well...

Democrats are equivalent to conservatives in most other countries. When you self-identify as in the middle of right-wing and far-right-wing, you're an idiot.

 

[sdifox]

Personally I am tired of parties. I want each issue to be voted independently and each representative is independent. For example, a pro life anti gun person can be elected. Reduce number of electoral districts but keep the number of reps. So say you merge five districts, each voter would get five votes, that gives you flexibilty on supporting multiple candidates. That should weed out most whackjobs. Electoral boundary should not be controlled by whoever is in power. Setup proper data driven comission to deal with electoral map.

EC has got to go, the president and VP should just be elected by popular vote.

 

[dank69]

I appreciate trying to get back to the main point. Let me be clear. Trump is human trash and his cultlike followers are nutters. The embarrassing meltdown of the GOP is well deserved. That said, we have a system that's created this... a broken system. And things will not get better if we just continue the toxic dysfunction and polarization. There is no endgame there. I want real change, radical change.

Real change, radical change, will come when the GOP is destroyed. The Democrats will fracture into progressives and sane conservatives. The only other option, which admittedly would be better, would be to change our voting system to instant runoff so that 3rd parties would be viable, but I unfortunately don't see that change happening realistically. Until then, all we can do is destroy the insane GOP.

 

[dank69]

So if your choices are complete lunacy or whatever the other party focus's on do you still feel like you are making choice?

What do you do if for instance you know the democratic candidate you would have to vote for and that person is very corrupt and should not be representing anyone?

Policy matters more. If our choices are between two corrupt candidates, the smart choice is the corrupt candidate that pushes policies that benefit society as opposed to the corrupt candidate that pushes policies that harm society. Hell, it is smarter to vote for a corrupt candidate that pushes policies that benefit society rather than a squeaky clean candidate that pushes policies that harm society.

 

[dank69]

And like I said, won't happen. Instead of talking about fixing problems, the immediate diversion is this presumption that you supported trump, and trump is evil. If you didn't vote for Trump, then you supported a warmonger GWB.

They just go to their tribal corners like monkeys.

Everytime you call people evil deplorables instead of having an ability to have a calm and rational conversation, you're just throwing gasoline on the fire and will continue our win/lose switch off of politics.

This is your daily reminder that your political opinion is worthless.

 

[brycejones]

Policy matters more. If our choices are between two corrupt candidates, the smart choice is the corrupt candidate that pushes policies that benefit society as opposed to the corrupt candidate that pushes policies that harm society. Hell, it is smarter to vote for a corrupt candidate that pushes policies that benefit society rather than a squeaky clean candidate that pushes policies that harm society.

Nixon V Trump....

Nixon all day long.

 

[dank69]

Nixon V Trump....

Nixon all day long.

I prefer incompetent corruption to competent corruption if those are my only 2 choices. I think Nixon today with the backing of Fox would have successfully and completely destroyed democracy.

 

[soundforbjt]

Want to fix the problem but it will take a long time, bring back the Fairness Doctrine. Fake news is what got us here.

 

[Jhhnn]

Oh lord, the Republican Party attempted to end the republic? How can I take you seriously now?

Every thing I listed earlier is part of the growing dysfunction. If you think the Dem party hasn't heavily contributed to our current political shithole over the last few decades, then I'd just suggest that people who are the problem can’t see the problem. Yep, the GOP is worse... but if you think I'm going to support a lousy party because the opposition is worse, well, I'm not. I demand better.

For those of you who are pleased with a party and/or its candidate, there is not much for me to say. Congrats. I am not arguing petty politics, and if people like their candidate, then good for them. If you like Biden and you like half of Congress... whatever (but wow). I am reaching out to the non-partisans that realize our horrible state of politics in general is the result of a crooked two party system (and all those things on my list) that has created polarized gridlock and endless conflict that drags down our economy, our discourse, and our spirits. We understand that being forced into 2 increasingly shitty choices is tearing this country apart. The Dem Party cannot fix the toxic dysfunction and make things better. It'll be people like me or it'll be collapse.

Ugh. Making the perfect the enemy of the good is is how Progressives justified staying home in 2016.

 

[HomerJS]

If you disagree with the tribe, you're presumed guilty until proven innocent. I've stated multiple times that I voted Democrat last 2 election cycles. They immediately ignore that tiny tidbit and resume their tribal monkey tactics - with post after post indicating that I supported Trump.

The earth is round. I disagree with you. You don't get your own set of facts.

See how that works, Skippy? Until we can agree on a standard of truth the answer to the OP will always be no

 

[fskimospy]

Ugh. Making the perfect the enemy of the good is is how Progressives justified staying home in 2016.

They did the same thing in 2000! We had the Iraq War and (potentially) 9/11 because people thought Gore wasn't any better than Bush, or at least not enough better to matter.

 

[mect]

While I certainly think that there are ways a government could be set up to make multi party systems more feasible, and while I think many other governments are superior to ours, I don't think this is the root cause of our current issues. The root cause of our issues is the republicans successfully convincing people that both sides are the problem, which allows the to continue to survive as an extremist party, enacting legislation to disenfrachise voters and gerrymander their way to allowing them to obtain majorities with less and less support from Americans.

 

[fskimospy]

While I certainly think that there are ways a government could be set up to make multi party systems more feasible, and while I think many other governments are superior to ours, I don't think this is the root cause of our current issues. The root cause of our issues is the republicans successfully convincing people that both sides are the problem, which allows the to continue to survive as an extremist party, enacting legislation to disenfrachise voters and gerrymander their way to allowing them to obtain majorities with less and less support from Americans.

It is entirely possible that in the 2024 elections Republicans will secure total control of the federal government despite getting millions fewer votes than their opponents for the Presidency, the House, and the Senate.

This is in fact a far larger problem for American democracy than the Democrats being mean to the OP or whatever it is that he doesn't like about them (he refuses to get into any specifics).

 

[nOOky]

I'm not sure the two party system is the problem. The problem is that it's an us versus them scenario. Rich versus poor, haves versus have nots, those in power versus those not in power. We have cleverly over time been pitted against each other, and guess who benefits? The government of the U.S. should exist for the benefit of it's entire populace, and to promote fairness and equality among it's citizens.

We have people so cleverly trained that they argue for those very issues that are harming them such as reduced taxes for the rich or a mediocre minimum wage. We are kept arguing over abortion or systematic racism while hands are reaching into our wallets and removing as much of our income as possible to distribute to the ruling class without us even realizing it.

Every two years we have a chance to use the power of the people to completely change the ruling party, yet we never give them enough time or power to do so because we think we need "checks and balances". This is really all about money, it's the root of every decision and issue that haunts us. Every political motivation behind the scenes is a grab for more money, or more power to try and extract more money.