Can someone briefly explain the Palastine-Israel conflict to me?

[Olikan]

Borders are defined by the ability of the inhabitants to defend them. I never understood how people view this problem through a moral lens. The question is not who has the greater right to the land but who has the greater will to seize it.

so, if someone go to your house, point a gun and tell you "leave" is okay?

where do you live again?

 

[Screech]

I like it when a group of people living on stolen land criticize other people for living on stolen land.

(pro tip: if you are living in america and not native american, this probably applies to you.)

 

[Nebor]

At the risk of smeeking, it's not the Palestine-Israel conflict, it's the Jews versus the Muslims conflict.

The Muslims want to kill all the Jews. The Jews want to live.

-John

Pretty much this. Islam has no room for those who won't submit. You can either submit to their god and be a muslim, or you can submit to the muslims and be a dhimmi (second class citizen, open to abuse and heavy taxation.) Though dhimmis have frequently been massacred when they weren't seen as vital to the survival of a muslim civilization.

The muslims bitch and cry about human rights when they're a weak minority, but as soon as they think they have the power to take over, they cast aside all rules and treaties (Mohammed did this repeatedly) and attack savagely, leaving a brutal religious regime in their wake.

There can be no peace between muslims and non-muslims, Islam doesn't allow for it.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Jews and hebrew are not the same . Jews are religion . Hebrew are a people . Jews do not need a state . NO religious governments should exist in the world . Religious tolerance is what the world needs. Nebor post above is whats wrong with the world . Sure there are extremist but the picture he paints of Islam is a lie.

 

[JEDI]

At the risk of smeeking, it's not the Palestine-Israel conflict, it's the Jews versus the Muslims conflict.

The Muslims want to kill all the Jews. The Jews want to live.

-John

and since the jews have F15 Strike Eagles + other advanced tech, i'm surprised they havent wiped them out for self survival... like a final solution of their own.

or at least create a DMZ zone around isreal.. kinda like a moat w/the F15s as the alligators

 

[Circlenaut]

so, if someone go to your house, point a gun and tell you "leave" is okay?

where do you live again?

Individuals trust their governments to protect them but whose in charge of protecting governments from aggressors? On the nation to nation level it's power that's might. And power comes in many forms.

 

[davmat787]

I've got an exam on monday so I didn't have the patience to read massively long documents. Without trying to offend anyone, this is what five minutes of Googling gave me:

Lots of people were living in the Palastine area (Muslims?), then the Jews came into the area and tried to claim it as their land in the name of Israel. Palastine fights back. Israel fights back. Rinse and repeat?

My first impression is this is like how the Americans came in and took over (what became) the USA, only in this case the Indians (people of Palastine) have managed to fight back.

I suppose this makes Israel look bad, and I suppose they have a different view.

I'm interested in learning more. I've probably been ignorant of this issue for far too long.

Don't just stop there, I find the era of the crusades where the Knights Templar and Saladin are going at it to be very interesting. Even though it was long ago, it does add perspective to the modern fighting.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Again is Egyptian/Jordanian control of Gaza/WB so important to the central issue of the Jewish colonization of Palestinian lands? Does 2 wrongs make a right?

The 1947 UN partition was morally wrong and was pushed thru by the big 5 including the Russians who thought they could have a benign ally in the Israeli socialist state in the middle east, so the Palestinians cannot be faulted for fighting. So your "entrusted to oversee" quote is nonsense.

Israel will not release control of occupied territories because she gets valuable water and land for the Israeli economy. The non stop building of settlements proves that Israel has no interest in peace.

1) Israel withdrew from Gaza hoping to that the exchange of land for peace was actually real. Consider it to be a test of the Palestinians sincerity.
Keep the peace; and more land will be released. As has been shown; it was meaningless.
2) Now Until the Palestinians show that they are willing for peace; Israel will use the land that they control as they desire. People may slam them; but the land is not owned by any entity as a country.


The Soviets did the same; so have the Chinese. there are protests about those, but no country steps up to the plate and says no.

No country stepped up to the plate and told Egypt or Jordan to get out of the area when those two had control and used those resources for their own benefit.

Simple fact is that Israel is not going to release control until she has iron clad assurances that she will not be attacked by the Palestinians at all from anywhere. The West Bank has tied themselves to Gaza, so they must also accepts political repercussion of the actions within Gaza.

Should Gaza "give in" to Israel; then Hamas will lose political power within the Palestinian community. The destruction of Gaza and occupation of the West Bank is a price they are willing to pay in order to stay in contention.

 

[EagleKeeper]

and since the jews have F15 Strike Eagles + other advanced tech, i'm surprised they havent wiped them out for self survival... like a final solution of their own.

or at least create a DMZ zone around isreal.. kinda like a moat w/the F15s as the alligators

There is a DMZ; however, the Palestinians and others choose to to lob missiles over it.

Israel has been trying to avoid exterminating the Palestinians.

They have tried to eliminate the militants but loose the PR war every time they are winning the physical war.
And some bleeding hearts believe the loser when they state that they "mea culpa" and promise to never do such again.

So Israel stops the military sweep up. Rinse and repeat.
The Palestinians in Gaza do not want peace. the West Bank is questionable.
The Hezbollah group does not want peace.

So, no peace for Israel; no sovereignty for the Palestinians. It is that simple. No matter what they state. It is a situation they brought upon themselves and perpetuate.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Don't just stop there, I find the era of the crusades where the Knights Templar and Saladin are going at it to be very interesting. Even though it was long ago, it does add perspective to the modern fighting.

This was big . Bigger than the world has been told . What did the templers find?

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

1. The area was controlled by the British, much like India, South Africa, and Canada were at one time. Arabs were the people living on that land.
2. The state of Israel was created, and control was handed over to the Jews. Many Arabs were kicked off the land.
3. Surrounding Arab countries attacked Israel so Arabs could go back to their homes.
4. Israel and its allies won that war and all of the following wars.
5. Arab countries do not officially recognize Israel as a country because it's basically a piece of land that was stolen, similar to how Germans controlled the French territory of Alsace-Lorraine between the Franco-Prussian war and WW1.
6. In response to Arabs not recognizing Israel as a state, Israel and the US refuse to allow the creation of Palestine, a new Arab state.

Think of it like if China occupied California, and they changed the name of California to Chinrael. The Californians living in California would be kick out, and they would move to the nearby states like Nevada. A bunch of Chinese would move to Chinrael, and the UN would accept Chinrael as a new country. The surrounding states of Nevada and New Mexico would attack Chinrael to kick the Chinese out, but Chinrael successfully defends the land because they are backed by the huge army of China. Since military action failed, the ejected Californians would resort to terrorism and doing things like suicide-bombing buses in Chinrael. In retaliation to the Californian suicide bombers, Chinrael would launch military retaliation attacks against settlements of Californians living along the Nevada-California border.

The obvious solution to the problem of Chinrael would be to abolish the state and have the Chinese go back to China, but anyone speaking out against Chinrael is called a racist.

Pretty accurate, but you forget the part the English played. The Muslims and Jews lived in harmony there for centuries, but near the end of WW II the British (and a lot of allied countries) decided they had to find a solution for the 'Jewish problem', and decided that giving them their own state would solve the problem. So from one day to another the British told the Jewish population that the country was theirs, and said that all Jews could come join them and could take whatever land they wanted that wasn't yet Jewish. Which basically started the whole Jewish-Palestinian war there.

The current Israeli government is as much a terrorist organisation as Hamas is, neither of them want peace. But thanks to all the military backing from the US the Israeli government can pretty much do whatever they want, and they are currently using the 'settlers' to steal more and more land from the Palestinians. Even if the Palestinians could get rid of Hamas and could get a moderate government that wouldn't make any difference unless the Israelis also get a moderate government in place (and if Jewish extremists don't murder the moderate leader again).

 

[dmcowen674]

The current Israeli government is as much a terrorist organisation as Hamas is, neither of them want peace.

But thanks to all the military backing from the US the Israeli government can pretty much do whatever they want, and they are currently using the 'settlers' to steal more and more land from the Palestinians.

What land is Israel stealing now?

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

What land is Israel stealing now?

They're still allowing the settlers to occupy more land on the Westbank while protecting them by backing them with military force. And they're still kicking Palestinians out of their houses in East-Jerusalem to give their property to Jewish immigrants based on bogus claims ('My ancestor owned that property 3000 years ago, so it's mine!').

 

[EagleKeeper]

Seems like the exact plans that the Palestinians had back on '48. Drive the Jews off the land that they owned and improved. Replace the Jews with Palestinians.

Problem was the Jews decided they wanted to stay and fight.

Now the shoe is on the other foot.
Where are the mighty Arab armies to assert their right to enslave the Palestinians?

 

[pauldun170]

Europe hated Jews and wanted to get rid of them so England said
"Have this shit stain of land in africa...now go away"
Jewish people looked at england and said rar ya foogin mahd? (old european yiddish accent)
Some Jewish dude knew of some friends with a nice place in Palestine so he started telling all his friends to come down in visit.
After a short period of general friendliness...they started convincing arabs to sell off land and the Jewish settlements started getting bigger and bigger. Easy to do when you have a tribal cultural much different than yours.
Eventually they just started scare\con some locals away. Locals started getting really pissed and they duked it out slappy style.
England sees all this ands say "Oh pardon me dear fellow but that is not Africa. We said go to the shit stain in Africa...but whatever. as long as we don't have to deal with you."
Germany felt the same way but they let mental patients run the show and they decided to go all "Jigsaw" on jews.

Back in Palestine everyone walked around giving each other dirty looks.

WWII happened. Hillarity ensued

When WWII was over, Jews in europe said screw you guys...I'm visiting my parents down in florida....I mean Palestine.
Unfortunately for all the non Jewish residents already living in Palestine, a bunch of Jewish guys who just happened to have been experienced combat vets were able to bitch slap all the unorganized poorly trained folks who were really tired of Europeans coming down to their neighborhood and telling them what to do.
they decided to get all religious and shit and start saying it fucking biblical...er torah-cal...that they are there and they have a mandate from god and crap.

People in that region REALLY love saying that god is cool with whatever they do.

anyway.
All those arab guys pissed off that white people are once again invading their personal space try a few more times to kick them out. Israel having completed Call of duty on expert easily fucked them all up and in the process started getting a little bit more land.

Unfortunately...they are in to that purity of jewish state thing so inclusion of conquered peoples into society wasn't exactly pursued and between religious nuts and bureaucrats they haven't a clue on what the hell to do. Some say just take what god intended us to have while other say "Not now...I'm watching Family guy"


In summary
Its a big fight over dirt. Brown people hate it when Europeans walk in like they own the place. Israelis have holocaust card that gets them free cookies where ever they go. Evangelicals in the US have some stick up their ass about Jerusalem and the Chinese armageddon prophecy non-sense.
Everyone should read art of war
Israeli's are lying
Palestinians are lying
cheesecake is delicious

 

[pauldun170]

The Palestinians in Gaza do not want peace. the West Bank is questionable.
The Hezbollah group does not want peace.

So, no peace for Israel; no sovereignty for the Palestinians. It is that simple. No matter what they state. It is a situation they brought upon themselves and perpetuate.

Israel doesn't want peace either. when I say "Israel", I don't mean the people. I mean the ruling factions.
From Israel's standpoint, peaceful co-existence with Palestinians would be a bad thing.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Israel doesn't want peace either. when I say "Israel", I don't mean the people. I mean the ruling factions.
From Israel's standpoint, peaceful co-existence with Palestinians would be a bad thing.

As long as the people are shooting at Israel; it becomes political suicide to proclaim peace relations.

If the truces were honored; then progress could be made.
but Gaza will not tolerate any truce and the West Bank can not afford to alienate Gaza.

 

[pauldun170]

As long as the people are shooting at Israel; it becomes political suicide to proclaim peace relations.

If the truces were honored; then progress could be made.
but Gaza will not tolerate any truce and the West Bank can not afford to alienate Gaza.

what Progress?
Progress to what?

 

[JEDIYoda]

what Progress?
Progress to what?

all parties have to agree to Peace......one cannot do it alone....

 

[irishScott]

so the jewish gods are more powerful?

or the Muslim God is fed up with his dysfunctional children and is trying to send a message.

 

[feralkid]

1.

Think of it like if China occupied California, and they changed the name of California to Chinrael. The Californians living in California would be kick out, and they would move to the nearby states like Nevada. A bunch of Chinese would move to Chinrael, and the UN would accept Chinrael as a new country. The surrounding states of Nevada and New Mexico would attack Chinrael to kick the Chinese out, but Chinrael successfully defends the land because they are backed by the huge army of China. Since military action failed, the ejected Californians would resort to terrorism and doing things like suicide-bombing buses in Chinrael. In retaliation to the Californian suicide bombers, Chinrael would launch military retaliation attacks against settlements of Californians living along the Nevada-California border.

The obvious solution to the problem of Chinrael would be to abolish the state and have the Chinese go back to China, but anyone speaking out against Chinrael is called a racist.

You'd have a better analogy if you had said the Chinese had lived in California 2000 years ago.

Also, which country do the Jews go back to?

 

[feralkid]

Europe hated Jews and wanted to get rid of them so England said
"Have this shit stain of land in africa...now go away"

Wrong continent, dude...

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

As long as the people are shooting at Israel; it becomes political suicide to proclaim peace relations.

If the truces were honored; then progress could be made.
but Gaza will not tolerate any truce and the West Bank can not afford to alienate Gaza.

My thought is Hamas' primary reason for attacking Israel is as a means to the end of consolidating power by undermining Abbas. If it meant Palestinian deaths, it's for the greater good. I think they did not correctly anticipate Israeli response. Not only did they suffer significant damage themselves, but decided to attack Tel Aviv. Bibi gets reelected, whig Hamas might like, but it looks like they might get a real war and their asses kicked, resulting in the opposite of what they wanted.

 

[EagleKeeper]

My thought is Hamas' primary reason for attacking Israel is as a means to the end of consolidating power by undermining Abbas. If it meant Palestinian deaths, it's for the greater good. I think they did not correctly anticipate Israeli response. Not only did they suffer significant damage themselves, but decided to attack Tel Aviv. Bibi gets reelected, whig Hamas might like, but it looks like they might get a real war and their asses kicked, resulting in the opposite of what they wanted.

Hamas correctly predicted what Israel would do. Nothing.
they also forgot that eventually, Israel will retaliate and it will be for a minor transgression that previously went unanswered.

The more Israel ignores Hamas, the braver Hamas gets.
Until it backfires.

Hezbollah is the same.

Abbas also has the same scenario. He tried to bluff and his bluff was called.
He folded.

The current opponents have not learned the lessons that the Arab nations of the past 50 years did. Arafat learned that lesson. Leave Israel alone and lick your prideful wounds.
Piss off Israel and eventually she will slap you silly.

 

[Lemon law]

As I ask instead, why is this forum so bogged down in the mistakes of the past? Two wrong don't add up to a single right. Where does this assumption come from that if we later add N subsequent wrongs to the Israel side and M wrongs to the Arab Palestinian side that somehow two+N+M wrongs will add up to any clear answer regarding which side is right?

In MHO, we need to learn that we can't change the rotten past because we can only change the future for the better or worse.

So starting with that statement, the UN action in creating the State of Israel in 1948 may have been the right thing to do. And if we accept that premise, the rest of the Arab States who then attacked the newly minted Israeli State were in the wrong.

After than things get totally confusing. But thanks to US and EU support, the pre 1948 borders of Israel were immune from rational Arab or Palestinian attack. Later Israeli seized land it can never own in thee 167&73 wars. And have military occupied land it can never own while it keeps placing more over 500,000 Israeli settlers while Israeli refuses to agree to a settlement freeze.

As somehow Israel gambles that the more illegal settlements they place in East Jerusalem, Gaza, and the West Bank in the hopes they will get more in a final settlement.

As for the Palestinian people in the occupied territories, they are placed in subhuman misery.

But still, sooner or later Israel must give up its 44 year military occupation, and meanwhile tries to control a 1000 KM. swath of the mid-east. So far Israel has yet not screwed up the oil supply of the Persian gulf, but now, but Israeli leaders like Netanyuhu are crazy enough to try it.

And then Israeli will lose all international support.