Can someone explain why kneeling during the National Anthem is disrespectful to the troops?

[Thump553]

I'm still lost how knelling can even be comprehended as a sign of disrespect. To me it is nearly ultimate act of subjugation (surpassed only by lying prone on your stomach). the real disrespect to the flag was when righties flew it inverted to protest Obama, together with the religious devotion attached to the Confederate flag, the very symbol of military force which sought to destroy the United States.

This entire tempest in a teapot was launched (and maintained) by Trump to divert attention from the half hearted inadequate federal response to US citizens in distress in the US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico. Trump's gutting of the federal agencies doesn't look so appealing when they are needed. No further attention should be paid to it.

 

[Atreus21]

It's disrespectful to what the country stands for.

 

[feralkid]

This point of view bothers me. Just because you make $20M a year doesn't mean you should turn a blind eye to things going on in the world, whether they affect you or not.

Apparently he believes that at a certain income bracket, one loses their freedom of speech.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

It's disrespectful to what the country stands for.

A country doesn't stand for anything, it's an inanimate object at best, and lines drawn on a map for the most part. People stand for things, and you're showing that you stand more for patriotism than human rights.

 

[feralkid]

It's disrespectful to what the country stands for.

Gee, I thought one thing America stood for was Freedom of expression..

 

[IronWing]

I guess I don't really understand this debate. What is the correlation between the national anthem and our troops? I'm asking seriously.

This is really basic stuff. When football players kneel they place their knees on the ground and you know what else has knees on the ground? That's right, cypress trees and cypress trees are named for the Isle of Cypress which was ruled by the Ottoman Empire from which we get the term ottoman. Now the most famous ottoman in history was the one Dick Van D yke tripped over during the opening credits of his beloved show and Dick Van D yke was a WWII veteran so every time these ballplayers "take a knee" they are literally making fun of a beloved WWII veteran. Shame on these people.

Edit: The forum software will not allow one to post the word D_y_k_e. Purch hates veterans.

 

[VRAMdemon]

Trump is the most un-patriotic man to ever reside in the White House. He dodged the draft. He repeatedly said our "military is a disaster" on the campaign trail. Insults our military leaders by saying he's smarter than our Generals. He constantly chided the military for their strategy in Iraq. He insulted the Mother and Father of a fallen gold star military hero. He famously claimed John McCain wasn't a hero because he was captured.

And Trump supporters clapped and cheered him on every time he insulted the military.

And now Trump and his supporters are going to pretend kneeling in support of racial justice is an insult to the men and women in uniform?

Give me a break!

 

[VRAMdemon]

It's disrespectful to what the country stands for.

Let me know when Trump respects what the country stands for

 

[BigDH01]

You've presented a compelling argument, and I respect everything you wrote. I also respectfully disagree on a few points.

One, respect is absolutely an American value, especially respect towards those who serve. Memorial Day. Veteran's Day. The Wounded Warrior Project. The parade in Manhattan after the Gulf War, one of my most vivid memories as a kid growing up in NY. I don't support forced or jingoistic respect. Most veterans I know don't expect recognition. But respect is absolutely an American value, perhaps not a core value enshrined in our Constitution, but a value nonetheless.

Memorial Day is a post-civil war holiday. Veteran's Day is a post-WW1 holiday. WWP is formed 2003. The Bill of Rights was written in 1789. Respect is ancillary to the principles upon which the nation was founded. Nationalism took a back seat to principles as well, or this country wouldn't exist. There is no special group in this country that is free from criticism and no group that deserves respect at the cost of our civil liberties. This military primacy, or militarism, and nationalism is a more recent phenomenon. We didn't have this as a national anthem until 1931 and the pledge of allegiance was made official in 1942. For most of our history, we did just fine without always having to show deference to nationalism and militarism.

My biggest concern, after reviewing social media, is that people feel that the flag represents the military and not vice versa. Military primacy is not healthy for a democracy. Military participation should be seen as an unfortunate necessity required to preserve our principles, not that highest duty one can serve for the nation state.

This isn't to belittle anyone for serving, it's to say that the flag and the country belongs to all of us. We can't silence people because it might offend some "protected" class. I feel this way about kneeling, and I feel this way about the Berkeley protests (only Trump never called the speakers there a "son of a bitch").

Two, as a veteran I have NO PROBLEM with people taking knees or protesting systemic racism in this country. I also have NO PROBLEM with people voicing an opinion that doing so is disrespectful to veterans in certain venues. Even veterans are fairly split on this topic. Anyone using the broader race conversation to silence the latter doesn't understand our nation's values and is similarly part of the problem.

I don't think people have a problem with you saying it's disrespectful in as much as you have the right to voice that opinion. I disagree with that view as the flag belongs to those players as much as it belongs to soldiers or anyone else. I'm scared by the fact that so many people think standing should be a requirement as forcing citizens to submit to militarism or nationalism is a very dangerous path.

Third, as a nation, we've been talking about this for as long as I've been alive. The Rodney King verdict and subsequent riots were also a significant event of my childhood. What's meaningfully changed since then?

Less than probably should've.

And I am sorry, but I think it is reasonable to question anyone making $20M a year complaining about systemic oppression.

Why? Yes, these people have "made it" in the sense that they get paid a lot of money to do what they do but it doesn't mean that they haven't overcome barriers that authorities unfairly imposed upon them. It also doesn't mean that they aren't standing for oppressed people who don't make millions of dollars and who don't have a national stage upon which to speak. Should wealthy Americans not have spoken out against slavery? Should they have remained silent during the civil rights movement?

So what will fix it. As a veteran, I am sure you respect the need for training. The solution is fairly clear to me:

1. The demilitarization of our police

2. Investments in non lethal tactical weapons

3. Decriminalization of non violent drug use

4. Community outreach

5. Extensive training in how to de-escalate situations. Almost every police shooting is due to their losing control of the situation.

6. Recruiting so that the police are reflective of the communities they serve

7. Gun buy back programs to get weapons off the streets

8. Investment in mentoring programs so that kids get off the streets and have positive role models. Kind of along the lines of what Snoop Dogg has done in Long Beach with the SYFL.

9. Integrated busing so that kids from low income neighborhoods get access to the almost private school quality resources in affluent neighborhoods.

10. Increased low income housing and paths to ownership in good communities

Anything that demilitarizes the police is good imo, and I agree with ending the ineffective war on drugs. I actually agree with all of your recommendations.

Feel free to add to the list. Having spent the majority of my life in blue states, what I have found is that white people love to talk about race, but Nimbyism kicks in hardcore once its time to do something about it.

I have found that as well, and it's a shame.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Military primacy is not healthy for a democracy. Military participation should be seen as an unfortunate necessity required to preserve our principles, not that highest duty one can serve for the nation state.

Thank you for pointing this out, it's a very important notion to keep in mind. We can revere those who sacrifice their lives for our freedom without glorifying the act of warfare, much less desire it to further the militarism of the US. Interestingly, the SO and I have been watching through some Rome documentaries and one of the core elements toward the end of the imperialism stage of Rome was over-militarization. There was an expectation for every emperor to serve in the military, campaign in the military, be the military. With military conquest becoming such a central role in the life of the empire, when it fell apart, Rome fell with it.

The important takeaway is that we are not defined by our military, or any one facet of our principals, and nobody should be silenced or fought for expressing discontent toward a single facet of those principals. And we should *definitely* never attribute a single facet (militarism) across every conceivable symbol that exists within the country (flag, song, leadership).

 

[HomerJS]

For all you "they are disrespecting the flag" people. Rules for respecting the flag are spelled out in US code. Take a look and tell me which one those black guys violated. I can tell you which ones conservatives violate pretty regularly.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8

 

[dainthomas]

Let me know when Trump respects what the country stands for

Russia or the US?

 

[UglyCasanova]

Protesting is about as American as you can get and goes hand in hand with free speech. This was on the clock and done while representing their respective companies so there is always the risk of consequences there. It’s up to the players if they want to make that choice.

I think ideological worship of a flag just like having kids recite the pledge of allegiance misses the point of the greatness of America. I also think there are many that jump on board the protest bandwagon without really giving much thought into what they are doing.

The kneeling and such has turned a nonpolitical event into a political one with the good and bad that goes along with it. The great thing about America is that you don’t get arrested for doing such.

 

[JimKiler]

Russia or the US?

that is cold! True but cold!

 

[JimKiler]

It's disrespectful to what the country stands for.

What does the country stand for? Please elaborate.

 

[fskimospy]

It's disrespectful to what the country stands for.

Not to pile on you here but the ability to protest things you see as unjust seems to be EXACTLY what the US stands for.

If anything, Trump's calls to have these people fired is about the most un-American thing I can possibly think of. He's a total disgrace to the country.

 

[woolfe9998]

Yeah, anyone remember when Bill O'Reilly asked Trump about Putin's regime murdering journalists and dissidents, and Trump's reply was "we're not so innocent." That false equivalency was true disrespect for America, not kneeling during a song. Trump and Putin are like minded in this regard: both intensely "nationalistic" but also anti-democratic. The idea that the the national anthem or the flag are more important than free speech is right in line with the Putin mindset.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Not to pile on you here but the ability to protest things you see as unjust seems to be EXACTLY what the US stands for.

If anything, Trump's calls to have these people fired is about the most un-American thing I can possibly think of. He's a total disgrace to the country.

Do you support those who protest the removal of confederate statues? You may but many on here have called for them to be met with violence.

 

[fskimospy]

Do you support those who protest the removal of confederate statues? You may but many on here have called for them to be met with violence.

I don't believe in anyone responding with violence to any protest. I fully welcome anyone's right to protest the removal of confederate statues even though doing so makes them either woefully ignorant or immoral people.

 

[mect]

Not to pile on you here but the ability to protest things you see as unjust seems to be EXACTLY what the US stands for.

If anything, Trump's calls to have these people fired is about the most un-American thing I can possibly think of. He's a total disgrace to the country.

While I agree that the right to protest is a core American value, at the same time the manner of protest can still be simultaneously disrespectful to other values. For example, if the players were shouting "fuck America" throughout the national anthem, I would agree that that is disrespectful. I can even understand the original method Kaepernick used of sitting during the anthem as being viewed as disrespectful, if only mildly so. I just don't understand how the hell these people can find kneeling to be disrespectful. Kneeling is typically viewed as even more respectful than standing. When people pray, they kneel out of respect. What this tells me is that the true issue people have here is with the message, but if they complain about the message, then it becomes hard for them to deny that they are racist. However, because the means of showing respect isn't traditional, they target that, and claim that in this single instance, kneeling is disrespectful in order to oppose the message without appearing racist.

 

[Thebobo]

.

It's disrespectful to what the country stands for.

The country stands for being able to kneel.

 

[Thebobo]

So by not standing will jesus not help them in the game?

 

[IronWing]

So by not standing will jesus not help them in the game?

He gonna spike the ball in the end zone?

 

[vi edit]

While I agree that the right to protest is a core American value, at the same time the manner of protest can still be simultaneously disrespectful to other values. For example, if the players were shouting "fuck America" throughout the national anthem, I would agree that that is disrespectful. I can even understand the original method Kaepernick used of sitting during the anthem as being viewed as disrespectful, if only mildly so. I just don't understand how the hell these people can find kneeling to be disrespectful. Kneeling is typically viewed as even more respectful than standing. When people pray, they kneel out of respect. What this tells me is that the true issue people have here is with the message, but if they complain about the message, then it becomes hard for them to deny that they are racist. However, because the means of showing respect isn't traditional, they target that, and claim that in this single instance, kneeling is disrespectful in order to oppose the message without appearing racist.

You can't try and find logic in a position that never had a basis in any logic to begin with. Most of the people I see on Facebook and otherwise throwing a fit over this are the same ones linking and tagging others to Fox News threads. These people have been fed conservative propaganda for years and flinch and convulse at anything outside of the narrow world view Fox feeds to them. It's not logical. It's pathological.

 

[soulcougher73]

It's disrespectful to what the country stands for.

A country that stands for freedom would allow people the freedom to protest how they want and when they want.

You sounds like you'd do better in a dictatorship or a theocracy where you get to tell people what to do and how to live their lives.