Can we live without oil?

[calahan]

So doing some research lately and it seems that 10 percent of the United states is driving on Ethanol, and almost 60% of Brazil is as well.

Seems like everyone is growing into this fad as of late, and Ethanol might become the clear solution to the world's future oil problem.

Apparently the United Sates is growing more corn than any other country in the world. Since corn is used to create ethanol this seems like the only logical reason for the need of all this corn.

What are some thoughts on this subject? Can we really survive without oil, and what other option will we have for fuel sources once we run out?

 

[JulesMaximus]

I hate ethanol.

Google Ducati fuel tanks and you'll understand why.

By the way, doesn't it take the same amount of energy to create ethanol as you get out of it? If this is still the case I don't understand why we make this shit at all.

 

[jlee]

Oil has far more uses than just gasoline - we'd have a serious problem.

 

[jlee]

I hate ethanol.

Google Ducati fuel tanks and you'll understand why.

By the way, doesn't it take the same amount of energy to create ethanol as you get out of it? If this is still the case I don't understand why we make this shit at all.

I love ethanol.

Google "turbo e85" and you'll understand why.

 

[Railgun]

Blame Ducati.

 

[KentState]

I love ethanol.

Google "turbo e85" and you'll understand why.

Love it too. Google my car


To answer the OP. If we divert all of our corn to making fuel, corn derived foods will go through the roof. I would rather we deplete the oil supplies while working on a electric solution.

 

[Nessism]

I've got a couple older motorcycles in the garage and this modern ethanol laced gasoline goes bad much faster than pure gas. I'm (unfortunately) getting pretty good at pulling the carbs and clearing the pilot jets but frankly, I'm getting sick of it. First thing after getting it running (yesterday) I drove straight to the auto parts store and bought some STA-BIL 360 (the newfangled formula). I'm going to start using this stuff in every tank.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Driving is a minor use of oil. Plastic and other polymers use the majority oil. We absolutely CAN NOT live without it.

 

[Torn Mind]

We love our PVC, ABS, and all those medical plasticy thingamabobs very much. Yes, yes we'd be dead, or at least back to a simpler civilization.

 

[MongGrel]

Ethanol has been a thing since the 70's at least, in gas.

It is not a new fad.

 

[uclaLabrat]

Petroleum is the starting feedstock for the polymer and fine chemical industry. Everything from gas to pharmaceuticals would be impacted. Not to say it couldn't be derived from other sources, but the costs would skyrocket.

 

[OVerLoRDI]

Ethanol doesn't exactly have a great return on energy. For every unit of energy you put into making corn ethanol, you get somewhere slightly above breakeven or worse (depending on who you ask and whether or not they are paid for buy the corn lobby)

 

[MongGrel]

Ethanol doesn't exactly have a great return on energy. For every unit of energy you put into making corn ethanol, you get somewhere slightly above breakeven or worse (depending on who you ask and whether or not they are paid for buy the corn lobby)

Ethanol had been a huge government kick back for some farmers over time of course.

Rotate that with soybeans if you have the land and equipment and your probably not going to do too badly.

I'm not a farmer myself, but grew up around many, and yes they have been squeezed a lot over time themselves from corporations and the government.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Ethanol had been a huge government kick back for some farmers over time of course.

Rotate that with soybeans if you have the land and equipment and your probably not going to do too badly.

I'm not a farmer myself, but grew up around many, and yes they have been squeezed a lot over time themselves from corporations and the government.

Not my problem. End corn subsidies and ethanol production NOW!!!

 

[jlee]

Not my problem. End corn subsidies and ethanol production NOW!!!

as long as you're paying for 100 octane race gas for me, sure. :awe:

 

[GagHalfrunt]

I hate ethanol.

Google Ducati fuel tanks and you'll understand why.

That's a problem with Ducati, not with ethanol.


As for the OP, Can we live without oil? The answer is yes. Completely. Absolutely. No problem. But not now and not any time in the near future. There's nothing oil does that can't be powered by alternate sources. But it requires a shitload of time and money to make the transition and it's difficult to convince people of the benefits of spending all that money now when there's no need to do it now. As long as we have oil we're not going to move away from oil.

That being said, ethanol is most definitely NOT the long term solution. Hydrogen or electric cars are going to win out eventually, we might as well be working in that direction rather than looking to transition to ethanol which is nothing but a stopgap measure at best.

 

[JulesMaximus]

as long as you're paying for 100 octane race gas for me, sure. :awe:

There was no 100 octane race fuel before ethanol?

As for the OP, Can we live without oil? The answer is yes. Completely. Absolutely. No problem. But not now and not any time in the near future. There's nothing oil does that can't be powered by alternate sources. But it requires a shitload of time and money to make the transition and it's difficult to convince people of the benefits of spending all that money now when there's no need to do it now. As long as we have oil we're not going to move away from oil.

That being said, ethanol is most definitely NOT the long term solution. Hydrogen or electric cars are going to win out eventually, we might as well be working in that direction rather than looking to transition to ethanol which is nothing but a stopgap measure at best.

If we put the same amount of energy into producing ethanol as we get out of it then what's the point? Other than keeping farmers happy of course... which I couldn't possibly care less about.

And it's not just a Ducati problem. My hybrid says not to use E85 fuel and there are many problems with marine engines and small engines using ethanol. Then there's the plastic fuel tank issue in motorcycles which also is not limited to Ducati. BMW, Triumph and MV Agusta, to name a few have also had problems with their tanks because of ethanol fuel. I know, nobody gives a shit about motorcycles, boats and lawn equipment though...

 

[GagHalfrunt]

If we put the same amount of energy into producing ethanol as we get out of it then what's the point? Other than keeping farmers happy of course... which I couldn't possibly care less about.

Sure, we don't actually gain any energy out of each batch, but we can make it up in volume.


Hydrogen should win, but electric is almost surely going to win as it's the path of least resistance. Every penny invested in ethanol is completely wasted, it can't possibly be a long term solution.

 

[jlee]

There was no 100 octane race fuel before ethanol?

Sure there was - it just wasn't $2/gallon. E85 gives me performance on par with 100+ octane race fuel at 1/4 the cost (and 10x the availability, to hazard a guess).

If we put the same amount of energy into producing ethanol as we get out of it then what's the point? Other than keeping farmers happy of course... which I couldn't possibly care less about.

And it's not just a Ducati problem. My hybrid says not to use E85 fuel and there are many problems with marine engines and small engines using ethanol. Then there's the plastic fuel tank issue in motorcycles which also is not limited to Ducati. BMW, Triumph and MV Agusta, to name a few have also had problems with their tanks because of ethanol fuel. I know, nobody gives a shit about motorcycles, boats and lawn equipment though...

Any engine without flexfuel capability will say to not use E85 fuel.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Sure there was - it just wasn't $2/gallon. E85 gives me performance on par with 100+ octane race fuel at 1/4 the cost (and 10x the availability, to hazard a guess).

I'm fine with you paying $9/gallon for race fuel.

 

[natto fire]

Sure, we don't actually gain any energy out of each batch, but we can make it up in volume.


Hydrogen should win, but electric is almost surely going to win as it's the path of least resistance. Every penny invested in ethanol is completely wasted, it can't possibly be a long term solution.

The amount of energy transferred via electricity over power lines is so much more than we dump into cars in the form of gasoline, so yeah, electric should win. There is a proven, low cost distribution network already in place. Why take the time to build an infrastructure from scratch with hydrogen, when electrons have a path already established, and incremental upgrades would be much easier.

That said, most are answering this from a fuel perspective, but from a polymer perspective, oil is much more useful.

 

[jlee]

I'm fine with you paying $9/gallon for race fuel.

And I'm fine with you finding non-ethanol fuel for your motorcycle.

 

[JulesMaximus]

And I'm fine with you finding non-ethanol fuel for your motorcycle.

Unpossible.

 

[Ackmed]

Fuck ethanol. Makes one of my cars run like shit.

 

[K7SN]

The answer is already stated - not at this time or for anytime in the foreseeable future. We could make it out of coal; Germany was reduced toward that after we cut off the Romanian Oil Fields at Ploesti but by the end of the war we had almost ground the last of their internal combustion aircraft.

You are aware that E85 is ethanol blended with gasoline; hence your using oil when you use E85 and straight ethanol might power a steam engine.

Again, we can use pig fat for grease but I like my non-metallic keyboard; your plastic taillights and Macadam Roads.