Can't all panel types do 120Hz input?

[Anarchist420]

Isn't the input rate independent of the panel itself and instead dependent on the controller board and receiver?

 

[BrightCandle]

To an extent that is correct. The frame rate is mostly dependent on the monitors controller. But just putting 120hz controller isn't sufficient to make any panel respond well. If the LCDs can't switch fast enough then 120Hz is going to be very blurry, as each frame merges into the next.

Clearly the Korean panel makers have put overclockable controllers into their IPS panels and shown that sometimes you can get the controller at least to perform better, but the panels don't all respond all that well to this.

 

[dqniel]

Have you looked at a 120Hz IPS panel yourself, BrightCandle?

 

[bystander36]

I haven't used one yet, but BrightCandle is right. If it takes nearly as long to change a pixel to the new color as it is displayed, before changing to a new color, the color on a moving object never spends time at the correct displayed color. If you run at 60 FPS, this may not seem like a huge deal, as the frame only changes every other refresh, but as 120 FPS, a moving object is almost always the wrong color and shifting.

 

[dqniel]

I haven't used one yet, but BrightCandle is right. If it takes nearly as long to change a pixel to the new color as it is displayed, before changing to a new color, the color on a moving object never spends time at the correct displayed color. If you run at 60 FPS, this may not seem like a huge deal, as the frame only changes every other refresh, but as 120 FPS, a moving object is almost always the wrong color and shifting.

i've never noticed the issue. i play 120fps capped 120hz in borderlands2. the color looks right, and it looks a LOT smoother than it did at 120fps and 60hz.

 

[nightspydk]

Are you kidding me?
It's dependant on the system. That would be every major part in your setup. If there is a bottleneck anywhere..

It's possible I would estimate the pixels don't cange fast enough cause they do not get input fast enough..

Just a thought.

 

[KingFatty]

So a liquid crystal panel has little crystals suspended in a liquid.

The panel has to flip those crystals around, using electric fields. You could imagine that if the liquid is very thick and syrupy, you won't be able to flip the crystal fast enough, even if you pile on a ton of electric field. Or, you'd need enough electric field that it would damage the crystals.

So even if you swap out the controller for a panel, the panel itself might inherently be unable to support really high frames per second. For example, the panel might rely on the crystal passively aligning one way, and using an active field to align another. So you can't increase the passive part of that.

 

[dqniel]

So a liquid crystal panel has little crystals suspended in a liquid.

The panel has to flip those crystals around, using electric fields. You could imagine that if the liquid is very thick and syrupy, you won't be able to flip the crystal fast enough, even if you pile on a ton of electric field. Or, you'd need enough electric field that it would damage the crystals.

So even if you swap out the controller for a panel, the panel itself might inherently be unable to support really high frames per second. For example, the panel might rely on the crystal passively aligning one way, and using an active field to align another. So you can't increase the passive part of that.

then why does a 120hz ips panel have a noticeable, positive difference in gaming compared to running it at 60hz? i won't pretend to understand how the panel technology works, because i don't. however, i've seen the difference first hand.

 

[cmdrdredd]

then why does a 120hz ips panel have a noticeable, positive difference in gaming compared to running it at 60hz? i won't pretend to understand how the panel technology works, because i don't. however, i've seen the difference first hand.

It is refreshing the image more times per second, so the delay between frames displayed by the monitor is lessened.

 

[bystander36]

then why does a 120hz ips panel have a noticeable, positive difference in gaming compared to running it at 60hz? i won't pretend to understand how the panel technology works, because i don't. however, i've seen the difference first hand.

At 120hz, every frame is changed every 8ms. Good IPS displays generally have a Gray to Gray of about 8ms. So if the action is changing constantly at 120 FPS, it is in a constant state of flux and never shifting completely to the color it is supposed to. This results in ghosting and a bit of a blur effect. This is the negative part of the 120hz IPS.

However, there are still positives. The screen still updates its image twice as often as a 60 Hz display. This reduces latency and gives a bit more responsiveness. When you have v-sync on, if it drops below 60 FPS, it doesn't take you directly to 33ms frames, it goes to 25ms first, so it isn't as disruptive.

 

[nightspydk]

Like I said a few times the panel can communicate with the vga with 120 fps. A 60 hz is locked at that speed. That's it but still like I said, it depends on the rst of the system.

We are not talking abot refresh or anything else.

 

[Black Octagon]

To an extent that is correct. The frame rate is mostly dependent on the monitors controller. But just putting 120hz controller isn't sufficient to make any panel respond well. If the LCDs can't switch fast enough then 120Hz is going to be very blurry, as each frame merges into the next.

Clearly the Korean panel makers have put overclockable controllers into their IPS panels and shown that sometimes you can get the controller at least to perform better, but the panels don't all respond all that well to this.

Let's please try to be a little more precise than this.

1) Not the frame rate. The refresh rate

2) The 'Korean panel makers' did not 'put overclockable controllers into their IPS panels.' 1 MONITOR manufacturer (Witech) had a specific batch (2B) of a specific model (Yamakasi Catleap) whose TCON board happened to support overclocking up to around 120hz. It also just so happened that the DVI pcb and panel in this monitor also supported the additional strain presented by this overclocking. This whole scenario was, by all accounts, a random fluke. A specific LG panel is needed if you want to use this overclockable TCON board. Not just any one will work. However, this specific one does, and the result is awesome (for IPS).

Not sure what you mean when you say that 'the panels don't all respond all that well' to the TCON board being overclocked...

P.S., by the way, please don't take this as a snarky post. I usually find what you post to be interesting, but this particular one lacks sufficient nuance IMHO.

 

[nightspydk]

I think you are right mate, but the standards including respond rate gets mixed up and then I'm lost like many prolly.

 

[bystander36]

My point was mostly that due to the IPS's poor response rate, it doesn't make a great 120hz panel. Perhaps as they get better that will change. That isn't to say that they can't do 120hz, but TN panels are better at 120hz.

Now perhaps they may make 1440p TN panels, or maybe IPS will improve enough to get great response times.

 

[nightspydk]

But you are comparing apples and oranges my friend. The response rate has nothing to do with the refresh on a lcd.

True again I agrees.

 

[Black Octagon]

FFS. Not the 'response rate.' You are talking about 'response TIME' - or even more accurately, 'pixel response time.'

And this 'about 8ms' figure is not relevant. The pixel response time varies from panel to panel. When talking about IPS screens that can be properly overclocked to about 120Hz, we are only talking about the following 2 monitors: The Yamakasi Catleap Extreme 2B, and the Overlord Tempest X270OC. Both use the same LG panel whose rated pixel response time is "≦6ms" (although indeed, probably GTG instead of BTB).

But pixel response time is only half of the story. The other big contribution that monitors make to overall latency is input lag. This too is often worse on IPS screens than it is on TNs. However, again, we are talking about 2 very specific monitors. Both of them have absolute minimal input lag, and this is due to the fact that they only have 1 input (DL-DVI) as opposed to many inputs, they have no scaler, no OSD, nor any other common internal features like overdrive that contribute to input lag on IPS screens.

Sure, these are still IPS monitors and so are not as good in the latency department as a gaming-grade TN from ASUS or BenQ (and certainly not like an old CRT) but they are very, very good for IPS screens. And when you overclock from 60 to 120Hz the difference is incredible. I can honestly say that my Tempest X270OC, when at 120Hz, is every bit as responsive as 120Hz was on my Samsung S27A950D (a 1080p 120Hz TN screen that was very popular despite having higher input lag than the very best 120Hz screens from ASUS and BenQ).

 

[Stuka87]

No, not all panels can handle a 120Hz refresh rate. There is two ways of getting 120Hz on an LCD.

1: The panel actually supports refreshing its pixels at that rate. This is what the more expensive displays typically do.

2: The panel uses a backlight that cycles from top to bottom (typically referred to as a Scanning back light). This gives the affects of having a higher refresh rate without actually flipping the pixels that fast. So a cheaper panel can be used, but gives the same affect of of a 120Hz display. This does result in a dimmer display in some cases.

 

[nightspydk]

But yes mate you know more about it that I, but the big problem is (this is real hard in english for me), that you expect the concept refresh to be the same for ips and lcd, but it's not. I did not invent this madness someone else did. So you cannot compare.

It's not just that it's more..

 

[Black Octagon]

No, not all panels can handle a 120Hz refresh rate. There is two ways of getting 120Hz on an LCD.

1: The panel actually supports refreshing its pixels at that rate. This is what the more expensive displays typically do.

2: The panel uses a backlight that cycles from top to bottom (typically referred to as a Scanning back light). This gives the affects of having a higher refresh rate without actually flipping the pixels that fast. So a cheaper panel can be used, but gives the same affect of of a 120Hz display. This does result in a dimmer display in some cases.

Not just the panel. The timing controller (TCON) and, to a lesser extent, the DVI pcb, also have to support 120Hz.

 

[Black Octagon]

But yes mate you know more about it that I, but the big problem is (this is real hard in english for me), that you expect the concept refresh to be the same for ips and lcd, but it's not. I did not invent this madness someone else did. So you cannot compare.

It's not just that it's more..

IPS is a type of LCD...

The only type of non-LCD screens relevant for this discussion are the old CRT screens.

"LCD" includes pretty much everything that's not CRT. That includes all the following technologies: IPS, TN, PLS, VA, TFT, (O)LED, etc. etc. etc.

If this thread gets any more fail then my head may just explode. Everything I have pointed out so far in this thread is very much foundational basics of monitors. If people don't have this basic knowledge then they've got no business answering the kind of question posed by the OP.

 

[nightspydk]

Ips is not lcd end.

 

[Black Octagon]

Ips is not lcd end.

Face...palm! I give up. Some people are clearly more interested in using forums as a medium for externalising the nonsense in their head instead of actually learning something. Whatever man, go on believing what you want. For anyone reading this who actually gives a damn about knowing what's what: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/tft-guide,116-3.html

Hint for lazy ass mofos: Ctrl-F the term "liquid crystals"

Bye. I'm going back to forums that aren't a waste of my time

 

[nightspydk]

Okay I' sorry it ended like that and maybe you got me wrong.

That does not make it true what you said tho.

 

[bystander36]

Okay I' sorry it ended like that and maybe you got me wrong.

That does not make it true what you said tho.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824176217

Notice that the monitor is both an IPS and LCD monitor? (I chose an LCD listing, instead of an LED one, as I don't want to mention another possible misconception of yours).

And here is one that shows it as an LED, IPS and LCD.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824176232

 

[nightspydk]

Well I do not see that disprooing what I said and what misconception. Please tell I'm here to learn are you.

puha I feel like calling a spade but I won't let that part of me get the best..