Can't remember the show but it said memories are stored in DNA

[Onceler]

It said one theory was that the actual memories are stored in the DNA of the neuron not in the connections it makes.
Does anyone know what this show was and what is the feasibility that this is true?
The show was something along the lines of cracking the human brain.

 

[Gibsons]

It said one theory was that the actual memories are stored in the DNA of the neuron not in the connections it makes.
Does anyone know what this show was and what is the feasibility that this is true?
The show was something along the lines of cracking the human brain.

Don't know what show it was.

Feasibility depends on what they mean by "in the DNA." The sequence of DNA in the neurons doesn't change over time any more than other cells, and not specifically as a memory response.

Other changes like chromatin structure, methylation etc. are probably important. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23525042.

Neurons aren't my thing though, so I'm not really up to date.

 

[silverpig]

This is well outside my realm of expertise, but I think they are talking about inherited knowledge.

How does a spider just "know" how to spin a web? No one taught it, so it must be born with that knowledge already in its brain.

 

[sm625]

I've read a theory where the DNA helix forms a medium for which to store information holographically. Dont think of the base pair sequences themselves as data, think of them as the shell which holds the data, kind of like the wire in a simple electrical circuit. Except this isnt a simple circuit. It is modulated by things like your heart rhythm. Think of a DNA strand as a complex antenna, with its base pairs actually tuning a specific frequency. Except it isnt a single frequency as one of our rudimentary antennas would tune. It is an entire set of frequencies with a complex mathematical relationship that forms the holographic construct which is the medium for data storage and many other things. I believe we are only scratching the surface with regards to DNA. This field of science has been intentionally buried.

 

[Gibsons]

I've read a theory where the DNA helix forms a medium for which to store information holographically.

I've read a theory that the planets influence our behaviors by their position in the sky.

Dont think of the base pair sequences themselves as data, think of them as the shell which holds the data, kind of like the wire in a simple electrical circuit.

I don't think this makes any sense.

Except this isnt a simple circuit. It is modulated by things like your heart rhythm.

What exactly is being modulated here? Gene expression?

I believe we are only scratching the surface with regards to DNA.

Imo, we've done a lot more than scratch the surface. Certainly there's a lot left to be learned.

This field of science has been intentionally buried.

What field is this, DNA holography? by who? Why?

 

[LoveMachine]

DNA can be made synthetically to store digital information (ala a harddrive, but using base pairs rather than flecks of iron), but it is not used for any storage of memory as we humans think of it. If you severe neuronal connections in your hippocampus, you will lose memories, but the DNA in each cell is still perfectly intact. Innate behaviors like silverpig mentioned may have genetic or epigenetic origins, but that's about it.

 

[sm625]

I've read a theory that the planets influence our behaviors by their position in the sky.

If you're going to be an ignorant smartass do not involve me. Go troll somewhere else. You are a perfect example of what has happened in the US. You think this stuff is a frickin joke, and you are utterly incapable of even making the effort required to think of DNA in this way. I dont have a moment to waste on the likes of you.

 

[Gibsons]

If you're going to be an ignorant smartass do not involve me.

I'm certainly guilty of being a smartass. But I'm not ignorant on the subject of DNA.

Go troll somewhere else. You are a perfect example of what has happened in the US. You think this stuff is a frickin joke, and you are utterly incapable of even making the effort required to think of DNA in this way.

Not trolling, challenging some views that I find absurd. I'll make a lot of effort if you can demonstrate any usefulness of this line of thought. Until then, I'll stick with things like codon tables, genes, chromatin, promoters, and lots and lots of empirical data.

 

[Mark R]

This is well outside my realm of expertise, but I think they are talking about inherited knowledge.

How does a spider just "know" how to spin a web? No one taught it, so it must be born with that knowledge already in its brain.

Inherited knowledge is generally thought to relate to vague principles. The best idea we have is that genes controlling neural development result in the creation of neural circuits of a particular general form.

So a spider "knows" how to spin a web, because it's the structure of its neural pathways will tend to result in a web.

This is generally not something that can be "inherited" after being modified during life. If anything, this is only something that develops over numerous generations.

That said, there is the concept of "epigenetics", where life events can result in alterations to DNA structure (not the code, itself, but other molecular or conformational changes - e.g. methylation). These can be heritable. The extent to which these might affect behaviours or neural pathways is far from clear, although that there may be an effect is certainly plausible.

 

[Gibsons]

Does anyone know if a spider gets better at spinning webs during its lifetime? Or is its first web approximately as good as any other web it will make?

 

[PsiStar]

Selective evolution ... if spiders statistically make bad webs, they would be less likely to procreate. Conversely, those that do well would (statistically) be more likely to procreate and pass along their genetic code. And (statistically) the genes that drive the good spin (what ever that might be) might get passed along.

In a way, isn't this what OP's subject is?

 

[intx13]

Does anyone know if a spider gets better at spinning webs during its lifetime? Or is its first web approximately as good as any other web it will make?

I'd be interested in hearing about this too. I could imagine that the construction of a spider's webs might improve over time in accordance with physical growth (strength, endurance) of the spider, but I wonder if the design improves as the spider becomes more familiar with the target prey, which might be specific to the area in which the web was built.

If you're going to be an ignorant smartass do not involve me. Go troll somewhere else. You are a perfect example of what has happened in the US. You think this stuff is a frickin joke, and you are utterly incapable of even making the effort required to think of DNA in this way. I dont have a moment to waste on the likes of you.

What's wrong with skepticism based on knowledge, accompanied by a little snarky attitude? The rest of Gibson's post raised specific questions to the vague concept you posted, which indicates that he rationally considered your theory and found specific problem areas - or at least areas requiring further details. You could address those areas, maybe? Or, you know, just call him a troll and declare that the entire US is too dumb to understand your theory. Whichever you think is a more productive area of discussion.

Selective evolution ... if spiders statistically make bad webs, they would be less likely to procreate. Conversely, those that do well would (statistically) be more likely to procreate and pass along their genetic code. And (statistically) the genes that drive the good spin (what ever that might be) might get passed along.

In a way, isn't this what OP's subject is?

I think the OP is asking about conscious memories of life: specific events and experiences that the host can recall on-demand. As far as I am aware, there is no scientific basis to assume that such memories are stored in ones's DNA. The most immediate objection would be that organ transplants happen every day and there is no evidence that recipients gain new memories from the donor. A second objection would be that medical evidence shows memories are strictly in the brain: changes to the brain can affect memory capabilities and changes to other parts of the body do not. A third objection would be that DNA is transmitted through reproduction, but memories are not. A fourth objection would be that DNA in a host can be mutated, but this seems to have no effect on memories.

There was a BBC documentary called "The Ghost in our Genes" (apparently it's on Youtube) that talked about epigenetics and the effect that a single host's life experiences can have on DNA and gene expression. I forget when it originally aired but I seem to recall it was pretty interesting. Might be relevant to this thread.

 

[socialdarwinist]

It said one theory was that the actual memories are stored in the DNA of the neuron not in the connections it makes.
Does anyone know what this show was and what is the feasibility that this is true?
The show was something along the lines of cracking the human brain.

Isn't this the basis of the animus in the Assassin's Creed series?

 

[colonelciller]

memories are NOT stored in DNA, that is bad sci-fi and pseudoscience.

DNA modifications such as methylation have nothing to do with stored individual memories.

spider webs and other "instincts" are the result of accidental developmental brain configurations/structures (this is encoded by DNA) that were selected for by natural selection due to their providing an advantage (slight or otherwise) to the organism with the trait. over tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands to millions of years of natural selection you get the kind of selected-for hard-wiring (encoded by DNA) thatlooks externally like passed-down knowledge but is instead the product of the specific arrangment of nervous system structural 'nuclei' and neuronal connections that are developmentally encoded by DNA.

 

[Gibsons]

DNA modifications such as methylation have nothing to do with stored individual memories.

DNA methylation http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23197699

These results implicate Gadd45b as a learning-induced gene and a regulator of memory formation and are consistent with its potential role in active DNA demethylation in memory.

Histone methylation http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23426673

Our data demonstrates that KMT2B mediates hippocampal histone 3 lysine 4 di- and trimethylation and is a critical player for memory formation.

chromatin structure http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23665156

Here we review the current understanding of the molecular mechanisms controlling activity-dependent gene transcription leading synaptic plasticity and memory formation. We describe how Ca2+ entry through N-methyl-D-aspartate-type glutamate neurotransmitter receptors result in the activation of specific signaling pathways leading to changes in gene expression, giving special emphasis to the recent data pointing out different epigenetic mechanisms (histone acetylation, methylation and phosphorylation as well as DNA methylation and hydroxymethylation) underlying learning and memory.

 

[Onceler]

Does anyone remember the name of the show? I think that it had Morgan Freeman as host.

 

[intx13]

Does anyone remember the name of the show? I think that it had Morgan Freeman as host.

Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman?

Edit: Maybe it was this episode, , entitled "What Makes Us Who We are"?

 

[LoveMachine]

DNA methylation http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23197699



Histone methylation http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23426673


chromatin structure http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23665156

These activities do NOT imply that memory is stored in the DNA itself, merely that the modification of DNA alters how memories are stored in our brains. When baking a cake, if we add a little extra baking soda, the cake turns out differently, but it doesn't mean the flavor of the cake is stored in the baking soda.

 

[Gibsons]

These activities do NOT imply that memory is stored in the DNA itself, merely that the modification of DNA alters how memories are stored in our brains. When baking a cake, if we add a little extra baking soda, the cake turns out differently, but it doesn't mean the flavor of the cake is stored in the baking soda.

I think it's a bit more than "alters." More like "necessary for normal function."

 

[colonelciller]

DNA methylation http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23197699



Histone methylation http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23426673


chromatin structure http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23665156

nice pubmed quotes.

now take a look at the thread title and re-examine those articles, show me one that ties specific memories to DNA modifications. it's nice to be educated but it means little if you don't apply it properly

 

[SecurityTheatre]

If you're going to be an ignorant smartass do not involve me. Go troll somewhere else. You are a perfect example of what has happened in the US. You think this stuff is a frickin joke, and you are utterly incapable of even making the effort required to think of DNA in this way. I dont have a moment to waste on the likes of you.

The way you phrased your commentary was notably lacking in scientific understanding and had the tone of "someone on television once told me..."

Hence, the reactions you got.

And some of what you said was rather silly from a... you know.... science perspective.

If that is not the case and you have substantial background in advanced molecular genetics research, I apologize.

 

[Gibsons]

nice pubmed quotes.

You say that like it's an insult. You know of a better place to get data?

now take a look at the thread title and re-examine those articles, show me one that ties specific memories to DNA modifications. it's nice to be educated but it means little if you don't apply it properly

Are you going to tell me how to apply it properly? Or just make insinuations?

 

[colonelciller]

You say that like it's an insult. You know of a better place to get data?


Are you going to tell me how to apply it properly? Or just make insinuations?

pubmed is a great place to source info, when the info sourced IS relevant.

when the info sourced is NOT relevant then pubmed sources look like an attempt to intimidate via the literature OR like you are educated enough to know about pubmed but not educated enough to understand the content of the articles.

lastly i made no insinuation. the content you privided was not relevant because the topic is memories stored in DNA, not on how DNA/DNA modification globally (or specifically within a particular brain nuclei) regulates the memory formation/ storage of memories IN NEURONS.

 

[Gibsons]

pubmed is a great place to source info, when the info sourced IS relevant.

when the info sourced is NOT relevant then pubmed sources look like an attempt to intimidate via the literature OR like you are educated enough to know about pubmed but not educated enough to understand the content of the articles.

The sourced information is relevant. The papers are current and show an undeniable link between chromatin modification activities and memory formation and/or consolidation.

Can you link to any data that's more relevant?

lastly i made no insinuation.

You insinuated I was incapable of interpreting the data in the papers linked to. And did it again just now, suggesting I lack the education to understand the data. I'm not a neurologist, but I'm pretty good with molecular genetics.

the content you privided was not relevant because the topic is memories stored in DNA, not on how DNA/DNA modification globally (or specifically within a particular brain nuclei) regulates the memory formation/ storage of memories IN NEURONS.

The modifications occur in neurons, so I don't know what you're on about there.

Now, it's possible the modifications are transient and can be reversed at a later time without a concomitant loss of the associated memory, that can't be ruled out from what I've read (I just read the MLL2 paper I linked). However, these are covalent modifications, capable of lasting the lifetime of the organism. Meaning they could indeed be part of the media on to which neurological memory is 'written.'

If you can link to some data contraindicating this, please go ahead.

 

[intx13]

I am definitely neither a biologist nor a chemist, but...

Dynamic epigenetic mechanisms including histone and DNA modifications regulate animal behavior and memory. While numerous enzymes regulating these mechanisms have been linked to memory formation, the regulation of active DNA demethylation (i.e., cytosine-5 demethylation) has only recently been investigated. New discoveries aim toward the Growth arrest and DNA damage-inducible 45 (Gadd45) family, particularly Gadd45b, in activity-dependent demethylation in the adult CNS. This study found memory-associated expression of gadd45b in the hippocampus and characterized the behavioral phenotype of gadd45b(-/-) mice. Results indicate normal baseline behaviors and initial learning but enhanced persisting memory in mutants in tasks of motor performance, aversive conditioning and spatial navigation. Furthermore, we showed facilitation of hippocampal long-term potentiation in mutants. These results implicate Gadd45b as a learning-induced gene and a regulator of memory formation and are consistent with its potential role in active DNA demethylation in memory.

I read this abstract as saying three things.

1. The expression of Gadd45b limits the (mouse) brain's memory abilities and synaptic plasticity.
2. Expression of Gadd45b is induced through the use of the brain, creating a regulatory feedback loop. The more the brain is used, the more Gadd45b is expressed to limit the brain's abilities.
3. If deleted, the lack of Gadd45b expression results in increased synaptic plasticity because this feedback loop is not limiting the brain's abilities.

None of that implies that Gadd45b (or any other part of the genome) is dynamically modified to store memories.

The consolidation of long-term memories requires differential gene expression. Recent research has suggested that dynamic changes in chromatin structure play a role in regulating the gene expression program linked to memory formation. The contribution of histone methylation, an important regulatory mechanism of chromatin plasticity that is mediated by the counteracting activity of histone-methyltransferases and histone-demethylases, is, however, not well understood. Here we show that mice lacking the histone-methyltransferase myeloid/lymphoid or mixed-lineage leukemia 2 (mll2/kmt2b) gene in adult forebrain excitatory neurons display impaired hippocampus-dependent memory function. Consistent with the role of KMT2B in gene-activation DNA microarray analysis revealed that 152 genes were downregulated in the hippocampal dentate gyrus region of mice lacking kmt2b. Downregulated plasticity genes showed a specific deficit in histone 3 lysine 4 di- and trimethylation, while histone 3 lysine 4 monomethylation was not affected. Our data demonstrates that KMT2B mediates hippocampal histone 3 lysine 4 di- and trimethylation and is a critical player for memory formation.

I read this abstract as saying three things.

1. The histone methylation process limits the (mouse) brain's memory capabilities and synaptic plasticity.
2. The expression of the KMT2B gene reduces the histone methylation process, thus allowing less limiting of the brain's memory capabilities and synaptic plasticity.
3. Mice who do not have the KMT2B gene have deficient memory capabilities and synaptic plasticity, because this memory-impairing process is not limited.

None of that implies that KMT2B (or any other part of the genome) is dynamically modified to store memories.

Learning and memory are basic functions of the brain that allowed human evolution. It is well accepted that during learning and memory formation the dynamic establishment of new active synaptic connections is crucial. Persistent synaptic activation leads to series of molecular events that include increased release of neurotransmitters, increased expression of receptors on the postsynaptic neuron, thus creating a positive feedback that results in the activation of distinct signaling pathways that temporally and permanently alter specific patterns of gene expression. However, the epigenetic changes that allow the establishment of long term genetic programs that control learning and memory are not completely understood. Less is known regarding the signaling events triggered by synaptic activity that regulate these epigenetic marks. Here we review the current understanding of the molecular mechanisms controlling activity-dependent gene transcription leading synaptic plasticity and memory formation. We describe how Ca2+ entry through N-methyl-D-aspartate-type glutamate neurotransmitter receptors result in the activation of specific signaling pathways leading to changes in gene expression, giving special emphasis to the recent data pointing out different epigenetic mechanisms (histone acetylation, methylation and phosphorylation as well as DNA methylation and hydroxymethylation) underlying learning and memory.

I read this abstract as saying three things.

1. This is a review of other published results, not a novel discovery.
2. A specific chemical process described as "Ca2+ entry through N-methyl-D-aspartate-type glutamate neurotransmitter receptors" changes the way in which genes are expressed.
3. Specifically, it has an effect on genes that control various processes in the brain that allow memories to be created via synaptic plasticity.

None of that implies that any part of the genome is dynamically modified to store memories.


TL;DR: These papers indicate that during the host's life, the expression of various genes is dynamically adjusted via many different processes. Additionally, the expression of various genes dynamically adjusts those same processes. This implies there are many feedback loops in the brain that consist of interactions between gene expression and various chemical processes. Some of these feedback loops control the brain's synaptic plasticity, which is crucial for learning and storing memories. When these feedback loops are interrupted, either through direct interference with the chemical process or by deletion of the relevant genes, the corresponding mechanics of synaptic plasticity are no longer controlled and the brain either gains or loses abilities. Nothing in these papers indicates that the memories themselves are in any way encoded into the host's genome.