Capitol bill aims to control ?leftist? profs (Florida)

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
Ah yes, :roll: we need state lawmakers to decide :roll: if professors are teaching on :roll: subject or not. God forbid they say :roll: something that deviates from the lesson plan :roll:, they should be :roll: purged. Let's setup a :roll: USSR style system of snitches :roll: and minders to :roll: make sure they don't deviate from :roll: state approved curriculum. :roll: We can't have professors teaching :roll: students things they didn't :roll: expect to learn.
:roll:

I think there's a subtle second message in there somewhere...

 

[Rainsford]

At the risk of repeating myself, are we (by which I mean Republican lawmakers) going snipe hunting? Is this an actual problem that needs fixing, or a cheap stunt to regular academic free speech?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Infohawk

In an interview before the meeting, Baxley said ?arrogant, elitist academics are swarming? to oppose the bill, and media reports misrepresented his intentions.

Doesn't that sound like some of the ignorant nuts on this board? The last thing we need is them telling people what they can teach and be taught.

This is truly the most disburbing legislation I've heard of in a long time...

Ever think they should teach the subject of the class? OH TEH NOEEESSS!!!!:roll: How dare students actually expect to be taught the subject matter of the class they are paying for - those free-speech hating students! :roll:

CsG

Who say's they're not?

There are documented cases of such issues. FIRE has a good collection of them.

Now I wonder if anyone is going to point out where exactly in this legislation it tries to "control 'leftist' profs" or "limiting speech". Hmm...

CsG

 

[SuperTool]

How about giving parisioners standing to sue church employees who deviate from the gospel and go into politics?

 

[jackschmittusa]

During the committee hearing, Baxley cast opposition to his bill as ?leftists? struggling against ?mainstream society.?

Guess that's who he wants to control.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: Infohawk

In an interview before the meeting, Baxley said ?arrogant, elitist academics are swarming? to oppose the bill, and media reports misrepresented his intentions.

Doesn't that sound like some of the ignorant nuts on this board? The last thing we need is them telling people what they can teach and be taught.

This is truly the most disburbing legislation I've heard of in a long time...

I look at it like this:

How 'bout we leave what is taught to professor's/teacher's/educator's discretion?

Let the conservative educators point out their view, let the liberal educators point out their view, and let the students choose.

Now, granted, this doesn't really work for lower grades, but at that point there shouldn't be any disagreements on subject matter - whether you're liberal or conservative, basic addition/subtraction is pretty much the same.

I've had both liberal and conservative professors here at school, and I've gained a lot of perspective and knowledge from both sides. Quashing either voice is stupid, and anyone with a shred of rationality should realize that.

best post of the thread.

 

[Insomniak]

I try

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Now I wonder if anyone is going to point out where exactly in this legislation it tries to "control 'leftist' profs" or "limiting speech". Hmm...

CsG

It's clear what their motivations are. If you read the article you can tell who they're talking about when they say "arrogant, elitist academics." But one doesn't even need to get to the motivations: this legislation is fascist crap. If you don't think a university is teaching properly, DON'T GO THERE.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
:roll: way to misrepresent the legislation.

The Academic bill of rights has been discussed here before - this piece of legislation isn't much different than the others. It however is not directed only at the left as the OP is trying to suggest.
You all might try getting some FACTS before just lapping up this drivel...but alas, that's probably too much work and wouldn't give you your "Republicans are teh EVAL" fix. :roll:

CsG

It's a fact and not a misrepresentation that the bill is aimed at silencing political speech and suppressing scientific thought when the bill's sponsor Baxley is saying things like:

During the committee hearing, Baxley cast opposition to his bill as ?leftists? struggling against ?mainstream society.?

and

While promoting the bill Tuesday, Baxley said a university education should be more than ?one biased view by the professor, who as a dictator controls the classroom,?

He even said that he thinks that professors should be sued for teaching evolution.

 

[Infohawk]

Thanks for bumping this. This is really the scariest legislation I've seen in some time. Truly reflects fascism and a closed society.


I'm surprised there is not more outrage. I really hope this crap doesn't pass.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
:roll: way to misrepresent the legislation.

The Academic bill of rights has been discussed here before - this piece of legislation isn't much different than the others. It however is not directed only at the left as the OP is trying to suggest.
You all might try getting some FACTS before just lapping up this drivel...but alas, that's probably too much work and wouldn't give you your "Republicans are teh EVAL" fix. :roll:

CsG

It's a fact and not a misrepresentation that the bill is aimed at silencing political speech and suppressing scientific thought when the bill's sponsor Baxley is saying things like:

During the committee hearing, Baxley cast opposition to his bill as ?leftists? struggling against ?mainstream society.?

and

While promoting the bill Tuesday, Baxley said a university education should be more than ?one biased view by the professor, who as a dictator controls the classroom,?

He even said that he thinks that professors should be sued for teaching evolution.

That is your spin on it, but that doesn't make it fact. Try reading the bill. It does not allow for professors to be silenced - nor does it limit their "free speech". What it does however is protect the students from "professors" injecting their own BS into the classroom when it isn't the class subject.

But you and the others can whine and call it what you wish if it makes you feel better.

CsG

 

[Infohawk]

The threat of litigation can chill speech. Professors shouldn't have to worry about what they are teaching because of government intervention (which includes judicially sanctioned lawsuits.

Again, true fans of free markets (which csg is not) would let students decide what their teachers should teach them.

 

[illustri]

CSG

do you think a professor teaching european history be sued by a student who doesn't believe in the holocaust?

 

[illustri]

what about an ardent atheist in humanities who sues for having to read the bible or koran?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: illustri
CSG

do you think a professor teaching european history be sued by a student who doesn't believe in the holocaust?

no. And this law would not affect that. If the course is Euro History - that is part of Euro history. However is the "professor" starts ranting about the US or some other country(outside the context of Euro history) then the teacher needs to be stopped at that point.

This really isn't a hard concept to understand. I'm not sure why so many on the left here are fighting it. It goes both ways in protecting students you know. It also protects you leftist from those EVAL Conservative Christian Professors(are there any?:laugh: )

CsG

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
The threat of litigation can chill speech. Professors shouldn't have to worry about what they are teaching because of government intervention (which includes judicially sanctioned lawsuits.

Again, true fans of free markets (which csg is not) would let students decide what their teachers should teach them.

In the class room, the students have no power. The "professor" controls their grade. You want to talk about chilling speech? Try reading the FIRE website - you'll see exactly how speech is chilled - but it's by the professor's control of the student's grade.

Oh, and you can stop lying about my stance on the free market at any time now. Thanks

CsG

 

[illustri]

CadSortaGuy

why do students need to be protected from discussion or ideas? can't they think for themselves? do you think a university class is just rote memorization of facts mouthed off by a recorded speaker?

from another news source

The bill sets a statewide standard that students cannot be punished for professing beliefs with which their professors disagree.

furthermore,
i've been to FIRE more than once in the past, but I've never see a case where a professor is indoctrinating students at the expense of teaching them the required material

would you please link or give us a keyword so I get an idea of what you're talking about

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: illustri
CadSortaGuy

why do students need to be protected from discussion or ideas? can't they think for themselves? do you think a university class is just rote memorization of facts mouthed off by a recorded speaker?

from another news source

The bill sets a statewide standard that students cannot be punished for professing beliefs with which their professors disagree.

furthermore,
i've been to FIRE more than once in the past, but I've never see a case where a professor is indoctrinating students at the expense of teaching them the required material

would you please link or give us a keyword so I get an idea of what you're talking about

Why? Because student's grades are at risk and they are paying money for an education. Is there no accountability to the students? The "professor" has all the power over their grade - that alone warrants some checks and balances. Preferably it would be by School Administrations, but they have failed to act. They pay lipservice every once in a while but there is no action. Oh, and it may not be at the expense of teaching them the course material, but the issue here is that it doesn't belong there in the first place, especially when disagreements may affect how a "professor" grades.

If you have read the FIRE website you don't need a link. There is plenty there as this sort of legislation is modeled after their student bill of rights push.

CsG

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Infohawk
The threat of litigation can chill speech. Professors shouldn't have to worry about what they are teaching because of government intervention (which includes judicially sanctioned lawsuits.

Again, true fans of free markets (which csg is not) would let students decide what their teachers should teach them.

In the class room, the students have no power. The "professor" controls their grade. You want to talk about chilling speech? Try reading the FIRE website - you'll see exactly how speech is chilled - but it's by the professor's control of the student's grade.

Oh, and you can stop lying about my stance on the free market at any time now. Thanks

CsG

How am I lying about your free-market stance? When push comes to shove you are obviously for government intervention. The students have the power to not attend the university. Why is that so difficult to understand? So much for Republicans taking personal responsibilityl.

 

[illustri]

what are you above supplying a link or a case description to illustrate your point? The past times I've used FIRE have been research for altogether different issues, so it would have been helpful to our discussion if you had supplied even a keyword to look for a case where, as you keep asserting, the system already in place has failed to rectify the supposed case of a professor abusing his power

anyway the fact that the professor grades the students is a non-issue if you think about it. most have little leeway for a student's personal opinions to affect their exam performance, but sociology or poly sci or religion courses are probably more prone to the bias of a professor, but you deal with that in a way that doesn't compromise your beliefs and still recieve a good score

IIRC there was a post here not so long ago of a student complaining that the score on his history paper was low because he did not come to the conclusion as some others had, is that the kind of situation where we'd want the professor sued? by some disgruntled student?

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: illustri
CadSortaGuy

why do students need to be protected from discussion or ideas? can't they think for themselves? do you think a university class is just rote memorization of facts mouthed off by a recorded speaker?

from another news source

The bill sets a statewide standard that students cannot be punished for professing beliefs with which their professors disagree.

furthermore,
i've been to FIRE more than once in the past, but I've never see a case where a professor is indoctrinating students at the expense of teaching them the required material

would you please link or give us a keyword so I get an idea of what you're talking about

Why? Because student's grades are at risk and they are paying money for an education. Is there no accountability to the students? The "professor" has all the power over their grade - that alone warrants some checks and balances. Preferably it would be by School Administrations, but they have failed to act. They pay lipservice every once in a while but there is no action. Oh, and it may not be at the expense of teaching them the course material, but the issue here is that it doesn't belong there in the first place, especially when disagreements may affect how a "professor" grades.

If you have read the FIRE website you don't need a link. There is plenty there as this sort of legislation is modeled after their student bill of rights push.

CsG

I can provide you with the standards in place to ensure that students are afforded reasonable protection against malicious or capricious grading policies, at least at my university. Students don't pay for a grade, they pay for an education, and they shouldn't have the power to counter theories they don't like - but they should have protection, like I just noted, against capricious grading policies.

The more you protest the more I think you just like to whine.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
:roll: way to misrepresent the legislation.

The Academic bill of rights has been discussed here before - this piece of legislation isn't much different than the others. It however is not directed only at the left as the OP is trying to suggest.
You all might try getting some FACTS before just lapping up this drivel...but alas, that's probably too much work and wouldn't give you your "Republicans are teh EVAL" fix. :roll:

CsG

It's a fact and not a misrepresentation that the bill is aimed at silencing political speech and suppressing scientific thought when the bill's sponsor Baxley is saying things like:

During the committee hearing, Baxley cast opposition to his bill as ?leftists? struggling against ?mainstream society.?

and

While promoting the bill Tuesday, Baxley said a university education should be more than ?one biased view by the professor, who as a dictator controls the classroom,?

He even said that he thinks that professors should be sued for teaching evolution.

That is your spin on it, but that doesn't make it fact.

That's not spin--those are quotes from the bill's sponsor.

Try reading the bill. It does not allow for professors to be silenced - nor does it limit their "free speech".

I did read it, and it does allow professors to be sued for what they say in their classes, which is a limitation on their freedom of speech.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: illustri
CadSortaGuy

why do students need to be protected from discussion or ideas? can't they think for themselves? do you think a university class is just rote memorization of facts mouthed off by a recorded speaker?

from another news source

The bill sets a statewide standard that students cannot be punished for professing beliefs with which their professors disagree.

furthermore,
i've been to FIRE more than once in the past, but I've never see a case where a professor is indoctrinating students at the expense of teaching them the required material

would you please link or give us a keyword so I get an idea of what you're talking about

Why? Because student's grades are at risk and they are paying money for an education. Is there no accountability to the students? The "professor" has all the power over their grade - that alone warrants some checks and balances. Preferably it would be by School Administrations, but they have failed to act. They pay lipservice every once in a while but there is no action. Oh, and it may not be at the expense of teaching them the course material, but the issue here is that it doesn't belong there in the first place, especially when disagreements may affect how a "professor" grades.

If you have read the FIRE website you don't need a link. There is plenty there as this sort of legislation is modeled after their student bill of rights push.

CsG

I can provide you with the standards in place to ensure that students are afforded reasonable protection against malicious or capricious grading policies, at least at my university. Students don't pay for a grade, they pay for an education, and they shouldn't have the power to counter theories they don't like - but they should have protection, like I just noted, against capricious grading policies.

The more you protest the more I think you just like to whine.

Any response to this?

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Infohawk

In an interview before the meeting, Baxley said ?arrogant, elitist academics are swarming? to oppose the bill, and media reports misrepresented his intentions.

Doesn't that sound like some of the ignorant nuts on this board? The last thing we need is them telling people what they can teach and be taught.

This is truly the most disburbing legislation I've heard of in a long time...

Ever think they should teach the subject of the class? OH TEH NOEEESSS!!!!:roll: How dare students actually expect to be taught the subject matter of the class they are paying for - those free-speech hating students! :roll:

CsG

Who the F are you to tell teachers how to teach their classes?!? Do I show up at your place of employment and tell you how to do your job?!? How about we pass legislation so your co-workers can sue you if they don't like the things you do/say? Here's a thought: Why don't you keep your dirty little Republican noses out of everyone's business? That includes college professors and that includes right-to-die cases like Schiavo.

 

[mithrandir2001]

If we have learned anything these past 4-5 years it's that Republicans are the sorriest bunch of hypocrites.