Capitol bill aims to control ?leftist? profs (Florida)

[arsbanned]

Leftist= someone who does not rubber stamp Bush and Co ideas and policies.

 

[Starbuck1975]

There is no doubt that there is a left leaning slant within the academic community, particularly on college campuses.

I do not think that censorship is the correct approach to dealing with these college professors. However, I see nothing wrong with ensuring that a balanced approach is taken such that the political ideologies and agendas of some of these professors is balanced by an alternative perspective.

People often complain about the brainwashing efforts of the right...for students on college campuses, if they are only receiving one perspective on events and issues, how is that not a similar form of brainwashing.

Or as Eric Cartman says, the only thing worse then hippies are know it all college hippies.

Man2: Right now we're proving we don't need corporations. We don't need money. This can become a commune where everyone just helps each other.
Man 1: Yeah, we'll have one guy who like, who like, makes bread. A-and one guy who like, l-looks out for other people's safety.
Stan: You mean like a baker and a cop?
Man 2: No no, can't you imagine a place where people live together and like, provide services for each other in exchange for their services?
Kyle: Yeah, it's called a town.
Driver: You kids just haven't been to college yet. But just you wait, this thing is about to get HUGE.

 

[fornax]

Ha-ha, I almost fell off the chair when I read this:

------------
Students who believe their professor is singling them out for ?public ridicule? ? for instance, when professors use the Socratic method to force students to explain their theories in class ? would also be given the right to sue.
-------------

I wonder how many people know what the Socratic method of teaching is? Hint: look up the verb "Socratise"... It would be very interesting if a professor (male by necessity) tries to apply Socrates' method on an unsuspecting student

On the topic: another example of how backward Republicans in general are and how when they can't compete in the intellectual marketplace they try to legislate universal stupidity, hoping that their glaring mental incapacity will not be that prominent.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Students who believe their professor is singling them out for ?public ridicule? ? for instance, when professors use the Socratic method to force students to explain their theories in class ? would also be given the right to sue.

How about publicly ridiculed for simply holding a different opinion.

I encountered this several times during my graduate studies...as former military, an assumed easy target for academic elitists who could not fathom how any educated person could possibly maintain any semblance of a conservative ideology.

That they were unable or unwilling to exchange ideas with a conservative who is quite capable of defending himself under pressure speaks volumes about the close minded and limited world view of anyone who is a slave to their own ideology.

On the topic: another example of how backward Republicans in general are and how when they can't compete in the intellectual marketplace they try to legislate universal stupidity, hoping that their glaring mental incapacity will not be that prominent.

Well Republicans can't be that stupid...they managed to outsmart the Democrats in the political chess game that was the 2004 election...or are we reverting to the tired excuse that the majority of America was simply too stupid to understand the nuances of Kerry's brilliance.

 

[computerpro3]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
Ah yes, :roll: we need state lawmakers to decide :roll: if professors are teaching on :roll: subject or not. God forbid they say :roll: something that deviates from the lesson plan :roll:, they should be :roll: purged. Let's setup a :roll: USSR style system of snitches :roll: and minders to :roll: make sure they don't deviate from :roll: state approved curriculum. :roll: We can't have professors teaching :roll: students things they didn't :roll: expect to learn.
:roll:

Obviously your English professor was too concerned with pointing out his views to teach you proper English, this is perfect example of why the bill is being passed.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: illustri
CadSortaGuy

why do students need to be protected from discussion or ideas? can't they think for themselves? do you think a university class is just rote memorization of facts mouthed off by a recorded speaker?

from another news source

The bill sets a statewide standard that students cannot be punished for professing beliefs with which their professors disagree.

furthermore,
i've been to FIRE more than once in the past, but I've never see a case where a professor is indoctrinating students at the expense of teaching them the required material

would you please link or give us a keyword so I get an idea of what you're talking about

Why? Because student's grades are at risk and they are paying money for an education. Is there no accountability to the students? The "professor" has all the power over their grade - that alone warrants some checks and balances. Preferably it would be by School Administrations, but they have failed to act. They pay lipservice every once in a while but there is no action. Oh, and it may not be at the expense of teaching them the course material, but the issue here is that it doesn't belong there in the first place, especially when disagreements may affect how a "professor" grades.

If you have read the FIRE website you don't need a link. There is plenty there as this sort of legislation is modeled after their student bill of rights push.

CsG

I can provide you with the standards in place to ensure that students are afforded reasonable protection against malicious or capricious grading policies, at least at my university. Students don't pay for a grade, they pay for an education, and they shouldn't have the power to counter theories they don't like - but they should have protection, like I just noted, against capricious grading policies.

The more you protest the more I think you just like to whine.

Any response to this?

Ofcourse they don't pay for a grade -they pay for an education on the subjects they choose. This bill doesn't change any of that. Good for your Uni, if they really do have a good system for students to use for situations where "professors" are overstepping their authority.
If "professors" would teach the subject of the class and grade according to on-subject merit, then none of this would be necessary.

CsG

 

[SuperTool]

Liberal professors should leave Florida like Jewish professors left Germany before WW2. If they aren't welcome there, why stay? Let Florida politicans teach courses instead.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Infohawk

In an interview before the meeting, Baxley said ?arrogant, elitist academics are swarming? to oppose the bill, and media reports misrepresented his intentions.

Doesn't that sound like some of the ignorant nuts on this board? The last thing we need is them telling people what they can teach and be taught.

This is truly the most disburbing legislation I've heard of in a long time...

Ever think they should teach the subject of the class? OH TEH NOEEESSS!!!!:roll: How dare students actually expect to be taught the subject matter of the class they are paying for - those free-speech hating students! :roll:

CsG

Who the F are you to tell teachers how to teach their classes?!? Do I show up at your place of employment and tell you how to do your job?!? How about we pass legislation so your co-workers can sue you if they don't like the things you do/say? Here's a thought: Why don't you keep your dirty little Republican noses out of everyone's business? That includes college professors and that includes right-to-die cases like Schiavo.

I'm a tax-payer -that's who I am, and as long as these Universities are getting public funds - the gov'ts can have a say in things like these. There is nothing in this bill that controls "leftist profs" - it protects all students in a way that the University system should have long ago. "professors" are there to teach the class subject - not whatever their whim of the day is - nor can/should they grade on such things. However, since there have been many cases(read the FIRE website for one of the best collections of evidence) in which students have been singled out or given poor grades solely because they don't agree with the "professors" beliefs. You want to whine about the "free speech" of the "professor" yet they are the ones in a position to directly abuse such things in the classroom - and unfortunately do through intimidation. Some students just stay silent and/or hide their real beliefs because of the "professors" control.

BTW, the elected gov't does have checks and balances in the court system - so no, they shouldn't keep their noses out of it.

CsG

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Infohawk

In an interview before the meeting, Baxley said ?arrogant, elitist academics are swarming? to oppose the bill, and media reports misrepresented his intentions.

Doesn't that sound like some of the ignorant nuts on this board? The last thing we need is them telling people what they can teach and be taught.

This is truly the most disburbing legislation I've heard of in a long time...

Ever think they should teach the subject of the class? OH TEH NOEEESSS!!!!:roll: How dare students actually expect to be taught the subject matter of the class they are paying for - those free-speech hating students! :roll:

CsG

Who the F are you to tell teachers how to teach their classes?!? Do I show up at your place of employment and tell you how to do your job?!? How about we pass legislation so your co-workers can sue you if they don't like the things you do/say? Here's a thought: Why don't you keep your dirty little Republican noses out of everyone's business? That includes college professors and that includes right-to-die cases like Schiavo.

I'm a tax-payer -that's who I am, and as long as these Universities are getting public funds - the gov'ts can have a say in things like these. There is nothing in this bill that controls "leftist profs" - it protects all students in a way that the University system should have long ago. "professors" are there to teach the class subject - not whatever their whim of the day is - nor can/should they grade on such things. However, since there have been many cases(read the FIRE website for one of the best collections of evidence) in which students have been singled out or given poor grades solely because they don't agree with the "professors" beliefs. You want to whine about the "free speech" of the "professor" yet they are the ones in a position to directly abuse such things in the classroom - and unfortunately do through intimidation. Some students just stay silent and/or hide their real beliefs because of the "professors" control.

BTW, the elected gov't does have checks and balances in the court system - so no, they shouldn't keep their noses out of it.

CsG

Last time I checked, classroom was not a place for free speech, and a professor can tell me to shut up if I start yapping about my beliefs or anything else. He is the one running the lecture. The professor is the one who has the authority to speak and to allocate time for others to speak. The student has the option of staying or leaving.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Infohawk

In an interview before the meeting, Baxley said ?arrogant, elitist academics are swarming? to oppose the bill, and media reports misrepresented his intentions.

Doesn't that sound like some of the ignorant nuts on this board? The last thing we need is them telling people what they can teach and be taught.

This is truly the most disburbing legislation I've heard of in a long time...

Ever think they should teach the subject of the class? OH TEH NOEEESSS!!!!:roll: How dare students actually expect to be taught the subject matter of the class they are paying for - those free-speech hating students! :roll:

CsG

Who the F are you to tell teachers how to teach their classes?!? Do I show up at your place of employment and tell you how to do your job?!? How about we pass legislation so your co-workers can sue you if they don't like the things you do/say? Here's a thought: Why don't you keep your dirty little Republican noses out of everyone's business? That includes college professors and that includes right-to-die cases like Schiavo.

I'm a tax-payer -that's who I am, and as long as these Universities are getting public funds - the gov'ts can have a say in things like these. There is nothing in this bill that controls "leftist profs" - it protects all students in a way that the University system should have long ago. "professors" are there to teach the class subject - not whatever their whim of the day is - nor can/should they grade on such things. However, since there have been many cases(read the FIRE website for one of the best collections of evidence) in which students have been singled out or given poor grades solely because they don't agree with the "professors" beliefs. You want to whine about the "free speech" of the "professor" yet they are the ones in a position to directly abuse such things in the classroom - and unfortunately do through intimidation. Some students just stay silent and/or hide their real beliefs because of the "professors" control.

BTW, the elected gov't does have checks and balances in the court system - so no, they shouldn't keep their noses out of it.

CsG

Last time I checked, classroom was not a place for free speech, and a professor can tell me to shut up if I start yapping about my beliefs or anything else. He is the one running the lecture. The professor is the one who has the authority to speak and to allocate time for others to speak. The student has the option of staying or leaving.

If a classroom is "not a place for free speech" - then why all the whining about the professor's "free speech"?
Ofcourse the professor has "control" of the classroom - this however does not grant them free reign - nor does it grant them the authority to grade on a person's opinions, ideology, or religion (no matter which way it goes).

CsG

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Infohawk

In an interview before the meeting, Baxley said ?arrogant, elitist academics are swarming? to oppose the bill, and media reports misrepresented his intentions.

Doesn't that sound like some of the ignorant nuts on this board? The last thing we need is them telling people what they can teach and be taught.

This is truly the most disburbing legislation I've heard of in a long time...

Ever think they should teach the subject of the class? OH TEH NOEEESSS!!!!:roll: How dare students actually expect to be taught the subject matter of the class they are paying for - those free-speech hating students! :roll:

CsG

Who the F are you to tell teachers how to teach their classes?!? Do I show up at your place of employment and tell you how to do your job?!? How about we pass legislation so your co-workers can sue you if they don't like the things you do/say? Here's a thought: Why don't you keep your dirty little Republican noses out of everyone's business? That includes college professors and that includes right-to-die cases like Schiavo.

I'm a tax-payer -that's who I am, and as long as these Universities are getting public funds - the gov'ts can have a say in things like these. There is nothing in this bill that controls "leftist profs" - it protects all students in a way that the University system should have long ago. "professors" are there to teach the class subject - not whatever their whim of the day is - nor can/should they grade on such things. However, since there have been many cases(read the FIRE website for one of the best collections of evidence) in which students have been singled out or given poor grades solely because they don't agree with the "professors" beliefs. You want to whine about the "free speech" of the "professor" yet they are the ones in a position to directly abuse such things in the classroom - and unfortunately do through intimidation. Some students just stay silent and/or hide their real beliefs because of the "professors" control.

BTW, the elected gov't does have checks and balances in the court system - so no, they shouldn't keep their noses out of it.

CsG

Last time I checked, classroom was not a place for free speech, and a professor can tell me to shut up if I start yapping about my beliefs or anything else. He is the one running the lecture. The professor is the one who has the authority to speak and to allocate time for others to speak. The student has the option of staying or leaving.

If a classroom is "not a place for free speech" - then why all the whining about the professor's "free speech"?
Ofcourse the professor has "control" of the classroom - this however does not grant them free reign - nor does it grant them the authority to grade on a person's opinions, ideology, or religion (no matter which way it goes).

CsG

Because professor has free speech in the classroom, the student doesn't. They aren't equals, get it through your head.
You are telling me a student should be able to disrupt a class, give a speech on creationism during class, and not face any negative consequences for wasting other students' time, and then be able to sue if the professor tells him to sit down? But a professor who goes off on a tangent in his own class should be reprimanded?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Infohawk

In an interview before the meeting, Baxley said ?arrogant, elitist academics are swarming? to oppose the bill, and media reports misrepresented his intentions.

Doesn't that sound like some of the ignorant nuts on this board? The last thing we need is them telling people what they can teach and be taught.

This is truly the most disburbing legislation I've heard of in a long time...

Ever think they should teach the subject of the class? OH TEH NOEEESSS!!!!:roll: How dare students actually expect to be taught the subject matter of the class they are paying for - those free-speech hating students! :roll:

CsG

Who the F are you to tell teachers how to teach their classes?!? Do I show up at your place of employment and tell you how to do your job?!? How about we pass legislation so your co-workers can sue you if they don't like the things you do/say? Here's a thought: Why don't you keep your dirty little Republican noses out of everyone's business? That includes college professors and that includes right-to-die cases like Schiavo.

I'm a tax-payer -that's who I am, and as long as these Universities are getting public funds - the gov'ts can have a say in things like these. There is nothing in this bill that controls "leftist profs" - it protects all students in a way that the University system should have long ago. "professors" are there to teach the class subject - not whatever their whim of the day is - nor can/should they grade on such things. However, since there have been many cases(read the FIRE website for one of the best collections of evidence) in which students have been singled out or given poor grades solely because they don't agree with the "professors" beliefs. You want to whine about the "free speech" of the "professor" yet they are the ones in a position to directly abuse such things in the classroom - and unfortunately do through intimidation. Some students just stay silent and/or hide their real beliefs because of the "professors" control.

BTW, the elected gov't does have checks and balances in the court system - so no, they shouldn't keep their noses out of it.

CsG

Last time I checked, classroom was not a place for free speech, and a professor can tell me to shut up if I start yapping about my beliefs or anything else. He is the one running the lecture. The professor is the one who has the authority to speak and to allocate time for others to speak. The student has the option of staying or leaving.

If a classroom is "not a place for free speech" - then why all the whining about the professor's "free speech"?
Ofcourse the professor has "control" of the classroom - this however does not grant them free reign - nor does it grant them the authority to grade on a person's opinions, ideology, or religion (no matter which way it goes).

CsG

Because professor has free speech in the classroom, the student doesn't. They aren't equals, get it through your head.
You are telling me a student should be able to disrupt a class, give a speech on creationism during class, and not face any negative consequences for wasting other students' time, and then be able to sue if the professor tells him to sit down? But a professor who goes off on a tangent in his own class should be reprimanded?

The professor has "free speech" but the student doesn't? Are you insane?
No I'm not saying the student can disrupt a class, quit being obtuse. I am stating however that a professor can't just go off and hold it over the students(grade or otherwise). In essence, a "professor" can't abuse their position of authority by inserting their own opinion, ideology, religion. This protects ALL students and does NOT infringe on free-speech at all.

CsG

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Infohawk

In an interview before the meeting, Baxley said ?arrogant, elitist academics are swarming? to oppose the bill, and media reports misrepresented his intentions.

Doesn't that sound like some of the ignorant nuts on this board? The last thing we need is them telling people what they can teach and be taught.

This is truly the most disburbing legislation I've heard of in a long time...

Ever think they should teach the subject of the class? OH TEH NOEEESSS!!!!:roll: How dare students actually expect to be taught the subject matter of the class they are paying for - those free-speech hating students! :roll:

CsG

Who the F are you to tell teachers how to teach their classes?!? Do I show up at your place of employment and tell you how to do your job?!? How about we pass legislation so your co-workers can sue you if they don't like the things you do/say? Here's a thought: Why don't you keep your dirty little Republican noses out of everyone's business? That includes college professors and that includes right-to-die cases like Schiavo.

I'm a tax-payer -that's who I am, and as long as these Universities are getting public funds - the gov'ts can have a say in things like these. There is nothing in this bill that controls "leftist profs" - it protects all students in a way that the University system should have long ago. "professors" are there to teach the class subject - not whatever their whim of the day is - nor can/should they grade on such things. However, since there have been many cases(read the FIRE website for one of the best collections of evidence) in which students have been singled out or given poor grades solely because they don't agree with the "professors" beliefs. You want to whine about the "free speech" of the "professor" yet they are the ones in a position to directly abuse such things in the classroom - and unfortunately do through intimidation. Some students just stay silent and/or hide their real beliefs because of the "professors" control.

BTW, the elected gov't does have checks and balances in the court system - so no, they shouldn't keep their noses out of it.

CsG

Last time I checked, classroom was not a place for free speech, and a professor can tell me to shut up if I start yapping about my beliefs or anything else. He is the one running the lecture. The professor is the one who has the authority to speak and to allocate time for others to speak. The student has the option of staying or leaving.

If a classroom is "not a place for free speech" - then why all the whining about the professor's "free speech"?
Ofcourse the professor has "control" of the classroom - this however does not grant them free reign - nor does it grant them the authority to grade on a person's opinions, ideology, or religion (no matter which way it goes).

CsG

Because professor has free speech in the classroom, the student doesn't. They aren't equals, get it through your head.
You are telling me a student should be able to disrupt a class, give a speech on creationism during class, and not face any negative consequences for wasting other students' time, and then be able to sue if the professor tells him to sit down? But a professor who goes off on a tangent in his own class should be reprimanded?

The professor has "free speech" but the student doesn't? Are you insane?

Inside a classroom. And if you think the student has a right to free speech inside a classroom, you are insane. A student speaks only when given permission by the professor.

No I'm not saying the student can disrupt a class, quit being obtuse. I am stating however that a professor can't just go off and hold it over the students(grade or otherwise).

What you say can and does influence your grade. That's life. But if a student disrupts a class, and professor tells him to be quiet, the student shouldn't be able to turn around and sue the professor.

In essence, a "professor" can't abuse their position of authority by inserting their own opinion, ideology, religion.

The professor can insert whatever he wants into the lesson plans. The course description says what he will cover, but it doesn't mean that nothing outside the course description will be covered. And no, students don't have a right to not hear what they didn't expect to hear. The professor has a right to say what he wants to say.

This protects ALL students and does NOT infringe on free-speech at all.
CsG

Really, telling a professor that he cannot insert his opinion does not infringe on his free speech. So if a professor says that in his opinion one theory is more likely than another he should be liable to get sued by a student who disagrees, and that's not infringing on his free speech? Only in your head.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Infohawk

In an interview before the meeting, Baxley said ?arrogant, elitist academics are swarming? to oppose the bill, and media reports misrepresented his intentions.

Doesn't that sound like some of the ignorant nuts on this board? The last thing we need is them telling people what they can teach and be taught.

This is truly the most disburbing legislation I've heard of in a long time...

Ever think they should teach the subject of the class? OH TEH NOEEESSS!!!!:roll: How dare students actually expect to be taught the subject matter of the class they are paying for - those free-speech hating students! :roll:

CsG

Who the F are you to tell teachers how to teach their classes?!? Do I show up at your place of employment and tell you how to do your job?!? How about we pass legislation so your co-workers can sue you if they don't like the things you do/say? Here's a thought: Why don't you keep your dirty little Republican noses out of everyone's business? That includes college professors and that includes right-to-die cases like Schiavo.

I can see how you'd be upset, DealMonkey. Liberals only control 72% of the teaching positions at the nation's universities (cite), which means the Left's oppressive doctrination process isn't as thorough as it could be . . .
And as for keeping one's nose out of other people business, maybe if your buddies on the left kept out of other people's wallets, the folks on the right might be more willing to stay out of other people's business. Just a thought.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Infohawk

In an interview before the meeting, Baxley said ?arrogant, elitist academics are swarming? to oppose the bill, and media reports misrepresented his intentions.

Doesn't that sound like some of the ignorant nuts on this board? The last thing we need is them telling people what they can teach and be taught.

This is truly the most disburbing legislation I've heard of in a long time...

Ever think they should teach the subject of the class? OH TEH NOEEESSS!!!!:roll: How dare students actually expect to be taught the subject matter of the class they are paying for - those free-speech hating students! :roll:

CsG

Who the F are you to tell teachers how to teach their classes?!? Do I show up at your place of employment and tell you how to do your job?!? How about we pass legislation so your co-workers can sue you if they don't like the things you do/say? Here's a thought: Why don't you keep your dirty little Republican noses out of everyone's business? That includes college professors and that includes right-to-die cases like Schiavo.

I can see how you'd be upset, DealMonkey. Liberals only control 72% of the teaching positions at the nation's universities (cite), which means the Left's oppressive doctrination process isn't as thorough as it could be . . .
And as for keeping one's nose out of other people business, maybe if your buddies on the left kept out of other people's wallets, the folks on the right might be more willing to stay out of other people's business. Just a thought.

The folks on the right should look in the mirror and stop spending like drunken sailors with a stolen credit card. I am still waiting for proof of this oppressive doctrination. Oh wait, there is none.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Infohawk

In an interview before the meeting, Baxley said ?arrogant, elitist academics are swarming? to oppose the bill, and media reports misrepresented his intentions.

Doesn't that sound like some of the ignorant nuts on this board? The last thing we need is them telling people what they can teach and be taught.

This is truly the most disburbing legislation I've heard of in a long time...

Ever think they should teach the subject of the class? OH TEH NOEEESSS!!!!:roll: How dare students actually expect to be taught the subject matter of the class they are paying for - those free-speech hating students! :roll:

CsG

Who the F are you to tell teachers how to teach their classes?!? Do I show up at your place of employment and tell you how to do your job?!? How about we pass legislation so your co-workers can sue you if they don't like the things you do/say? Here's a thought: Why don't you keep your dirty little Republican noses out of everyone's business? That includes college professors and that includes right-to-die cases like Schiavo.

I'm a tax-payer -that's who I am, and as long as these Universities are getting public funds - the gov'ts can have a say in things like these. There is nothing in this bill that controls "leftist profs" - it protects all students in a way that the University system should have long ago. "professors" are there to teach the class subject - not whatever their whim of the day is - nor can/should they grade on such things. However, since there have been many cases(read the FIRE website for one of the best collections of evidence) in which students have been singled out or given poor grades solely because they don't agree with the "professors" beliefs. You want to whine about the "free speech" of the "professor" yet they are the ones in a position to directly abuse such things in the classroom - and unfortunately do through intimidation. Some students just stay silent and/or hide their real beliefs because of the "professors" control.

BTW, the elected gov't does have checks and balances in the court system - so no, they shouldn't keep their noses out of it.

CsG

Last time I checked, classroom was not a place for free speech, and a professor can tell me to shut up if I start yapping about my beliefs or anything else. He is the one running the lecture. The professor is the one who has the authority to speak and to allocate time for others to speak. The student has the option of staying or leaving.

If a classroom is "not a place for free speech" - then why all the whining about the professor's "free speech"?
Ofcourse the professor has "control" of the classroom - this however does not grant them free reign - nor does it grant them the authority to grade on a person's opinions, ideology, or religion (no matter which way it goes).

CsG

Because professor has free speech in the classroom, the student doesn't. They aren't equals, get it through your head.
You are telling me a student should be able to disrupt a class, give a speech on creationism during class, and not face any negative consequences for wasting other students' time, and then be able to sue if the professor tells him to sit down? But a professor who goes off on a tangent in his own class should be reprimanded?

The professor has "free speech" but the student doesn't? Are you insane?

Inside a classroom. And if you think the student has a right to free speech inside a classroom, you are insane. A student speaks only when given permission by the professor.

No I'm not saying the student can disrupt a class, quit being obtuse. I am stating however that a professor can't just go off and hold it over the students(grade or otherwise).

What you say can and does influence your grade. That's life. But if a student disrupts a class, and professor tells him to be quiet, the student shouldn't be able to turn around and sue the professor.

In essence, a "professor" can't abuse their position of authority by inserting their own opinion, ideology, religion.

The professor can insert whatever he wants into the lesson plans. The course description says what he will cover, but it doesn't mean that nothing outside the course description will be covered. And no, students don't have a right to not hear what they didn't expect to hear. The professor has a right to say what he wants to say.

This protects ALL students and does NOT infringe on free-speech at all.
CsG

Really, telling a professor that he cannot insert his opinion does not infringe on his free speech. So if a professor says that in his opinion one theory is more likely than another he should be liable to get sued by a student who disagrees, and that's not infringing on his free speech? Only in your head.

Yet another morbidly obtuse reply from SuperTool...

Nowhere did I say a student is entitled or has a right to cause a scene - nor did I say they have a right to interrupt. Infact, I even stated that the "professor" has the authority to control the classroom - but hey, don't let all that stand in the way of your wailings...

This isn't all the BS you keep twisting it into - it's about protecting students from professors who abuse their position of authority regarding things outside the subject of the class. Opinion(as I stated) are fine, but when it is used(abused) to browbeat, single out, or harass a student - it crosses the line and should be stopped. A "professor" can hold whatever opinion on any subject he wishes, but taking it to his classroom and putting it in grading needs to be stopped. This is not about "free speech", it's about accountability and protection from abuses.

CsG

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Infohawk

In an interview before the meeting, Baxley said ?arrogant, elitist academics are swarming? to oppose the bill, and media reports misrepresented his intentions.

Doesn't that sound like some of the ignorant nuts on this board? The last thing we need is them telling people what they can teach and be taught.

This is truly the most disburbing legislation I've heard of in a long time...

Ever think they should teach the subject of the class? OH TEH NOEEESSS!!!!:roll: How dare students actually expect to be taught the subject matter of the class they are paying for - those free-speech hating students! :roll:

CsG

Who the F are you to tell teachers how to teach their classes?!? Do I show up at your place of employment and tell you how to do your job?!? How about we pass legislation so your co-workers can sue you if they don't like the things you do/say? Here's a thought: Why don't you keep your dirty little Republican noses out of everyone's business? That includes college professors and that includes right-to-die cases like Schiavo.

I'm a tax-payer -that's who I am, and as long as these Universities are getting public funds - the gov'ts can have a say in things like these. There is nothing in this bill that controls "leftist profs" - it protects all students in a way that the University system should have long ago. "professors" are there to teach the class subject - not whatever their whim of the day is - nor can/should they grade on such things. However, since there have been many cases(read the FIRE website for one of the best collections of evidence) in which students have been singled out or given poor grades solely because they don't agree with the "professors" beliefs. You want to whine about the "free speech" of the "professor" yet they are the ones in a position to directly abuse such things in the classroom - and unfortunately do through intimidation. Some students just stay silent and/or hide their real beliefs because of the "professors" control.

BTW, the elected gov't does have checks and balances in the court system - so no, they shouldn't keep their noses out of it.

CsG

Last time I checked, classroom was not a place for free speech, and a professor can tell me to shut up if I start yapping about my beliefs or anything else. He is the one running the lecture. The professor is the one who has the authority to speak and to allocate time for others to speak. The student has the option of staying or leaving.

If a classroom is "not a place for free speech" - then why all the whining about the professor's "free speech"?
Ofcourse the professor has "control" of the classroom - this however does not grant them free reign - nor does it grant them the authority to grade on a person's opinions, ideology, or religion (no matter which way it goes).

CsG

Because professor has free speech in the classroom, the student doesn't. They aren't equals, get it through your head.
You are telling me a student should be able to disrupt a class, give a speech on creationism during class, and not face any negative consequences for wasting other students' time, and then be able to sue if the professor tells him to sit down? But a professor who goes off on a tangent in his own class should be reprimanded?

The professor has "free speech" but the student doesn't? Are you insane?

Inside a classroom. And if you think the student has a right to free speech inside a classroom, you are insane. A student speaks only when given permission by the professor.

No I'm not saying the student can disrupt a class, quit being obtuse. I am stating however that a professor can't just go off and hold it over the students(grade or otherwise).

What you say can and does influence your grade. That's life. But if a student disrupts a class, and professor tells him to be quiet, the student shouldn't be able to turn around and sue the professor.

In essence, a "professor" can't abuse their position of authority by inserting their own opinion, ideology, religion.

The professor can insert whatever he wants into the lesson plans. The course description says what he will cover, but it doesn't mean that nothing outside the course description will be covered. And no, students don't have a right to not hear what they didn't expect to hear. The professor has a right to say what he wants to say.

This protects ALL students and does NOT infringe on free-speech at all.
CsG

Really, telling a professor that he cannot insert his opinion does not infringe on his free speech. So if a professor says that in his opinion one theory is more likely than another he should be liable to get sued by a student who disagrees, and that's not infringing on his free speech? Only in your head.

Yet another morbidly obtuse reply from SuperTool...

Nowhere did I say a student is entitled or has a right to cause a scene - nor did I say they have a right to interrupt. Infact, I even stated that the "professor" has the authority to control the classroom - but hey, don't let all that stand in the way of your wailings...

This isn't all the BS you keep twisting it into - it's about protecting students from professors who abuse their position of authority regarding things outside the subject of the class. Opinion(as I stated) are fine, but when it is used(abused) to browbeat, single out, or harass a student - it crosses the line and should be stopped. A "professor" can hold whatever opinion on any subject he wishes, but taking it to his classroom and putting it in grading needs to be stopped. This is not about "free speech", it's about accountability and protection from abuses.

CsG

So professors can't express their opinions in classroom? Whose bright idea is that?
Also a student may be disruptive and legitimately reprimanded by a professor, but perceive it as browbeating and singling out, and in turn sue the professor. Even if the professor is vindicated him or the university will have to bear a cost of defending a lawsuit from some punk who thinks he knows it all. So the professor has two choices, let the student continue disrupting class or risk being named in the lawsuit.
I don't think a professor should have to face those two choices. If a student has a complaint about the professor he can speak to the dean, but I don't think he should be able to sue.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I'm a tax-payer -that's who I am, and as long as these Universities are getting public funds - the gov'ts can have a say in things like these.

That's the biggest load of crap ever! Simply because you're a tax payer you can tell people how to do their jobs? Oh that's rich. Can I tell the gov't how to prosecute the war on terror? After all, I'm a tax-payer, right? Can I tell the EPA how to regulate the polluting industrial corporations? Hey, I'm a tax-payer! Please.

There is nothing in this bill that controls "leftist profs" - it protects all students in a way that the University system should have long ago. "professors" are there to teach the class subject - not whatever their whim of the day is - nor can/should they grade on such things.

That sounds like a nice talking point, but we all KNOW perfectly well who this legislation is targeting. All of the whining about liberal college professors is practically deafening. It's almost like the right-wingers have nothing else to complain and b!tch about.

However, since there have been many cases(read the FIRE website for one of the best collections of evidence) in which students have been singled out or given poor grades solely because they don't agree with the "professors" beliefs.

You know, I perused the FIRE web site a few months back and was unable to find a single instance of their cases that dealt with students getting a poor grade because of their ideology. Can you provide me with one?

You want to whine about the "free speech" of the "professor" yet they are the ones in a position to directly abuse such things in the classroom - and unfortunately do through intimidation. Some students just stay silent and/or hide their real beliefs because of the "professors" control.

Again, show me a particular case that demonstrates that this is as wide-spread as you like to believe. Remember, that the student-professor relationship tends to be a one-way street. The professor is not there to learn from the student, it's quite obviously the other way around. You seem to have some sort of misunderstanding in thinking that the student is supposed to be up on his soap-box telling the world how great Bush is or some such crap. Sit down, shut up, take notes and study. That's your job as a student.

BTW, the elected gov't does have checks and balances in the court system - so no, they shouldn't keep their noses out of it.
CsG

Last time I checked, college professors are not subject to election. Furthermore, there are plenty of choices when it comes to going to college. If you're a right-wing religious nutjob and feel the need to exist in an echo chamber of like-minded individuals, then by all means, go find yourself a nice Christian college to attend. Free market, baby.

As I said before, keep the busy-body noses outta everyone's business. Big gov't sucks, Cad, I thought that was one thing you and I could always agree on. Sometimes, I really wonder if you believe that any more.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
As I said before, keep the busy-body noses outta everyone's business. Big gov't sucks, Cad, I thought that was one thing you and I could always agree on. Sometimes, I really wonder if you believe that any more.

Nope. This thread convinced me Csg and many like-minded neoconservatives really don't care about the size of government or free enterprise. He can say he loves free markets all he wants but when it comes time to put his money where his mouth is he wants to tell organizations how to go about doing their thing.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I'm a tax-payer -that's who I am, and as long as these Universities are getting public funds - the gov'ts can have a say in things like these.

That's the biggest load of crap ever! Simply because you're a tax payer you can tell people how to do their jobs? Oh that's rich. Can I tell the gov't how to prosecute the war on terror? After all, I'm a tax-payer, right? Can I tell the EPA how to regulate the polluting industrial corporations? Hey, I'm a tax-payer! Please.

There is nothing in this bill that controls "leftist profs" - it protects all students in a way that the University system should have long ago. "professors" are there to teach the class subject - not whatever their whim of the day is - nor can/should they grade on such things.

That sounds like a nice talking point, but we all KNOW perfectly well who this legislation is targeting. All of the whining about liberal college professors is practically deafening. It's almost like the right-wingers have nothing else to complain and b!tch about.

However, since there have been many cases(read the FIRE website for one of the best collections of evidence) in which students have been singled out or given poor grades solely because they don't agree with the "professors" beliefs.

You know, I perused the FIRE web site a few months back and was unable to find a single instance of their cases that dealt with students getting a poor grade because of their ideology. Can you provide me with one?

You want to whine about the "free speech" of the "professor" yet they are the ones in a position to directly abuse such things in the classroom - and unfortunately do through intimidation. Some students just stay silent and/or hide their real beliefs because of the "professors" control.

Again, show me a particular case that demonstrates that this is as wide-spread as you like to believe. Remember, that the student-professor relationship tends to be a one-way street. The professor is not there to learn from the student, it's quite obviously the other way around. You seem to have some sort of misunderstanding in thinking that the student is supposed to be up on his soap-box telling the world how great Bush is or some such crap. Sit down, shut up, take notes and study. That's your job as a student.

BTW, the elected gov't does have checks and balances in the court system - so no, they shouldn't keep their noses out of it.
CsG

Last time I checked, college professors are not subject to election. Furthermore, there are plenty of choices when it comes to going to college. If you're a right-wing religious nutjob and feel the need to exist in an echo chamber of like-minded individuals, then by all means, go find yourself a nice Christian college to attend. Free market, baby.

As I said before, keep the busy-body noses outta everyone's business. Big gov't sucks, Cad, I thought that was one thing you and I could always agree on. Sometimes, I really wonder if you believe that any more.

Ah yes, the same tortured "logic" line supertool is trying to trot out...:roll:
No one is telling them how to do their job - protecting students from rogue "professors" is not telling professors how to do their job - quit being so dense.

Ignore reality if you wish DM but it is not left vs right - it is student vs "professors" abusing their positions.

If you read the site you wouldn't be asking for examples...

No one is claiming it is in every college or is every professor, but for you, the OP, others to claim it is targeting leftist professors is absurd - it equally protects students - from ANY side.
Also, I never said the professor was there to learn from the student - infact I have stated that the professor does have control in their classroom - however, that does not mean they can do anything they want. The issue here is accountability and the lack of recourses for students being wronged by professors. YOU seem to be the one with the misunderstanding since you(like supertool) have to twist and contort my statements into some bastardized position (I clearly have not taken) to argue over.

And as I stated, tax-payers need to hold those who receive gov't funds accountable. If the Uni system won't do it - the states can and must step in. Yes, big gov't sucks - however since we are stuck with it, I want to make sure there is some accountability for the taxpayer's dollars. Do you not think the University system should be accountable to those who fund it, whether the students or tax-payers?

CsG

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
So professors can't express their opinions in classroom? Whose bright idea is that?

Their opinions on the subject matter can be expressed, however off-subject opinions, ideologies, religions are not to be a part of the equation when it comes to grading or treatment.

Also a student may be disruptive and legitimately reprimanded by a professor, but perceive it as browbeating and singling out, and in turn sue the professor. Even if the professor is vindicated him or the university will have to bear a cost of defending a lawsuit from some punk who thinks he knows it all. So the professor has two choices, let the student continue disrupting class or risk being named in the lawsuit.

:roll: we aren't talking about a student disruption and no one is arguing that except you. Quit trotting out these inane little "duhversions".

I don't think a professor should have to face those two choices. If a student has a complaint about the professor he can speak to the dean, but I don't think he should be able to sue.

The "professor" doesn't face those two choices - that little scenario you keep trying to bleat on and on about isn't what this Student's bill of Rights is about and you know it. Try reading the legislation for once instead of dreaming up these rediculous topics that aren't even close to what the legislation addresses.

CsG

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool
So professors can't express their opinions in classroom? Whose bright idea is that?

Their opinions on the subject matter can be expressed, however off-subject opinions, ideologies, religions are not to be a part of the equation when it comes to grading or treatment.

So it would be OK for a student to sue a physics professor who says "God does not play dice?"

Also a student may be disruptive and legitimately reprimanded by a professor, but perceive it as browbeating and singling out, and in turn sue the professor. Even if the professor is vindicated him or the university will have to bear a cost of defending a lawsuit from some punk who thinks he knows it all. So the professor has two choices, let the student continue disrupting class or risk being named in the lawsuit.

:roll: we aren't talking about a student disruption and no one is arguing that except you. Quit trotting out these inane little "duhversions".

You have consider the unintended consequences. If a professor is teaching revolution, and the student keeps interrupting him with questions about Jesus horses, the professor may consider that a disruption and tell the student to sit down and be quiet, while a student may consider it a legitimate question and sue for "browbeating" as you call it.

I don't think a professor should have to face those two choices. If a student has a complaint about the professor he can speak to the dean, but I don't think he should be able to sue.

The "professor" doesn't face those two choices - that little scenario you keep trying to bleat on and on about isn't what this Student's bill of Rights is about and you know it. Try reading the legislation for once instead of dreaming up these rediculous topics that aren't even close to what the legislation addresses.
CsG

All I know is I don't want my professor to be worried about getting sued when he is doing his job. If a student asks a moronic question and the professor laughs, the student may feel he is being singled out for ridicule, when in fact it's his stupidity that's singling him out for ridicule. A student should not have legal standing to disrupt class and force others to listen to his drivel.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool
So professors can't express their opinions in classroom? Whose bright idea is that?

Their opinions on the subject matter can be expressed, however off-subject opinions, ideologies, religions are not to be a part of the equation when it comes to grading or treatment.

So it would be OK for a student to sue a physics professor who says "God does not play dice?"

Also a student may be disruptive and legitimately reprimanded by a professor, but perceive it as browbeating and singling out, and in turn sue the professor. Even if the professor is vindicated him or the university will have to bear a cost of defending a lawsuit from some punk who thinks he knows it all. So the professor has two choices, let the student continue disrupting class or risk being named in the lawsuit.

:roll: we aren't talking about a student disruption and no one is arguing that except you. Quit trotting out these inane little "duhversions".

You have consider the unintended consequences. If a professor is teaching revolution, and the student keeps interrupting him with questions about Jesus horses, the professor may consider that a disruption and tell the student to sit down and be quiet, while a student may consider it a legitimate question and sue for "browbeating" as you call it.

I don't think a professor should have to face those two choices. If a student has a complaint about the professor he can speak to the dean, but I don't think he should be able to sue.

The "professor" doesn't face those two choices - that little scenario you keep trying to bleat on and on about isn't what this Student's bill of Rights is about and you know it. Try reading the legislation for once instead of dreaming up these rediculous topics that aren't even close to what the legislation addresses.
CsG

All I know is I don't want my professor to be worried about getting sued when he is doing his job. If a student asks a moronic question and the professor laughs, the student may feel he is being singled out for ridicule, when in fact it's his stupidity that's singling him out for ridicule. A student should not have legal standing to disrupt class and force others to listen to his drivel.

Again, none of this applies to the Student's bill of Rights legislation. Try reading it so you dispense with the ridiculous "interruption" tangents.

CsG

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool
So professors can't express their opinions in classroom? Whose bright idea is that?

Their opinions on the subject matter can be expressed, however off-subject opinions, ideologies, religions are not to be a part of the equation when it comes to grading or treatment.

So it would be OK for a student to sue a physics professor who says "God does not play dice?"

Also a student may be disruptive and legitimately reprimanded by a professor, but perceive it as browbeating and singling out, and in turn sue the professor. Even if the professor is vindicated him or the university will have to bear a cost of defending a lawsuit from some punk who thinks he knows it all. So the professor has two choices, let the student continue disrupting class or risk being named in the lawsuit.

:roll: we aren't talking about a student disruption and no one is arguing that except you. Quit trotting out these inane little "duhversions".

You have consider the unintended consequences. If a professor is teaching revolution, and the student keeps interrupting him with questions about Jesus horses, the professor may consider that a disruption and tell the student to sit down and be quiet, while a student may consider it a legitimate question and sue for "browbeating" as you call it.

I don't think a professor should have to face those two choices. If a student has a complaint about the professor he can speak to the dean, but I don't think he should be able to sue.

The "professor" doesn't face those two choices - that little scenario you keep trying to bleat on and on about isn't what this Student's bill of Rights is about and you know it. Try reading the legislation for once instead of dreaming up these rediculous topics that aren't even close to what the legislation addresses.
CsG

All I know is I don't want my professor to be worried about getting sued when he is doing his job. If a student asks a moronic question and the professor laughs, the student may feel he is being singled out for ridicule, when in fact it's his stupidity that's singling him out for ridicule. A student should not have legal standing to disrupt class and force others to listen to his drivel.

Again, none of this applies to the Student's bill of Rights legislation. Try reading it so you dispense with the ridiculous "interruption" tangents.

CsG

I read it, have you?

According to a legislative staff analysis of the bill, the law would give students who think their beliefs are not being respected legal standing to sue professors and universities.

Students who believe their professor is singling them out for ?public ridicule? ? for instance, when professors use the Socratic method to force students to explain their theories in class ? would also be given the right to sue.

?Some professors say, ?Evolution is a fact. I don?t want to hear about Intelligent Design (a creationist theory), and if you don?t like it, there?s the door,?? Baxley said, citing one example when he thought a student should sue.

 

[Byers]

Here's a good piece on the matter...

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0328-30.htm