Carbon Credits

BriGy86

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2004
4,537
1
91
I'm not quite sure what is so great about them. Seems like some sort of scam to get money.

for example by the same reasoning I could beat my spouse, then donate money to a battered womens shelter and then everything would be ok.

Maybe I'm completely uninformed. What do other people think about them?
 

DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
7,559
0
0
Actually it'd be more like beating your wife then paying someone to not beat their wife. Then they beat their wife anyway.
 

Mikey

Senior member
Jun 16, 2006
996
1
0
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Actually it'd be more like beating your wife then paying someone to not beat their wife. Then they beat their wife anyway.

Bastards!
 

novasatori

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2003
3,851
1
0
Of course its a scam, I thought everyone knew this except corporations who need an excuse to say they're "green".
 

BriGy86

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2004
4,537
1
91
Originally posted by: novasatori
Of course its a scam, I thought everyone knew this except corporations who need an excuse to say they're "green".

ok, I'm glad lots of other people see the idiocy in it as well.
 

Aluvus

Platinum Member
Apr 27, 2006
2,913
1
0
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Actually it'd be more like beating your wife then paying someone to not beat their wife.

Yes, assuming the figure of merit is "total number of wives beaten" and that they would have beaten their wife had you not paid them.

That's obviously a pretty stupid figure of merit, which makes the analogy still pretty bad.

Then they beat their wife anyway.

In government-regulated carbon markets, the government can simply issue large fines to anyone that goes over their allotment. A well-regulated market (with a carefully-set cap on total credits available) can work rather well.

In unregulated transactions (such as the "pay us money and we'll plant trees to offset your carbon output" people), yes fraud is rampant (amongst other problems). The OP's analogy is similar to such transactions.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
Originally posted by: BriGy86
Originally posted by: novasatori
Of course its a scam, I thought everyone knew this except corporations who need an excuse to say they're "green".

ok, I'm glad lots of other people see the idiocy in it as well.

How much research did you do before you formulated that opinion?
 

BriGy86

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2004
4,537
1
91
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: BriGy86
Originally posted by: novasatori
Of course its a scam, I thought everyone knew this except corporations who need an excuse to say they're "green".

ok, I'm glad lots of other people see the idiocy in it as well.

How much research did you do before you formulated that opinion?

Not a lot, which is why I originally mentioned I could be completely uninformed. The unregulated transactions that Aluvus mentioned dare what I had in mind when I made this thread because that was all I had ever heard about.
 

chuckywang

Lifer
Jan 12, 2004
20,133
1
0
Originally posted by: BriGy86
I'm not quite sure what is so great about them. Seems like some sort of scam to get money.

for example by the same reasoning I could beat my spouse, then donate money to a battered womens shelter and then everything would be ok.

Maybe I'm completely uninformed. What do other people think about them?

Apples and oranges dude.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,221
12,544
136
Kahleeforneeya has had similar "pollution credits" for quite a while. If a company knows they're going to exceed the allowable pollution standards, they are allowed to buy unused credits from another company...Never seemed like it was actually doing anything to reduce pollution, just passing the buck so that the status quo could continue.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,280
5,722
146
If I'm not mistaken, they were originally started with power plants, and actually worked quite well for them (save some from having to spend billions to get up to spec right then, while rewarded other newer plants that went beyond the current standards). Its another thing that in limited use works well, but often times becomes corrupt as it becomes more prevalent. One of the key things about it is that its thought of as a way of allowing simple economics to serve in place of government regulations. Only time will tell which one is the worse. Another issue is that there's quite a political agenda behind it, so that will obviously impact it (and your opinion of it as well).
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,504
12
56
Originally posted by: BriGy86
I'm not quite sure what is so great about them. Seems like some sort of scam to get money.

for example by the same reasoning I could beat my spouse, then donate money to a battered womens shelter and then everything would be ok.

Maybe I'm completely uninformed. What do other people think about them?
bingo.

 

mrkun

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2005
2,177
0
0
All of you have missed this with the exception of Aluvus. The way this works is that a cap on total carbon units expendable is set for an entire nation and then the cap is lowered over time, thus reducing net carbon emissions (or any other type of emissions for that matter) for that country.
 

Slick5150

Diamond Member
Nov 10, 2001
8,760
3
81
Ugh.. The ignorance in this thread is astonishing.

They actually do serve a very valuable purpose. Let's say, like most Americans, you need to have a car to get to work, run errands, etc.. Your car is going to emit a certain amount of CO2 every year. Buying carbon credits isn't a way of eliminating those emissions, but it is an investment in clean energy technologies elsewhere. Examples of projects that carbon credits go towards are wind farms and biomass energy development. Projects that need funding like this to get off the ground. So, the end result is that you are helping create clean energy elsewhere that is going to reduce CO2 emissions.

Companies obviously can do the same thing but on a much larger scale.

Read up on it. One of the larger companies I know of doing this is called Terrapass. Go to their website and readup on the projects they work on.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Pointless? Not at all. There's billions to be made from clueless, gullible kool-aid sippers. Plenty of them too.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Carbon credits serve a pretty obvious purpose, and if any of you guys had done 4 seconds of research before forming an opinion (I know, I know, that's crazy talk), you'd know that. In fact, while it's "capitalists" who frequently scoff at carbon credits, they are actually the most reasonable method of controlling pollution without destroying the economy.

See, the problem with applying mandatory pollution standards to everyone equally is that everyone is NOT equal, not all industries or individuals can reduce their own pollution below a particular limit, while others can reduce their emissions well below any reasonable limit. If there was just a limit for output, you'd have to both deal with companies that emit too much and you'd have no way to give an incentive for anyone else to reduce emissions below the legal limit. Carbon credits solve both those problems, the end result being a system where people are given an incentive to reduce emissions as much as possible while giving some leeway to those who can't.

A simple example, company A and company B. Both pollute as part of their core business, but for various reasons, company B can reduce their emissions a lot more than company A. Now let's say we want overall emissions to be about 1000 tons per year per company, on average (totally made up numbers) and both companies currently emit about 1500 tons per year per company.

So in the non-carbon credit scenario, we set the legal limit at 1000 tons per year per company and enforce it through fines. Company B can easily reduce emissions to 1000 tons per year, which they do. Company A, on the other hand, struggles to reduce emissions to 1250 tons per year. They keep getting fined for not meeting the limits, and so either through fines or an effort to meet the limits, they spend a lot of money on their excess pollution and end up with a damaged business. Overall, we have an average of 1125 tons per year per company, and we've hurt one company.

WITH carbon credits, it's a different story. We set the legal limit, but this time allow company A to buy carbon credits to make up for their shortfall. Company B now has an incentive to reduce their emissions below the legal limit so they can sell company A their excess credits. So company B reduces their emissions to 750 tons per year, and sells the excess 250 tons of their allowance as credit to company A for cheaper than company A could reduce their emissions by that much. We now have 2 economically healthy companies, and an average emissions of 1000 tons per year per company. On both the environmental and capitalist fronts, we come out ahead.

The objections to carbon credits almost always look at one side the equation only, the amount the excess polluter is putting out. They dismiss carbon credits as some BS trying to magically spirit away the very real pollution without looking at the fact that there are a fixed amount of carbon credits in the system, which means the total amount of pollution remains the same. Only instead of trying to force every single company into the same box, we've created a more efficient system where the companies that are best at reducing pollution have an incentive to reduce it the most.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Pointless? Not at all. There's billions to be made from clueless, gullible kool-aid sippers. Plenty of them too.

That's great, and isn't it easy to just say things without really making an argument? For example, everyone who oppose carbon credits smashes cute little puppies with hammers as part of their satanic rituals. See how easy that was?

You obviously feel pretty strongly about this issue, so clearly you've done your research and came to an informed and well thought out position on carbon credits. So tell me, right now, why are they worthless except as a means to extract money from gullible kool-aid sippers? It's OK, you can go slow and use small words. But I'm a pretty smart guy, so I think I can understand your no doubt sophisticated reasoning on the issue.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Stick with the fines. At least the money goes to the Government, instead of lining the pockets of Al Gore and his heathen.

'Carbon Credits' ... man, what a scam. :laugh:
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
The planting and maintaining of forests in itself isn't a scam, that is actively offsetting CO2 output. But how much carbon emissions those trees are worth can easily be scamed, as can the value of all the research into emission reductions that such credits fund. So conceivably, one could run an on the table legitimate carbon credit operation, but I doubt anyone actually does.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Stick with the fines. At least the money goes to the Government, instead of lining the pockets of Al Gore and his heathen.

'Carbon Credits' ... man, what a scam. :laugh:

Well argued :roll:

Edit: And just so everyone knows, Pabster lures orphans into the woods and kills them :laugh:
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
The planting and maintaining forests in itself isn't a scam, that is actively offsetting CO2 output. But how much carbon emissions those trees are worth can easily be scamed, as can the value of all the research into emission reductions that such credits fund. So conceivably, one could run an on the table legitimate carbon credit operation, but I doubt anyone actually does.

And it's possible that the car dealership is trying to sell me a lemon...does that mean we should shut down all car dealerships because there is the potential for fraud? You're argument isn't about carbon credits, it's about people who might try and set up a scam based on it. Something that doesn't seem any easier with carbon credits than with any other area of the free market, and something we can deal with just like we deal with fraud in any other market. Just because you don't know how to calculate the offset amount of a tree doesn't mean it's some unknowable value.
 
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