Carbon Credits

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Ozoned
If we plant enough trees, coal could be a renewable resource that provides its own fertilizer.

Who is this "we" you speak of?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
...
The whole point is to reduce pollution, NOT to spread it around...If Company "A" is allowed to buy Company "b"'s carbon credits without cleaning up their operation, then nothing is really gained. Presumably Company "B" is a low-polluting company already, so there's no gain except that they make some $$ on the sale of the carbon credits.
Reducing the pollution output of Company "A" would be far better than allowing them to pay a premium to continue to pollute as they always have.
Perhaps tieing the right to purchase carbon credits could be tied in to a planned clean-up program...reduce emisions by 10%, get to buy 10 tons of carbon credit...reduce emissions by 25%, you get to buy 25 tons of credits...eventually, a company might clean up enough that they wouldn't need to buy the offsets.
...

Sure, there are situations where the overall reduction in pollution would be less initially, but I think you're underestimating the impact buying carbon credits has on a company's bottom line. Having Company A "pay a premium to continue to pollute" WILL result in the eventual reduction in pollution. No company pollutes for the hell of it, they do so because it's cheaper than NOT polluting. If that's no longer the case, they'll clean up their act.

Now sure, we could just say "reduce pollution or else", but that requires pretty complex regulation and meaningful punishment if the regulations are not met. You have to take into account the speed with which every single company can reduce their pollution, and you have to set limits either on an individual basis or make them high enough that you aren't being unreasonble towards the companies that pollute more...which of course means companies that DON'T pollute a lot have no incentive to reduce pollution at all. Carbon credits solve both these problems by allowing the market forces to deal with giving companies that pollute a lot an economic incentive to reduce their output...and you give the low-polluting companies an incentive to reduce their output as well. After all, it's not just a "do you meet the standard or not" question, having lower output is ALWAYS of economic value since you can sell your excess allowance. In your example, Company "A" would want to reduce their output so they don't have to buy credits (which aren't free, after all), while company B also wants to reduce their output so they have more credits to sell to company A.

They key point is that you have to pick a good amount of carbon credits for every company to have. Too many and you end up with the situation carbon credit detractors talk about, where it's cheap and easy to just buy your way out of having to clean up your act. Too few and the credits cost so much that a company will be bankrupted any way. But if you come up with just the right amount, there is incentive to reduce pollution without forcing everyone to do it all at once at gun point. And better yet, by lowering the allowances over time, you can encourage continued clean-up without having to watch every individual company like a hawk.

 

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: BriGy86
I'm not quite sure what is so great about them. Seems like some sort of scam to get money.

Oh my God, you just summed up the entire green movement in two sentences. Nice work.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: ja1484
Oh my God, you just summed up the entire green movement in two sentences. Nice work.

:thumbsup:

 

[IGBT]

..the carbon con is a great racket. it's going to open up a lot of wallets.

 

[umbrella39]

:roll:

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: ja1484

Originally posted by: BriGy86
I'm not quite sure what is so great about them. Seems like some sort of scam to get money.

Oh my God, you just summed up the entire green movement in two sentences. Nice work.

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: ja1484
Oh my God, you just summed up the entire green movement in two sentences. Nice work.

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by: IGBT
..the carbon con is a great racket. it's going to open up a lot of wallets.

I can't help but notice that not a one of you can actually come up with a decent argument...all you have is one-liners. Is this what passes for political debate on the right now?

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: ja1484

Originally posted by: BriGy86
I'm not quite sure what is so great about them. Seems like some sort of scam to get money.

Oh my God, you just summed up the entire green movement in two sentences. Nice work.

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: ja1484
Oh my God, you just summed up the entire green movement in two sentences. Nice work.

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by: IGBT
..the carbon con is a great racket. it's going to open up a lot of wallets.

I can't help but notice that not a one of you can actually come up with a decent argument...all you have is one-liners. Is this what passes for political debate on the right now?

..ahh. confused again I see. I'm a registered democrat.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: ja1484

Originally posted by: BriGy86
I'm not quite sure what is so great about them. Seems like some sort of scam to get money.

Oh my God, you just summed up the entire green movement in two sentences. Nice work.

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: ja1484
Oh my God, you just summed up the entire green movement in two sentences. Nice work.

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by: IGBT
..the carbon con is a great racket. it's going to open up a lot of wallets.

I can't help but notice that not a one of you can actually come up with a decent argument...all you have is one-liners. Is this what passes for political debate on the right now?

I'm sorry but what makes you think that you have the intellectual high ground here? Are you a professional in the field or something?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: ja1484

Originally posted by: BriGy86
I'm not quite sure what is so great about them. Seems like some sort of scam to get money.

Oh my God, you just summed up the entire green movement in two sentences. Nice work.

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: ja1484
Oh my God, you just summed up the entire green movement in two sentences. Nice work.

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by: IGBT
..the carbon con is a great racket. it's going to open up a lot of wallets.

I can't help but notice that not a one of you can actually come up with a decent argument...all you have is one-liners. Is this what passes for political debate on the right now?

I'm sorry but what makes you think that you have the intellectual high ground here? Are you a professional in the field or something?

I'm not a professional at all, and I don't think I'm claiming to be one. But at least I'm willing to make an argument and have a debate, which is more than I can say of a lot of the people posting in this thread. It doesn't take much to have the "intellectual high ground" over people with nothing but bumper sticker viewpoints. I might not be an industry expert when it comes to financial stuff, but let's face it, I'm not exactly debating with Alan Greenspan here either.

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: ja1484

Originally posted by: BriGy86
I'm not quite sure what is so great about them. Seems like some sort of scam to get money.

Oh my God, you just summed up the entire green movement in two sentences. Nice work.

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: ja1484
Oh my God, you just summed up the entire green movement in two sentences. Nice work.

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by: IGBT
..the carbon con is a great racket. it's going to open up a lot of wallets.

I can't help but notice that not a one of you can actually come up with a decent argument...all you have is one-liners. Is this what passes for political debate on the right now?

I'm sorry but what makes you think that you have the intellectual high ground here? Are you a professional in the field or something?

I'm not a professional at all, and I don't think I'm claiming to be one. But at least I'm willing to make an argument and have a debate, which is more than I can say of a lot of the people posting in this thread. It doesn't take much to have the "intellectual high ground" over people with nothing but bumper sticker viewpoints. I might not be an industry expert when it comes to financial stuff, but let's face it, I'm not exactly debating with Alan Greenspan here either.

..I'm stating the obvious. The carbon con is going to make a ton of money for those with the entrepreneurial infrastructure in place to tap into the windfall cash flow it will produce. Algore and others keenly set them self up in such form and fashion before they went on the stump and circuit with their alarmist propaganda. Willing accomplices in the media are propping up the alarmism for their own gains. Not all are fooled.. but more then happy to take your money.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: IGBT
..I'm stating the obvious. The carbon con is going to make a ton of money for those with the entrepreneurial infrastructure in place to tap into the windfall cash flow it will produce. Algore and others keenly set them self up in such form and fashion before they went on the stump and circuit with their alarmist propaganda. Willing accomplices in the media are propping up the alarmism for their own gains. Not all are fooled.. but more then happy to take your money.

Yeah, it's not like he's been talking about this for three decades or anything.

I know in your gut you FEEL like global warming has to be a scam, and that Al Gore is your enemy that must be defeated, but really this is all starting to look pretty sad on your part. You've been asked over and over again to provide the slightest shred of support for what you're saying, and every time you're asked you duck back to some sort of argument you heard on talk radio.

At this point you're just embarassing yourself.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: IGBT
..I'm stating the obvious. The carbon con is going to make a ton of money for those with the entrepreneurial infrastructure in place to tap into the windfall cash flow it will produce. Algore and others keenly set them self up in such form and fashion before they went on the stump and circuit with their alarmist propaganda. Willing accomplices in the media are propping up the alarmism for their own gains. Not all are fooled.. but more then happy to take your money.

Yeah, it's not like he's been talking about this for three decades or anything.

I know in your gut you FEEL like global warming has to be a scam, and that Al Gore is your enemy that must be defeated, but really this is all starting to look pretty sad on your part. You've been asked over and over again to provide the slightest shred of support for what you're saying, and every time you're asked you duck back to some sort of argument you heard on talk radio.

At this point you're just embarassing yourself.

Wow, he's been talking about man made global warming ever since global cooling was a crisis?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: IGBT
..I'm stating the obvious. The carbon con is going to make a ton of money for those with the entrepreneurial infrastructure in place to tap into the windfall cash flow it will produce. Algore and others keenly set them self up in such form and fashion before they went on the stump and circuit with their alarmist propaganda. Willing accomplices in the media are propping up the alarmism for their own gains. Not all are fooled.. but more then happy to take your money.

Yeah, it's not like he's been talking about this for three decades or anything.

I know in your gut you FEEL like global warming has to be a scam, and that Al Gore is your enemy that must be defeated, but really this is all starting to look pretty sad on your part. You've been asked over and over again to provide the slightest shred of support for what you're saying, and every time you're asked you duck back to some sort of argument you heard on talk radio.

At this point you're just embarassing yourself.

Wow, he's been talking about man made global warming ever since global cooling was a crisis?

Gore is a god among mere mortals. Of course it makes you wonder why if he has been championing this cause for 3 decades since the last scares of the coming ice age. Why didnt he do more as VP? And as a senator? Instead he chased the boogeyman of rock and roll music. And he and his wife got pwned by Dee Snider lmao.

 

[piasabird]

When did we vote on Carbon Credit Laws? What bill was that in? Where in the constitution is the concept of a carbon credit?

Whose wierd science is this any way?

 

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by: BriGy86
Seems like some sort of scam to get money.

yes
http://www.pics.bbzzdd.com/bet...elfenix/manbearpig.jpg

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Why didnt he do more as VP? And as a senator? Instead he chased the boogeyman of rock and roll music. And he and his wife got pwned by Dee Snider lmao.

LMAO. :thumbsup: :laugh:

 

[SilthDraeth]

What is wrong with killing orphans, their parents are dead already.

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Genx87
Why didnt he do more as VP? And as a senator? Instead he chased the boogeyman of rock and roll music. And he and his wife got pwned by Dee Snider lmao.

LMAO. :thumbsup: :laugh:

Once again, this thread is full of insightful Flabster commentary :roll:
Just the usual one liners from a partisan hack.

The idea of a truly open trade of carbon credits isn't a bad thing. What I'm worried about is possible "fees" set up by brokers of these credits, creating an incentive to make money and not do "the right thing". If it is going to be done, it should be done between the parties directly.

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: IGBT
..I'm stating the obvious. The carbon con is going to make a ton of money for those with the entrepreneurial infrastructure in place to tap into the windfall cash flow it will produce. Algore and others keenly set them self up in such form and fashion before they went on the stump and circuit with their alarmist propaganda. Willing accomplices in the media are propping up the alarmism for their own gains. Not all are fooled.. but more then happy to take your money.

Yeah, it's not like he's been talking about this for three decades or anything.

I know in your gut you FEEL like global warming has to be a scam, and that Al Gore is your enemy that must be defeated, but really this is all starting to look pretty sad on your part. You've been asked over and over again to provide the slightest shred of support for what you're saying, and every time you're asked you duck back to some sort of argument you heard on talk radio.

At this point you're just embarassing yourself.

..algore won't be embarassed to take your money.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: IGBT

..algore won't be embarassed to take your money.

Posts like this are just making things worse for you.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Genx87
Why didnt he do more as VP? And as a senator? Instead he chased the boogeyman of rock and roll music. And he and his wife got pwned by Dee Snider lmao.

LMAO. :thumbsup: :laugh:

Once again, this thread is full of insightful Flabster commentary :roll:
Just the usual one liners from a partisan hack.

The idea of a truly open trade of carbon credits isn't a bad thing. What I'm worried about is possible "fees" set up by brokers of these credits, creating an incentive to make money and not do "the right thing". If it is going to be done, it should be done between the parties directly.

Obviously there is the potential for scams surrounding carbon credits, but that's true of any field. Carbon credits themselves, however, are a perfectly reasonable thing to allow...and preventing scams based on them shouldn't be any more difficult than avoiding scams anywhere else. The people arguing that carbon credits are fundamentally a scam are being pretty dumb.

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Genx87
Why didnt he do more as VP? And as a senator? Instead he chased the boogeyman of rock and roll music. And he and his wife got pwned by Dee Snider lmao.

LMAO. :thumbsup: :laugh:

Once again, this thread is full of insightful Flabster commentary :roll:
Just the usual one liners from a partisan hack.

The idea of a truly open trade of carbon credits isn't a bad thing. What I'm worried about is possible "fees" set up by brokers of these credits, creating an incentive to make money and not do "the right thing". If it is going to be done, it should be done between the parties directly.

Obviously there is the potential for scams surrounding carbon credits, but that's true of any field. Carbon credits themselves, however, are a perfectly reasonable thing to allow...and preventing scams based on them shouldn't be any more difficult than avoiding scams anywhere else. The people arguing that carbon credits are fundamentally a scam are being pretty dumb.

I agree, I only meant to imply that there is the opportunity for some corruption, but that the idea, when allowed free of intervening forces looking for a quick buck, is a rather good one.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Obviously there is the potential for scams surrounding carbon credits

Yeah...well, at least we've gotten you to admit that much. :roll:

The fact is, Carbon Credits are a scam. Complete and total scam.

Do you know who "sells" these right now? For example, Gore "purchases" his carbon credits from a company which he owns a majority stake in, thereby creating a large tax write-off.

And I also take issue with the idea that at a fundamental level carbon credits are good. Why? You're not encouraging a company to change their ways, just to make a few bucks and swindle someone else.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: IGBT
...

..I'm stating the obvious. The carbon con is going to make a ton of money for those with the entrepreneurial infrastructure in place to tap into the windfall cash flow it will produce. Algore and others keenly set them self up in such form and fashion before they went on the stump and circuit with their alarmist propaganda. Willing accomplices in the media are propping up the alarmism for their own gains. Not all are fooled.. but more then happy to take your money.

Wow, I think this must be the first time in history that conservatives are opposed to someone making money.

Seriously, I really don't think you even know what you're talking about. Rather than "stating the obvious", maybe try to explain what carbon credits are and why they are bad...if it's so obvious, it shouldn't take more than a few sentences. Saying "it's so obvious" is easy, actually making a real argument is hard.