Carbon issues with direct injection engines

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bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
111
106
This is an interesting thread, as when I do buy a new car either this year or next, it likely will have Gas Direct Injection. I wonder aside from costs, don't the auto engineers look at either keeping the temperature around the valves down (deposits in theory should not be able to bake on them) or perhaps, come up with a material for the valves (maybe coat the sealing face with Teflon) or some type of high durability of ceramic for the valves. I am sure some company (like NASA) should be able to figure out a solution. I for one would hate to pay a dealer to clean the valves for an exorbitant cost to me.
 

echo4747

Golden Member
Jun 22, 2005
1,978
156
106
This is an interesting thread, as when I do buy a new car either this year or next, it likely will have Gas Direct Injection. I wonder aside from costs, don't the auto engineers look at either keeping the temperature around the valves down (deposits in theory should not be able to bake on them) or perhaps, come up with a material for the valves (maybe coat the sealing face with Teflon) or some type of high durability of ceramic for the valves. I am sure some company (like NASA) should be able to figure out a solution. I for one would hate to pay a dealer to clean the valves for an exorbitant cost to me.

If the carbon issue cant be prevented. The engineers should at least considering designing a system that could make cleaning much easier and far less labor intensive. Something that could be done at 35-50k intervals and maybe be done in a couple hours along with other req'd regular service/maint items
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
111
106
The problem is getting the cleaning product to the Backside of the Intake Valve. That can no happen if the cleaning fluid is sent through the fuel lines. What might be possible would be remove all the spark plugs and manually rotate the engine so piston is just a little down from full compression and the spray fuel injector cleaner up toward the top of the cylinder. That might clear some of the deposits.

CRC Products has a cleaner that is sprayed into the Air Intake and is said to do a decent cleaning. They say to do it every 10K Miles ... also some websites have mentioned use of a strong spring on the intake valve so it closes harder, thereby helping to break off the carbon buildup.

http://crcindustries.com/auto/intake-valve-cleaner.php

 
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Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
bruceb,

I saw that stuff yesterday (after finding this thread) and seems that it doesn't work very well from what I was reading. I specifically searched Google for it and couldn't find much positive. Seemed to turn the black carbon a whitish color but removed none from the photos that I saw.
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
111
106
Okay. So it would seem the only real way to clean it, is to remove the intake manifold to get to the back of the valves (a big job on some engines)
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
Okay. So it would seem the only real way to clean it, is to remove the intake manifold to get to the back of the valves (a big job on some engines)

Yes, it appears.

My new car seems to be able to use a media blaster unit made for the intake ports using crushed walnuts. Have to manually rotate the cam around so that the intake valves are closed, insert the unit (attached to a shop vac) and insert walnut blaster wand.

Seems that it can be done for about $400 or less in non dealer shops although I found a dealer (not locally though) that does it for $410 (shocked as I had read it could be up to $1,700).

Not sure what the recommended interval of cleaning is (I've read 30,000, 50,000 and specifically for this car, 75,000).
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
111
106
I heard about the crushed walnuts, but how they get them into where the valves are ? Through the air intake or some other way ? And as to how often to clean them, a lot would depend on how bad they are. But I would probably suggest every 25K miles or so (like maybe every 2 years, depending on how much mileage is put on) and a lot depends on gas and oil quality.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
I heard about the crushed walnuts, but how they get them into where the valves are ? Through the air intake or some other way ? And as to how often to clean them, a lot would depend on how bad they are. But I would probably suggest every 25K miles or so (like maybe every 2 years, depending on how much mileage is put on) and a lot depends on gas and oil quality.

At least on my car, you remove the intake manifold and there is a specially formed tool that fits each port opening. It has a vacuum attachment end (for shop vac) and a small hole near the port opening that you can place a blasting 'wand' through. You turn on the vacuum and then turn on the media blaster and rotate it around. As the carbon is removed, it and the media are sucked up via the shop vac.

As for gas and oil quality, maybe oil quality (how much evaporates and gets sucked out via pcv) but not sure gas quality has much to do with it (unless it effects how much blow by gets into the crankcase to be sucked out and pulled over intake valves).





fits right into....

 
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NutBucket

Lifer
Aug 30, 2000
27,036
548
126
Sounds like a dealerships' best dreams come true. Now in additional the "fuel injector service" they can upsell intake valve cleaning!

So all the money you "saved" by DI offering better fuel economy is instantly negated by needing a new maintenance procedure....ironically to ensure good fuel economy! LOL
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
111
106
So the manifold has to come off. Some DIY'ers may be able to do it, depending on how much other crap is in the way, not to mention probably having to drain some of the coolant as well.
 

railer

Golden Member
Apr 15, 2000
1,552
67
91
Sounds like a dealerships' best dreams come true. Now in additional the "fuel injector service" they can upsell intake valve cleaning!

So all the money you "saved" by DI offering better fuel economy is instantly negated by needing a new maintenance procedure....ironically to ensure good fuel economy! LOL

The more I read about this "issue", the more overblown I believe it to be. Aside from some notorious Audi/VW DI designs which were highly problematic, most other DI engines do not seem to exhibit measurable symptoms over time. Ford and GM have had DI engines in the pipeline for quite a while now, and many of those engines are in excess of 100k miles, and there does not seem to be any type of widespread maintenance requirement for their DI motors. Do they visual exhibit a higher carbon deposit than port fuel injected motors? Probably yes. Is it an actual problem that and end user is going to have to spend money to fix? Probably no.

Many good articles out there regarding this. I found this one informative:
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...a-problem-with-direct-injection-engines-.html


I'd still love to hear an educated response to the catch can question.
 

Denly

Golden Member
May 14, 2011
1,433
229
106
Just saw this thread. My gf's 2010 cooper S throw misfire code(s) and it end up being major carbon build up. Cost $500CAD for the walnut blast and we have to go back after 2wk to do it the second time(free) because the code come back on. This was last summer, at the time it had 120k KM on it. I use liquid molly 5w-40 full sync oil only, oil change every 6000k KM(manual call for 15000km) and Esso 91 only.

30k km later now the code coming back, looks like it will need another blast.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
So the manifold has to come off. Some DIY'ers may be able to do it, depending on how much other crap is in the way, not to mention probably having to drain some of the coolant as well.

The videos that I watched didn't seem so bad and no coolant drained (YMMV). You'll need a good size air compressor though and obviously, a shop vac. The kit sells for less than one cleaning, AFAIR.

Denly, seems like I read that some of the Coopers were really bad. Not sure if Audi/VW bad, but bad nonetheless.
 

Denly

Golden Member
May 14, 2011
1,433
229
106
Denly, seems like I read that some of the Coopers were really bad. Not sure if Audi/VW bad, but bad nonetheless.

forgot to add the old school of thought "drive more hwy" doesn't work, she spend an hour on highway everyday.

I always buy used car, is there an easy way to check for carbon build up?
 
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GDI Tech

Junior Member
Apr 19, 2016
20
0
0
I heard about the crushed walnuts, but how they get them into where the valves are ? Through the air intake or some other way ? And as to how often to clean them, a lot would depend on how bad they are. But I would probably suggest every 25K miles or so (like maybe every 2 years, depending on how much mileage is put on) and a lot depends on gas and oil quality.

This and the brush method are the two most common, and most effective ways to clean them. There are several factors that lead to this, and using a full synthetic engine oil is one of the better ones. This reduces the rate and severity, but does not prevent it. The example I posted of the new 2015 GDI Corvette the owner is an aircraft engineer/tech and he broke it in hard (the proper way) and drained the factory fill of cheap DEXOS syn blend out before 500 miles, and has only run a premium full synthetic since so his are far better looking that others at that 20k miles mark. To do these you must remove the intake manifold and first blow all clean with compressed air so no road debris can enter the ports. Then wipe each port clean and then tape off any ports that the valves are not fully closed in. Then you can start by first using a long shaft flat blade screw driver to scrape loose all you can. Then use the CRC spray cleaner or similar (Seafoam, BG, AMsoil has a good one, etc.) to soak that port and valves. Let sit for 15-30 minutes to soak in and loosen the deposits. They are very hard and abrasive, so hard to remove. Then brush using a universal shotgun cleaning brush set (extension clamps in cordless drill and works well for DIYers). Once those ports are all brushed, you suck out the solvent and debris with a shop vac on the port and further with compressed air nozzle. Repeat 2-3 times depending on severity of the coking. Then once all debris and solvent is sucked out and clean, rotate engine until the ports not cleaned are where the valves are closed (usually only 2-3 movements will cover all valves) and then tape over cleaned ports (you must ensure no debris falls into the cylinder) and repeat. To rotate engine, a manual trans you can push on it in gear and it will bump rotate the engine. If auto trans, get a socket or offset box wrench on crank bolt and do so that way. If you want to try and do it with starter, make sure all coils are unplugged so it does not start as injectors spray fuel directly into combustion chamber and it mat start w/IM off.

Here are two of the better videos on doing this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnMhNXXawjk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pz0zTQ1bz0



Sounds like a dealerships' best dreams come true. Now in additional the "fuel injector service" they can upsell intake valve cleaning!

So all the money you "saved" by DI offering better fuel economy is instantly negated by needing a new maintenance procedure....ironically to ensure good fuel economy! LOL

I agree to a point, the dealers are charging outrageous amounts and they are using the solvent based that at best removes up to 40% of the deposits, but this also causes damage to the pistons and cylinder walls due to the hard crystalline abrasive nature of these GDI deposits. This is not the soft carbon of days past. The sales side does NOT want any consumers to know about this as it would hurt sales understandably, and the automakers all claim they have no issue (even BMW and GM, the worst offenders), and then claim they have "cured it" when they are still saying they have no issues with it while neither is true.

The more I read about this "issue", the more overblown I believe it to be. Aside from some notorious Audi/VW DI designs which were highly problematic, most other DI engines do not seem to exhibit measurable symptoms over time. Ford and GM have had DI engines in the pipeline for quite a while now, and many of those engines are in excess of 100k miles, and there does not seem to be any type of widespread maintenance requirement for their DI motors. Do they visual exhibit a higher carbon deposit than port fuel injected motors? Probably yes. Is it an actual problem that and end user is going to have to spend money to fix? Probably no.

Many good articles out there regarding this. I found this one informative:
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...a-problem-with-direct-injection-engines-.html


I'd still love to hear an educated response to the catch can question.

The article, and many more all quote the auto makers that claim "we have no issues with this" when all automakers do. Think yours does not? Take the few minutes to remove your intake manifold and see in person, you will be shocked to see how severe. But most as the degradation is gradual as the coking forms will never realize it and will trade their vehicle for a new one passing on the problems to the next owner. Also, port injection engines due to the constant spray of detergent fuel on the valves that keeps them clean and cool, have zero issues with this. You would have to go back to carbureted engines to find intake valve coking issues, and they were far from this serious, but still wore out valve guides and the average gasoline engine used to need a valve job by 50-70k miles back then. So it has been several decades since there has been any intake valve coking on gasoline engines. This is an issue unique to GDI engines, and none are immune, and none have a "fix". Only installing a properly designed catchcan system will prevent this, and only a few are actually effective. 99% plus allow more oil and other contaminants pass through them and do little than make the owner "feel" like they have taken steps to prevent it. To date, only the Elite E2-X, Colorado Speeds, and the genuine RX systems stop all of this. And then there will always be a small amount of coking (the can systems mentioned stop 95% of the coking) due to the EGR emulation of the variable valve events that allows some back fill of burnt gasses that make contact with the valves backsides.

One only has to inspect their own valve to see, and also, BMW on the Mini has now changed the intake manifold from the rear to the front of the engine to make removal much easier than before on the prior mini models.

Lots of studies, with my favorite being a BMW tech that took his new BMW and every year at the same time had a dyno done on same dyno, same correction factors, every year for 3 years to document how much power was lost (first dyno was a year from new) and then performed the crushed walnut shell media blast method (many BMW dealer have these). Study this 3 year test:



See how the scale of degradation in power is not linear, but as time goes on, and miles accumulate, the deposits form more easily on the rough surface VS the new valves clean surface. Also, here is a port injection engine with 142000 miles on it, and no top tier fuel used and never a cleaning:



Anywhere the fuel made contact is deposit free from the standard detergents required by law in all gasoline.

Now, no oil is entering from the guides and valve seals unless the guides have already worn to the pint of valve instability that will allow oil past the seals. This rarely occurs until 20-30k miles on the engines. With port injection it was unheard of to ever have worn valve guides unless a mechanical failure like the LS7 GM engine with titanium valves. The heads were machine slightly of square, and the repeated impact with one portion of the seat before the rest of the valves placed side loads on the valves wearing the guides. Other than that example, guide wear went away with the carburetor.

All of this comes into the intake air charge with the PCV vapors. So trapping and scrubbing these vapors of the oil mist and other compounds that cause this will prevent it. Valves, unlike pistons that can maintain coatings for wear, etc. valves operate now so hot that there is no workable coating solution. The valves cannot operate any cooler w/out reverting back to port injection (the added small supplemental port injectors Audi and Toyota use does little, but does help a small amount, bit then allow more incidence of detonation).

Instead of posting hundreds of pictures as examples, here is a link to pictures supplied by automotive techs around the World of almost every make you can imagine, and you can see none are immune, yet all claim to be:

https://www.google.com/search?q=dir...k6XKAhUIrD4KHc3hBdMQ_AUIBygB&biw=1600&bih=775

As I work on these engines daily as my career, I can state there is NO automaker that does not suffer from this, and all are suffering from this. Anyone doubting this, take your IM off and see for yourself. Live in FL near Tampa/Sarasota? PM me and I will make arraignments for you to come to a shop that does the cleaning and they can do this for you if your not comfortable with removing your own IM. Especially anyone that thinks this is not as huge of an issue as it appears to be, your own personal car will show you undeniably.:thumbsup:
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
@GDI Tech ... know of any good catch cans for BMW (N20 engine)?

Might as well start trying to keep this stuff out as soon as possible (if any good ones are available).
 

railer

Golden Member
Apr 15, 2000
1,552
67
91
Especially anyone that thinks this is not as huge of an issue as it appears to be, your own personal car will show you undeniably.:thumbsup:

Appreciate your posts. The term huge means different things to different people. Blowing up an engine or transmission, to me, is huge.

If the engine misfires, or fuel economy drops, and you take it to a shop to get it cleaned after six or seven years, then that's not really much of a problem at all.

There's tons of people over on the ecoboost forum with trucks in excess of 100k miles, with no discernible DI related issues. They may have carbon buildup on their intake valves, and they may not like it, but they're still driving their trucks around just fine.

I do have a new GM 5.3 DI motor in the driveway with about 250 miles on it. I've got a borescope on the way. I'll look to see if there's a way to get the scope down the intake to take a peek at those valves, and will post pics if I can.
 

GDI Tech

Junior Member
Apr 19, 2016
20
0
0
@GDI Tech ... know of any good catch cans for BMW (N20 engine)?

Might as well start trying to keep this stuff out as soon as possible (if any good ones are available).

Here is a BMW performance shop that works with the coking issues and solutions:

http://franjospeed.com/

Try them!

Appreciate your posts. The term huge means different things to different people. Blowing up an engine or transmission, to me, is huge.

If the engine misfires, or fuel economy drops, and you take it to a shop to get it cleaned after six or seven years, then that's not really much of a problem at all.

There's tons of people over on the ecoboost forum with trucks in excess of 100k miles, with no discernible DI related issues. They may have carbon buildup on their intake valves, and they may not like it, but they're still driving their trucks around just fine.

I do have a new GM 5.3 DI motor in the driveway with about 250 miles on it. I've got a borescope on the way. I'll look to see if there's a way to get the scope down the intake to take a peek at those valves, and will post pics if I can.


Great way of putting it. I always look at things from the engineering and industry side as huge, and you are correct. For the average consumer, they will only see this as an inconvenience. From the industry side, I have never seen such a wide reaching debacle in my entire career. Consumers are used to buying a vehicle now days that they just buy, put gas in, and only do any maintenance until they are prompted by a DIC message. And this has caused GM to cut warranty app. in 1/2 for engines, and the amount of issues down the road all consumers will face is unlike any issue I can think of in the past. The closest would be when we went unleaded fuel in 1974 and the engines w/out hardened seats saw across the board valve recession and related damage, but that only affected pre 1970's engines. Then the GM Northstar engine and the electrolysis issue that caused all head bolt threads to eventually corrode away, or the Ford 6.0 Diesel EGR cooler issues causing all of those engnes to eventually fail.

Thanks for the way you worded your reply, this allows me to see this from a consumers point of view, and none of these will result in catastrophic engine failure, etc. Only gradual degradation f economy, power, and drive-ability.
 

GDI Tech

Junior Member
Apr 19, 2016
20
0
0
Ford just announced it is also adding in small port injectors for 2017 3.5L Ecoboost engine in an attempt to slow the coking formation. But to date, all the others that have done this for the past 4-5 years that we have examined still have unacceptable deposits forming.
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
111
106
It would seem then that the port injectors would need to be a bit bigger and told to be used by the computer say every 5,000 miles for say a few hundred miles. Also if they do put port injectors they can be controlled by the computer (with a scan tool) to go into cleaning mode at which point a mechanic would then run injector cleaner into the port injector fuel rail port.
 

KentState

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2001
8,397
393
126
Thanks for the information on cleaning of the Corvette LT1. I will have my shop check my valves when they do the intake manifold swap. Since it will be off, might as well clean the valves if necessary. The heads came off (methanol also installed) around 6k so it will be interesting to see how they aged over the last 5k miles. At this point, the car is maybe driven 5-6k a year so I can swing have it cleaned at yearly intervals if necessary.
 

ChronoReverse

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2004
2,562
31
91
Ford just announced it is also adding in small port injectors for 2017 3.5L Ecoboost engine in an attempt to slow the coking formation. But to date, all the others that have done this for the past 4-5 years that we have examined still have unacceptable deposits forming.

What about Toyota's 3.5L V6? I thought that dual injection system didn't have the problem?
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,513
221
106
Thanks for the information on cleaning of the Corvette LT1. I will have my shop check my valves when they do the intake manifold swap. Since it will be off, might as well clean the valves if necessary. The heads came off (methanol also installed) around 6k so it will be interesting to see how they aged over the last 5k miles. At this point, the car is maybe driven 5-6k a year so I can swing have it cleaned at yearly intervals if necessary.

I'm curious to see if your meth injection aids in keeping everything clean.
 

GDI Tech

Junior Member
Apr 19, 2016
20
0
0
It would seem then that the port injectors would need to be a bit bigger and told to be used by the computer say every 5,000 miles for say a few hundred miles. Also if they do put port injectors they can be controlled by the computer (with a scan tool) to go into cleaning mode at which point a mechanic would then run injector cleaner into the port injector fuel rail port.

Your onto an idea that could help, but the problem is the fuel would have to constantly spray the valve to keep it clean and cool. Once the deposits are formed, they are there to stay until a manual cleaning is performed. The entire premise behind GDI is to eliminate all combustible mixture from the compression stroke so detonation is nearly eliminated allowing these engines to run 11.5:1 and higher compression ratios. If fuel is introduced any time before the milliseconds before ignition, then detonation raises it's ugly head, and you can't run a port injection or carbureted engine on pump gas with anything much over 10.5:1. The knock sensors detect this and pull timing, so power and MG decrease. So the addition of port injectors back is truly going backwards when it is so easy to prevent all of this in the first place.

Thanks for the information on cleaning of the Corvette LT1. I will have my shop check my valves when they do the intake manifold swap. Since it will be off, might as well clean the valves if necessary. The heads came off (methanol also installed) around 6k so it will be interesting to see how they aged over the last 5k miles. At this point, the car is maybe driven 5-6k a year so I can swing have it cleaned at yearly intervals if necessary.

Excellent. Please post up some pictures for us. The ports closest to the pint of ingestion will be worse than those toward the rear of the engine, so pics of each if possible.

What about Toyota's 3.5L V6? I thought that dual injection system didn't have the problem?

ALL have the problem. Toyota and all other claim they do not, but simply remove your IM and see for yourself, this has helped a bit, but far from a fix.
 
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