So let me get this right...a player that actually gets on base at a great rate and knocks in his runners is worse than a player that doesn't get on base and knocks in his runners?
Again, do you think Dave Kingman is a hall of famer?
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"say that Bench's OPS is low because he has lots of HRs and RBIs (which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever), "
I did not say that. I said that since he was in situations where it was his job to knock runners in, primarily by hitting the ball deep, that this emphasis would make his batting average lower than someone who is primarily trying to not make an out.
You can evalutate his success or failure by his RBI total, 145 in a season..
you don't think 145 RBIs in a season indicates someone is an exceptional power hitter, I do.
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"want to only look at about 17% of a player's entire career"
I did not say that either. I said you don't want to do the opposite, you ONLY want to consider career.
In evaluating players I consider peak or career or both in deciding how good I think a player is.
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"That's how I see your statements as..."
well, then we're even.
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
You should also factor in offensive postseason performances. I spoke with many baseball pundits and they said yes, Bench was inconsistent during his career offensively, but all agreed on one thing: he was "clutch in the postseason".
Some examples: "In 1972, he was MVP again and hit a home run to lead off the bottom of the ninth inning in Game 5 of the NLCS. It tied the score with the Pirates and the Reds added another run that inning to win the game and the pennant. "
To get a better understanding of this:The whole scene is too ridiculous even to comprehend: Bench, facing an 0-2 count and his team down 3-2. Bench, who in the second inning had told Rose, "I hope I come up in the ninth inning with one man on and us needing a hit, because I know I'll get one." ... Bench, who in the on-deck circle before his fateful at-bat, told Joe Morgan, "I'm taking him to right field," even though Bench hardly ever hit to right field; he knew in his gut that Pittsburgh Pirates closer Dave Giusti would try to get him out with his palm ball away. ... Bench, who nodded and smiled when his mother walked down to the railing to signal him to hit a home run ("I knew I was going to hit one out," Bench later said. "I had that feeling.").
In 1973, the Reds squared off against the New York Mets in the NL Playoffs. In the opening game, Tom Seaver took a 1-1 tie into the bottom of the ninth in Cincinnati. Bench blasted a home run off the future Hall of Famer and the Reds won 2-1.
The 1975 World Series is regarded by many as the greatest ever played. In Game Two, in the bottom of the ninth inning with his team trailing the Red Sox 2-1, Bench doubled off Bill Lee and scored the tying run. The Reds went on to win the game 3-2, and ultimately the series. Even though Bench batted just .207 in the series, three of his six hits were for extra bases, and he drove in four runs.
The 1976 post-season truly belonged to Johnny Bench. In the playoffs against the Philadelphia Phillies he batted .333 in the three-game sweep. In the final game, with the Phils clinging to a 6-5 lead, Bench homered off Ron Reed to tie the score, paving the way to victory. In the World Series, Bench performed as well as any batter in history, collecting eight hits (four for extra-bases) in the four-game sweep of the New York Yankees. He batted .533 and hit two homers with six RBI. In Game Four, he hit a three-run blast in the top of the ninth to clinch the game and the series.
Coming through under pressure is something that I don't think Mike Piazza has done... yes it's a small sample size (Piazza only has 22 at bats), but when it was all on the line, what did he do? Did he do or die? Some players never even get to see a World Series, yet Piazza played in one in his prime. Bench was 1976 World Series MVP, mainly for his offense, and batted .533 in 13 at bats in a sweep of the New York Yankees and the late great Thurman Munson. Said Munson after the WS about Bench: "The man deserves all the credit in the world".
Some other stats: Bench joined the Reds late in the 1967 season and became a starter in 1968, when he set records for a catcher by playing in 154 games and hitting 40 doubles. (He was named the league's rookie of the year.) Did Piazza ever set the rookie record for 2B in his first year? Did he ever hit 40 doubles EVER? No, his high was 33 in 1997; Bench has hit 34, 35, 38, and 39 in comparison he was clearly a better doubles hitter. What about triples? Bench has 24 career, and Piazza 6, with Bench having 4,3,3 in triples and Piazza having 2,2,1 (I highly doubt Piazza will surpass him overall in this category cumulatively). On the other hand, Piazza has a season of over 200 hits and Bench doesn't.
In summary, I think your statement that Piazza "peaked" better than Bench is total BS. Bench has higher doubles, triples, HR's, and RBI totals amassed in his best years. Bench set the rookie record for 40 2B's as a catcher, a total that Piazza never reached in his whole CAREER (33 was his high). Bench led the league in HR's twice, RBI's 3X, led in Total Bases once (the ONLY time a catcher has EVER led the league in Total Bases!), things Piazza has never even done once. Bench has hit 45 HR's as a season high, something Piazza has never done (his high was 40). Piazza has only beaten Bench's high SLG% of .587 twice in his career with .638 (Piazza batted .362 this year) and .614 (he batted .324 this year), and this is only because SLG% is highly dependent upon BA which he does better than Bench (I didn't count the years Piazza played 109 and 112 games b/c that is not a FULL SEASON). Bench batted .533 as the World Series MVP, had 2HR's in game 4. Piazza batted .273 in the WS when it counted IN HIS PRIME, PEAK YEAR.
Given Piazza's average offensive stats in doubles, triples, and HR's it's absurd to say that he peaked better than Bench. He only beat Bench's best SLG% twice, which is hardly anything to brag about. Whine about at bats all you want, but shouldn't Piazza have beaten Bench in all offensive categories since he plays in a hitter's era? And what about Piazza's postseason performance when it counted (offensively). When it was his time to shine, he choked. Bench won it all with his bat, and was deemed WS MVP b/c of it, the highest offensive honor a player could receive. Bench also has proved many other times that he is clutch: when his team needed a hit, he responded. Bench clearly "peaked" better than Piazza offensively, although Piazza was more consistent throughout his career (avg/slg wise).
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
You should also factor in offensive postseason performances. I spoke with many baseball pundits and they said yes, Bench was inconsistent during his career offensively, but all agreed on one thing: he was "clutch in the postseason".
Some examples: "In 1972, he was MVP again and hit a home run to lead off the bottom of the ninth inning in Game 5 of the NLCS. It tied the score with the Pirates and the Reds added another run that inning to win the game and the pennant. "
To get a better understanding of this:The whole scene is too ridiculous even to comprehend: Bench, facing an 0-2 count and his team down 3-2. Bench, who in the second inning had told Rose, "I hope I come up in the ninth inning with one man on and us needing a hit, because I know I'll get one." ... Bench, who in the on-deck circle before his fateful at-bat, told Joe Morgan, "I'm taking him to right field," even though Bench hardly ever hit to right field; he knew in his gut that Pittsburgh Pirates closer Dave Giusti would try to get him out with his palm ball away. ... Bench, who nodded and smiled when his mother walked down to the railing to signal him to hit a home run ("I knew I was going to hit one out," Bench later said. "I had that feeling.").
In 1973, the Reds squared off against the New York Mets in the NL Playoffs. In the opening game, Tom Seaver took a 1-1 tie into the bottom of the ninth in Cincinnati. Bench blasted a home run off the future Hall of Famer and the Reds won 2-1.
The 1975 World Series is regarded by many as the greatest ever played. In Game Two, in the bottom of the ninth inning with his team trailing the Red Sox 2-1, Bench doubled off Bill Lee and scored the tying run. The Reds went on to win the game 3-2, and ultimately the series. Even though Bench batted just .207 in the series, three of his six hits were for extra bases, and he drove in four runs.
The 1976 post-season truly belonged to Johnny Bench. In the playoffs against the Philadelphia Phillies he batted .333 in the three-game sweep. In the final game, with the Phils clinging to a 6-5 lead, Bench homered off Ron Reed to tie the score, paving the way to victory. In the World Series, Bench performed as well as any batter in history, collecting eight hits (four for extra-bases) in the four-game sweep of the New York Yankees. He batted .533 and hit two homers with six RBI. In Game Four, he hit a three-run blast in the top of the ninth to clinch the game and the series.
Coming through under pressure is something that I don't think Mike Piazza has done... yes it's a small sample size (Piazza only has 22 at bats), but when it was all on the line, what did he do? Did he do or die? Some players never even get to see a World Series, yet Piazza played in one in his prime. Bench was 1976 World Series MVP, mainly for his offense, and batted .533 in 13 at bats in a sweep of the New York Yankees and the late great Thurman Munson. Said Munson after the WS about Bench: "The man deserves all the credit in the world".
Some other stats: Bench joined the Reds late in the 1967 season and became a starter in 1968, when he set records for a catcher by playing in 154 games and hitting 40 doubles. (He was named the league's rookie of the year.) Did Piazza ever set the rookie record for 2B in his first year? Did he ever hit 40 doubles EVER? No, his high was 33 in 1997; Bench has hit 34, 35, 38, and 39 in comparison he was clearly a better doubles hitter. What about triples? Bench has 24 career, and Piazza 6, with Bench having 4,3,3 in triples and Piazza having 2,2,1 (I highly doubt Piazza will surpass him overall in this category cumulatively). On the other hand, Piazza has a season of over 200 hits and Bench doesn't.
In summary, I think your statement that Piazza "peaked" better than Bench is total BS. Bench has higher doubles, triples, HR's, and RBI totals amassed in his best years. Bench set the rookie record for 40 2B's as a catcher, a total that Piazza never reached in his whole CAREER (33 was his high). Bench led the league in HR's twice, RBI's 3X, led in Total Bases once (the ONLY time a catcher has EVER led the league in Total Bases!), things Piazza has never even done once. Bench has hit 45 HR's as a season high, something Piazza has never done (his high was 40). Piazza has only beaten Bench's high SLG% of .587 twice in his career with .638 (Piazza batted .362 this year) and .614 (he batted .324 this year), and this is only because SLG% is highly dependent upon BA which he does better than Bench (I didn't count the years Piazza played 109 and 112 games b/c that is not a FULL SEASON). Bench batted .533 as the World Series MVP, had 2HR's in game 4. Piazza batted .273 in the WS when it counted IN HIS PRIME, PEAK YEAR.
Given Piazza's average offensive stats in doubles, triples, and HR's it's absurd to say that he peaked better than Bench. He only beat Bench's best SLG% twice, which is hardly anything to brag about. Whine about at bats all you want, but shouldn't Piazza have beaten Bench in all offensive categories since he plays in a hitter's era? And what about Piazza's postseason performance when it counted (offensively). When it was his time to shine, he choked. Bench won it all with his bat, and was deemed WS MVP b/c of it, the highest offensive honor a player could receive. Bench also has proved many other times that he is clutch: when his team needed a hit, he responded. Bench clearly "peaked" better than Piazza offensively, although Piazza was more consistent throughout his career (avg/slg wise).
You can state some strange fact about Bench's career (40 rookie doubles?) and NL ROY award (like Piazza) just like you can do the same about any other player.
If you look at overall offensive production, then Piazza's peak was better. You can pick out any single number and say 'This guy has more whatever'...but that doesn't really tell us much. However, you couldn't do that for any comprehensive statistic that looks at more than one single factor. Piazza had a higher batting average (which I hate looking at), SLG, OBP, OPS, OPS+, RC, EQA.
Originally posted by: przero
Boys, I hate to keep bringing this up, but don't sell Yogi short. He's got TEN rings. 15 time All-Star and 3 time AL MVP. Plus when he turned 18 he did 3 years in WWII. Kinda' hard to keep up the practice on Omaha Beach. Trust me, he had game!
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"Your site is saying EXACTLY what I said. Perhaps you didn't understand the way I stated it (even though I don't know how you couldn't understand it). I never stated anywhere that a double (a 2B) is worth 4 points. And maybe instead of 'plate appearances' I should have said 'at bats' but I did state that walks aren't counted.
Read the site again. It again says what SLG is (exactly what I said). You didn't even understand SLG when it was RIGHT in front of you on another website."
That isn't true. I did understand it, but your post led me to believe that there was a different formula, your use of the asterisk, which is the symbol used for multiplication, is what led to the confusion.
So no need for the condescending attitude.
Here is is some expansion on wehy I don't like OPS.. it overemphasizes batting average to the extreme. Here is why..
On base percentage is nothing more than batting average plus the other ways of getting on base, mainly walks.
Slugging percentage is nothing more than batting average with a bonus for extra base hits.
Add the two together and you effectively double the importance of batting average, a better stat might be slugging percentage plus walks.
But that still wouldn't give a complete picture of offensive output. It seriously undervalues RBIs, not to mention base running.
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"but career is obviously more important."
There isn't anything "obvious" about it, I don't even agree. It's one of those areas where you can compare players based on career, or based on their best.
Either comparison is equally valid, the career isn't more important, it's just different.
But if you want to discuss career, I don't understand why you think 389 home runs by a catcher is indicative of poor offensive performance ?
edit- also, could you clarify what we are arguing about at this point ? Are we still arguing about your position that Piazza is so vastly superior that Bench is coul be nothing but a pathetic loser(ofrfensively), or are we now arguing about Piazza being better than Bench, but not by such a vast amount ?
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
You should also factor in offensive postseason performances. I spoke with many baseball pundits and they said yes, Bench was inconsistent during his career offensively, but all agreed on one thing: he was "clutch in the postseason".
Some examples: "In 1972, he was MVP again and hit a home run to lead off the bottom of the ninth inning in Game 5 of the NLCS. It tied the score with the Pirates and the Reds added another run that inning to win the game and the pennant. "
To get a better understanding of this:The whole scene is too ridiculous even to comprehend: Bench, facing an 0-2 count and his team down 3-2. Bench, who in the second inning had told Rose, "I hope I come up in the ninth inning with one man on and us needing a hit, because I know I'll get one." ... Bench, who in the on-deck circle before his fateful at-bat, told Joe Morgan, "I'm taking him to right field," even though Bench hardly ever hit to right field; he knew in his gut that Pittsburgh Pirates closer Dave Giusti would try to get him out with his palm ball away. ... Bench, who nodded and smiled when his mother walked down to the railing to signal him to hit a home run ("I knew I was going to hit one out," Bench later said. "I had that feeling.").
In 1973, the Reds squared off against the New York Mets in the NL Playoffs. In the opening game, Tom Seaver took a 1-1 tie into the bottom of the ninth in Cincinnati. Bench blasted a home run off the future Hall of Famer and the Reds won 2-1.
The 1975 World Series is regarded by many as the greatest ever played. In Game Two, in the bottom of the ninth inning with his team trailing the Red Sox 2-1, Bench doubled off Bill Lee and scored the tying run. The Reds went on to win the game 3-2, and ultimately the series. Even though Bench batted just .207 in the series, three of his six hits were for extra bases, and he drove in four runs.
The 1976 post-season truly belonged to Johnny Bench. In the playoffs against the Philadelphia Phillies he batted .333 in the three-game sweep. In the final game, with the Phils clinging to a 6-5 lead, Bench homered off Ron Reed to tie the score, paving the way to victory. In the World Series, Bench performed as well as any batter in history, collecting eight hits (four for extra-bases) in the four-game sweep of the New York Yankees. He batted .533 and hit two homers with six RBI. In Game Four, he hit a three-run blast in the top of the ninth to clinch the game and the series.
Coming through under pressure is something that I don't think Mike Piazza has done... yes it's a small sample size (Piazza only has 22 at bats), but when it was all on the line, what did he do? Did he do or die? Some players never even get to see a World Series, yet Piazza played in one in his prime. Bench was 1976 World Series MVP, mainly for his offense, and batted .533 in 13 at bats in a sweep of the New York Yankees and the late great Thurman Munson. Said Munson after the WS about Bench: "The man deserves all the credit in the world".
Some other stats: Bench joined the Reds late in the 1967 season and became a starter in 1968, when he set records for a catcher by playing in 154 games and hitting 40 doubles. (He was named the league's rookie of the year.) Did Piazza ever set the rookie record for 2B in his first year? Did he ever hit 40 doubles EVER? No, his high was 33 in 1997; Bench has hit 34, 35, 38, and 39 in comparison he was clearly a better doubles hitter. What about triples? Bench has 24 career, and Piazza 6, with Bench having 4,3,3 in triples and Piazza having 2,2,1 (I highly doubt Piazza will surpass him overall in this category cumulatively). On the other hand, Piazza has a season of over 200 hits and Bench doesn't.
In summary, I think your statement that Piazza "peaked" better than Bench is total BS. Bench has higher doubles, triples, HR's, and RBI totals amassed in his best years. Bench set the rookie record for 40 2B's as a catcher, a total that Piazza never reached in his whole CAREER (33 was his high). Bench led the league in HR's twice, RBI's 3X, led in Total Bases once (the ONLY time a catcher has EVER led the league in Total Bases!), things Piazza has never even done once. Bench has hit 45 HR's as a season high, something Piazza has never done (his high was 40). Piazza has only beaten Bench's high SLG% of .587 twice in his career with .638 (Piazza batted .362 this year) and .614 (he batted .324 this year), and this is only because SLG% is highly dependent upon BA which he does better than Bench (I didn't count the years Piazza played 109 and 112 games b/c that is not a FULL SEASON). Bench batted .533 as the World Series MVP, had 2HR's in game 4. Piazza batted .273 in the WS when it counted IN HIS PRIME, PEAK YEAR.
Given Piazza's average offensive stats in doubles, triples, and HR's it's absurd to say that he peaked better than Bench. He only beat Bench's best SLG% twice, which is hardly anything to brag about. Whine about at bats all you want, but shouldn't Piazza have beaten Bench in all offensive categories since he plays in a hitter's era? And what about Piazza's postseason performance when it counted (offensively). When it was his time to shine, he choked. Bench won it all with his bat, and was deemed WS MVP b/c of it, the highest offensive honor a player could receive. Bench also has proved many other times that he is clutch: when his team needed a hit, he responded. Bench clearly "peaked" better than Piazza offensively, although Piazza was more consistent throughout his career (avg/slg wise).
You can state some strange fact about Bench's career (40 rookie doubles?) and NL ROY award (like Piazza) just like you can do the same about any other player.
If you look at overall offensive production, then Piazza's peak was better. You can pick out any single number and say 'This guy has more whatever'...but that doesn't really tell us much. However, you couldn't do that for any comprehensive statistic that looks at more than one single factor. Piazza had a higher batting average (which I hate looking at), SLG, OBP, OPS, OPS+, RC, EQA.
How are more doubles and triples hit by Bench "strange facts"? They are offensive stats and completely relevant to the discussion at hand. If Piazza is so much better peak wise, why doesn't he hold the record by a catcher for total bases in a season (especially with 2 seasons higher in SLG%)? Why doesn't Piazza ever come close in doubles, triples, HR's, or RBI in a hitter's era (Piazza also didn't lead MLB in these categories either)? These are hardly "strange facts", but the core of offensive power numbers. We already know that Piazza peaked with more base hits in his best years than Bench, which explains why his OBP and SLG are higher than Bench. But Bench is still superior in 2B, 3B, HR, and RBI totals during his peak years. The only 2 things he lost to Piazza were in avg and singles.
You also didn't factor Bench's clutch offensive postseason performances into the equation. He won the WS MVP for his offense. He has hit 4 game tying or winning HR's in the Postseason. Piazza didn't do squat in the postseason, and he was in his "peak", just like Bench, when the opportunity arose.
In summary, my feelings are best summed up as: Bench was superior in extra basehit raw numbers, RBI's, and postseason offensive clutch performance in "peak" years. Piazza was superior in singles and avg, which = higher SLG (by not much) and higher OBP. I don't think you can base Piazza's higher amount of hits and higher avg in peak years as justification that he "peaked" better offensively than Bench. It's simply a false statement when you look at the whole equation. Over their careers, I think Piazza was more consistent than Bench in almost everything, but you can't say that he peaked better.
You can pimp SLG and AVG all you want, it's nothing new. And you act as if the disparity between Player A and B correlates to Bench and Piazza, when in fact there was a big disparity in extra basehits between the two in peak years. Again, we're not talking career here. Bench clearly peaked better than Piazza. You can cry all you want that a .638 SLG is sooo much better than .587 SLG, but when you bat .362 it's hard NOT to have above .600 SLG. Yet, in those peak years for each, Bench still had significantly more 2B's, 3B's, HR's, and RBI's. Piazza had more singles, yet u claim he was a better POWER HITTER? You must be joking!Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
You should also factor in offensive postseason performances. I spoke with many baseball pundits and they said yes, Bench was inconsistent during his career offensively, but all agreed on one thing: he was "clutch in the postseason".
Some examples: "In 1972, he was MVP again and hit a home run to lead off the bottom of the ninth inning in Game 5 of the NLCS. It tied the score with the Pirates and the Reds added another run that inning to win the game and the pennant. "
To get a better understanding of this:The whole scene is too ridiculous even to comprehend: Bench, facing an 0-2 count and his team down 3-2. Bench, who in the second inning had told Rose, "I hope I come up in the ninth inning with one man on and us needing a hit, because I know I'll get one." ... Bench, who in the on-deck circle before his fateful at-bat, told Joe Morgan, "I'm taking him to right field," even though Bench hardly ever hit to right field; he knew in his gut that Pittsburgh Pirates closer Dave Giusti would try to get him out with his palm ball away. ... Bench, who nodded and smiled when his mother walked down to the railing to signal him to hit a home run ("I knew I was going to hit one out," Bench later said. "I had that feeling.").
In 1973, the Reds squared off against the New York Mets in the NL Playoffs. In the opening game, Tom Seaver took a 1-1 tie into the bottom of the ninth in Cincinnati. Bench blasted a home run off the future Hall of Famer and the Reds won 2-1.
The 1975 World Series is regarded by many as the greatest ever played. In Game Two, in the bottom of the ninth inning with his team trailing the Red Sox 2-1, Bench doubled off Bill Lee and scored the tying run. The Reds went on to win the game 3-2, and ultimately the series. Even though Bench batted just .207 in the series, three of his six hits were for extra bases, and he drove in four runs.
The 1976 post-season truly belonged to Johnny Bench. In the playoffs against the Philadelphia Phillies he batted .333 in the three-game sweep. In the final game, with the Phils clinging to a 6-5 lead, Bench homered off Ron Reed to tie the score, paving the way to victory. In the World Series, Bench performed as well as any batter in history, collecting eight hits (four for extra-bases) in the four-game sweep of the New York Yankees. He batted .533 and hit two homers with six RBI. In Game Four, he hit a three-run blast in the top of the ninth to clinch the game and the series.
Coming through under pressure is something that I don't think Mike Piazza has done... yes it's a small sample size (Piazza only has 22 at bats), but when it was all on the line, what did he do? Did he do or die? Some players never even get to see a World Series, yet Piazza played in one in his prime. Bench was 1976 World Series MVP, mainly for his offense, and batted .533 in 13 at bats in a sweep of the New York Yankees and the late great Thurman Munson. Said Munson after the WS about Bench: "The man deserves all the credit in the world".
Some other stats: Bench joined the Reds late in the 1967 season and became a starter in 1968, when he set records for a catcher by playing in 154 games and hitting 40 doubles. (He was named the league's rookie of the year.) Did Piazza ever set the rookie record for 2B in his first year? Did he ever hit 40 doubles EVER? No, his high was 33 in 1997; Bench has hit 34, 35, 38, and 39 in comparison he was clearly a better doubles hitter. What about triples? Bench has 24 career, and Piazza 6, with Bench having 4,3,3 in triples and Piazza having 2,2,1 (I highly doubt Piazza will surpass him overall in this category cumulatively). On the other hand, Piazza has a season of over 200 hits and Bench doesn't.
In summary, I think your statement that Piazza "peaked" better than Bench is total BS. Bench has higher doubles, triples, HR's, and RBI totals amassed in his best years. Bench set the rookie record for 40 2B's as a catcher, a total that Piazza never reached in his whole CAREER (33 was his high). Bench led the league in HR's twice, RBI's 3X, led in Total Bases once (the ONLY time a catcher has EVER led the league in Total Bases!), things Piazza has never even done once. Bench has hit 45 HR's as a season high, something Piazza has never done (his high was 40). Piazza has only beaten Bench's high SLG% of .587 twice in his career with .638 (Piazza batted .362 this year) and .614 (he batted .324 this year), and this is only because SLG% is highly dependent upon BA which he does better than Bench (I didn't count the years Piazza played 109 and 112 games b/c that is not a FULL SEASON). Bench batted .533 as the World Series MVP, had 2HR's in game 4. Piazza batted .273 in the WS when it counted IN HIS PRIME, PEAK YEAR.
Given Piazza's average offensive stats in doubles, triples, and HR's it's absurd to say that he peaked better than Bench. He only beat Bench's best SLG% twice, which is hardly anything to brag about. Whine about at bats all you want, but shouldn't Piazza have beaten Bench in all offensive categories since he plays in a hitter's era? And what about Piazza's postseason performance when it counted (offensively). When it was his time to shine, he choked. Bench won it all with his bat, and was deemed WS MVP b/c of it, the highest offensive honor a player could receive. Bench also has proved many other times that he is clutch: when his team needed a hit, he responded. Bench clearly "peaked" better than Piazza offensively, although Piazza was more consistent throughout his career (avg/slg wise).
You can state some strange fact about Bench's career (40 rookie doubles?) and NL ROY award (like Piazza) just like you can do the same about any other player.
If you look at overall offensive production, then Piazza's peak was better. You can pick out any single number and say 'This guy has more whatever'...but that doesn't really tell us much. However, you couldn't do that for any comprehensive statistic that looks at more than one single factor. Piazza had a higher batting average (which I hate looking at), SLG, OBP, OPS, OPS+, RC, EQA.
How are more doubles and triples hit by Bench "strange facts"? They are offensive stats and completely relevant to the discussion at hand. If Piazza is so much better peak wise, why doesn't he hold the record by a catcher for total bases in a season (especially with 2 seasons higher in SLG%)? Why doesn't Piazza ever come close in doubles, triples, HR's, or RBI in a hitter's era (Piazza also didn't lead MLB in these categories either)? These are hardly "strange facts", but the core of offensive power numbers. We already know that Piazza peaked with more base hits in his best years than Bench, which explains why his OBP and SLG are higher than Bench. But Bench is still superior in 2B, 3B, HR, and RBI totals during his peak years. The only 2 things he lost to Piazza were in avg and singles.
You also didn't factor Bench's clutch offensive postseason performances into the equation. He won the WS MVP for his offense. He has hit 4 game tying or winning HR's in the Postseason. Piazza didn't do squat in the postseason, and he was in his "peak", just like Bench, when the opportunity arose.
In summary, my feelings are best summed up as: Bench was superior in extra basehit raw numbers, RBI's, and postseason offensive clutch performance in "peak" years. Piazza was superior in singles and avg, which = higher SLG (by not much) and higher OBP. I don't think you can base Piazza's higher amount of hits and higher avg in peak years as justification that he "peaked" better offensively than Bench. It's simply a false statement when you look at the whole equation. Over their careers, I think Piazza was more consistent than Bench in almost everything, but you can't say that he peaked better.
Let me ask you a question. If I give you the following:
PlayerA:
HR: 48
RBI: 115
PlayerB:
HR: 46
RBI: 110
Who is better? People that only look at HRs and RBIs mainly, which is what you guys are basically using to show Bench is better than Piazza, would say that they're about equal. I would say that you can't tell anything really from these - we need a hell of a lot more information.
Now if I give you the following from the same players for the same seasons referenced above:
PlayerA:
OBP: .343
SLG: .613
PlayerB:
OBP: .582
SLG: .799
I don't need any other information to say who is better here. The separation is so enormous that there's no doubt in my mind as to who is better. I would say that PlayerB is CLEARLY far far far damn damn far superior to PlayerA. Wouldn't you? I hope you would because PlayerA is Dave Kingman in his best season and PlayerB is Barry Bonds in what some people consider as the best hitter's season of all time.
That's why only looking at HRs or RBIs tells you nothing. At least OBP and SLG take into many more factors into account and are rate based. Raw numbers don't tell you much - you'll need to look at everything instead with relation to at bats.
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
You can pimp SLG and AVG all you want, it's nothing new. And you act as if the disparity between Player A and B correlates to Bench and Piazza, when in fact there was a big disparity in extra basehits between the two in peak years. Again, we're not talking career here. Bench clearly peaked better than Piazza. You can cry all you want that a .638 SLG is sooo much better than .587 SLG, but when you bat .362 it's hard NOT to have above .600 SLG. Yet, in those peak years for each, Bench still had significantly more 2B's, 3B's, HR's, and RBI's. Piazza had more singles, yet u claim he was a better POWER HITTER? You must be joking!Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
You should also factor in offensive postseason performances. I spoke with many baseball pundits and they said yes, Bench was inconsistent during his career offensively, but all agreed on one thing: he was "clutch in the postseason".
Some examples: "In 1972, he was MVP again and hit a home run to lead off the bottom of the ninth inning in Game 5 of the NLCS. It tied the score with the Pirates and the Reds added another run that inning to win the game and the pennant. "
To get a better understanding of this:The whole scene is too ridiculous even to comprehend: Bench, facing an 0-2 count and his team down 3-2. Bench, who in the second inning had told Rose, "I hope I come up in the ninth inning with one man on and us needing a hit, because I know I'll get one." ... Bench, who in the on-deck circle before his fateful at-bat, told Joe Morgan, "I'm taking him to right field," even though Bench hardly ever hit to right field; he knew in his gut that Pittsburgh Pirates closer Dave Giusti would try to get him out with his palm ball away. ... Bench, who nodded and smiled when his mother walked down to the railing to signal him to hit a home run ("I knew I was going to hit one out," Bench later said. "I had that feeling.").
In 1973, the Reds squared off against the New York Mets in the NL Playoffs. In the opening game, Tom Seaver took a 1-1 tie into the bottom of the ninth in Cincinnati. Bench blasted a home run off the future Hall of Famer and the Reds won 2-1.
The 1975 World Series is regarded by many as the greatest ever played. In Game Two, in the bottom of the ninth inning with his team trailing the Red Sox 2-1, Bench doubled off Bill Lee and scored the tying run. The Reds went on to win the game 3-2, and ultimately the series. Even though Bench batted just .207 in the series, three of his six hits were for extra bases, and he drove in four runs.
The 1976 post-season truly belonged to Johnny Bench. In the playoffs against the Philadelphia Phillies he batted .333 in the three-game sweep. In the final game, with the Phils clinging to a 6-5 lead, Bench homered off Ron Reed to tie the score, paving the way to victory. In the World Series, Bench performed as well as any batter in history, collecting eight hits (four for extra-bases) in the four-game sweep of the New York Yankees. He batted .533 and hit two homers with six RBI. In Game Four, he hit a three-run blast in the top of the ninth to clinch the game and the series.
Coming through under pressure is something that I don't think Mike Piazza has done... yes it's a small sample size (Piazza only has 22 at bats), but when it was all on the line, what did he do? Did he do or die? Some players never even get to see a World Series, yet Piazza played in one in his prime. Bench was 1976 World Series MVP, mainly for his offense, and batted .533 in 13 at bats in a sweep of the New York Yankees and the late great Thurman Munson. Said Munson after the WS about Bench: "The man deserves all the credit in the world".
Some other stats: Bench joined the Reds late in the 1967 season and became a starter in 1968, when he set records for a catcher by playing in 154 games and hitting 40 doubles. (He was named the league's rookie of the year.) Did Piazza ever set the rookie record for 2B in his first year? Did he ever hit 40 doubles EVER? No, his high was 33 in 1997; Bench has hit 34, 35, 38, and 39 in comparison he was clearly a better doubles hitter. What about triples? Bench has 24 career, and Piazza 6, with Bench having 4,3,3 in triples and Piazza having 2,2,1 (I highly doubt Piazza will surpass him overall in this category cumulatively). On the other hand, Piazza has a season of over 200 hits and Bench doesn't.
In summary, I think your statement that Piazza "peaked" better than Bench is total BS. Bench has higher doubles, triples, HR's, and RBI totals amassed in his best years. Bench set the rookie record for 40 2B's as a catcher, a total that Piazza never reached in his whole CAREER (33 was his high). Bench led the league in HR's twice, RBI's 3X, led in Total Bases once (the ONLY time a catcher has EVER led the league in Total Bases!), things Piazza has never even done once. Bench has hit 45 HR's as a season high, something Piazza has never done (his high was 40). Piazza has only beaten Bench's high SLG% of .587 twice in his career with .638 (Piazza batted .362 this year) and .614 (he batted .324 this year), and this is only because SLG% is highly dependent upon BA which he does better than Bench (I didn't count the years Piazza played 109 and 112 games b/c that is not a FULL SEASON). Bench batted .533 as the World Series MVP, had 2HR's in game 4. Piazza batted .273 in the WS when it counted IN HIS PRIME, PEAK YEAR.
Given Piazza's average offensive stats in doubles, triples, and HR's it's absurd to say that he peaked better than Bench. He only beat Bench's best SLG% twice, which is hardly anything to brag about. Whine about at bats all you want, but shouldn't Piazza have beaten Bench in all offensive categories since he plays in a hitter's era? And what about Piazza's postseason performance when it counted (offensively). When it was his time to shine, he choked. Bench won it all with his bat, and was deemed WS MVP b/c of it, the highest offensive honor a player could receive. Bench also has proved many other times that he is clutch: when his team needed a hit, he responded. Bench clearly "peaked" better than Piazza offensively, although Piazza was more consistent throughout his career (avg/slg wise).
You can state some strange fact about Bench's career (40 rookie doubles?) and NL ROY award (like Piazza) just like you can do the same about any other player.
If you look at overall offensive production, then Piazza's peak was better. You can pick out any single number and say 'This guy has more whatever'...but that doesn't really tell us much. However, you couldn't do that for any comprehensive statistic that looks at more than one single factor. Piazza had a higher batting average (which I hate looking at), SLG, OBP, OPS, OPS+, RC, EQA.
How are more doubles and triples hit by Bench "strange facts"? They are offensive stats and completely relevant to the discussion at hand. If Piazza is so much better peak wise, why doesn't he hold the record by a catcher for total bases in a season (especially with 2 seasons higher in SLG%)? Why doesn't Piazza ever come close in doubles, triples, HR's, or RBI in a hitter's era (Piazza also didn't lead MLB in these categories either)? These are hardly "strange facts", but the core of offensive power numbers. We already know that Piazza peaked with more base hits in his best years than Bench, which explains why his OBP and SLG are higher than Bench. But Bench is still superior in 2B, 3B, HR, and RBI totals during his peak years. The only 2 things he lost to Piazza were in avg and singles.
You also didn't factor Bench's clutch offensive postseason performances into the equation. He won the WS MVP for his offense. He has hit 4 game tying or winning HR's in the Postseason. Piazza didn't do squat in the postseason, and he was in his "peak", just like Bench, when the opportunity arose.
In summary, my feelings are best summed up as: Bench was superior in extra basehit raw numbers, RBI's, and postseason offensive clutch performance in "peak" years. Piazza was superior in singles and avg, which = higher SLG (by not much) and higher OBP. I don't think you can base Piazza's higher amount of hits and higher avg in peak years as justification that he "peaked" better offensively than Bench. It's simply a false statement when you look at the whole equation. Over their careers, I think Piazza was more consistent than Bench in almost everything, but you can't say that he peaked better.
Let me ask you a question. If I give you the following:
PlayerA:
HR: 48
RBI: 115
PlayerB:
HR: 46
RBI: 110
Who is better? People that only look at HRs and RBIs mainly, which is what you guys are basically using to show Bench is better than Piazza, would say that they're about equal. I would say that you can't tell anything really from these - we need a hell of a lot more information.
Now if I give you the following from the same players for the same seasons referenced above:
PlayerA:
OBP: .343
SLG: .613
PlayerB:
OBP: .582
SLG: .799
I don't need any other information to say who is better here. The separation is so enormous that there's no doubt in my mind as to who is better. I would say that PlayerB is CLEARLY far far far damn damn far superior to PlayerA. Wouldn't you? I hope you would because PlayerA is Dave Kingman in his best season and PlayerB is Barry Bonds in what some people consider as the best hitter's season of all time.
That's why only looking at HRs or RBIs tells you nothing. At least OBP and SLG take into many more factors into account and are rate based. Raw numbers don't tell you much - you'll need to look at everything instead with relation to at bats.
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
You can pimp SLG and AVG all you want, it's nothing new. And you act as if the disparity between Player A and B correlates to Bench and Piazza, when in fact there was a big disparity in extra basehits between the two in peak years. Again, we're not talking career here. Bench clearly peaked better than Piazza. You can cry all you want that a .638 SLG is sooo much better than .587 SLG, but when you bat .362 it's hard NOT to have above .600 SLG. Yet, in those peak years for each, Bench still had significantly more 2B's, 3B's, HR's, and RBI's. Piazza had more singles, yet u claim he was a better POWER HITTER? You must be joking!Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
You should also factor in offensive postseason performances. I spoke with many baseball pundits and they said yes, Bench was inconsistent during his career offensively, but all agreed on one thing: he was "clutch in the postseason".
Some examples: "In 1972, he was MVP again and hit a home run to lead off the bottom of the ninth inning in Game 5 of the NLCS. It tied the score with the Pirates and the Reds added another run that inning to win the game and the pennant. "
To get a better understanding of this:The whole scene is too ridiculous even to comprehend: Bench, facing an 0-2 count and his team down 3-2. Bench, who in the second inning had told Rose, "I hope I come up in the ninth inning with one man on and us needing a hit, because I know I'll get one." ... Bench, who in the on-deck circle before his fateful at-bat, told Joe Morgan, "I'm taking him to right field," even though Bench hardly ever hit to right field; he knew in his gut that Pittsburgh Pirates closer Dave Giusti would try to get him out with his palm ball away. ... Bench, who nodded and smiled when his mother walked down to the railing to signal him to hit a home run ("I knew I was going to hit one out," Bench later said. "I had that feeling.").
In 1973, the Reds squared off against the New York Mets in the NL Playoffs. In the opening game, Tom Seaver took a 1-1 tie into the bottom of the ninth in Cincinnati. Bench blasted a home run off the future Hall of Famer and the Reds won 2-1.
The 1975 World Series is regarded by many as the greatest ever played. In Game Two, in the bottom of the ninth inning with his team trailing the Red Sox 2-1, Bench doubled off Bill Lee and scored the tying run. The Reds went on to win the game 3-2, and ultimately the series. Even though Bench batted just .207 in the series, three of his six hits were for extra bases, and he drove in four runs.
The 1976 post-season truly belonged to Johnny Bench. In the playoffs against the Philadelphia Phillies he batted .333 in the three-game sweep. In the final game, with the Phils clinging to a 6-5 lead, Bench homered off Ron Reed to tie the score, paving the way to victory. In the World Series, Bench performed as well as any batter in history, collecting eight hits (four for extra-bases) in the four-game sweep of the New York Yankees. He batted .533 and hit two homers with six RBI. In Game Four, he hit a three-run blast in the top of the ninth to clinch the game and the series.
Coming through under pressure is something that I don't think Mike Piazza has done... yes it's a small sample size (Piazza only has 22 at bats), but when it was all on the line, what did he do? Did he do or die? Some players never even get to see a World Series, yet Piazza played in one in his prime. Bench was 1976 World Series MVP, mainly for his offense, and batted .533 in 13 at bats in a sweep of the New York Yankees and the late great Thurman Munson. Said Munson after the WS about Bench: "The man deserves all the credit in the world".
Some other stats: Bench joined the Reds late in the 1967 season and became a starter in 1968, when he set records for a catcher by playing in 154 games and hitting 40 doubles. (He was named the league's rookie of the year.) Did Piazza ever set the rookie record for 2B in his first year? Did he ever hit 40 doubles EVER? No, his high was 33 in 1997; Bench has hit 34, 35, 38, and 39 in comparison he was clearly a better doubles hitter. What about triples? Bench has 24 career, and Piazza 6, with Bench having 4,3,3 in triples and Piazza having 2,2,1 (I highly doubt Piazza will surpass him overall in this category cumulatively). On the other hand, Piazza has a season of over 200 hits and Bench doesn't.
In summary, I think your statement that Piazza "peaked" better than Bench is total BS. Bench has higher doubles, triples, HR's, and RBI totals amassed in his best years. Bench set the rookie record for 40 2B's as a catcher, a total that Piazza never reached in his whole CAREER (33 was his high). Bench led the league in HR's twice, RBI's 3X, led in Total Bases once (the ONLY time a catcher has EVER led the league in Total Bases!), things Piazza has never even done once. Bench has hit 45 HR's as a season high, something Piazza has never done (his high was 40). Piazza has only beaten Bench's high SLG% of .587 twice in his career with .638 (Piazza batted .362 this year) and .614 (he batted .324 this year), and this is only because SLG% is highly dependent upon BA which he does better than Bench (I didn't count the years Piazza played 109 and 112 games b/c that is not a FULL SEASON). Bench batted .533 as the World Series MVP, had 2HR's in game 4. Piazza batted .273 in the WS when it counted IN HIS PRIME, PEAK YEAR.
Given Piazza's average offensive stats in doubles, triples, and HR's it's absurd to say that he peaked better than Bench. He only beat Bench's best SLG% twice, which is hardly anything to brag about. Whine about at bats all you want, but shouldn't Piazza have beaten Bench in all offensive categories since he plays in a hitter's era? And what about Piazza's postseason performance when it counted (offensively). When it was his time to shine, he choked. Bench won it all with his bat, and was deemed WS MVP b/c of it, the highest offensive honor a player could receive. Bench also has proved many other times that he is clutch: when his team needed a hit, he responded. Bench clearly "peaked" better than Piazza offensively, although Piazza was more consistent throughout his career (avg/slg wise).
You can state some strange fact about Bench's career (40 rookie doubles?) and NL ROY award (like Piazza) just like you can do the same about any other player.
If you look at overall offensive production, then Piazza's peak was better. You can pick out any single number and say 'This guy has more whatever'...but that doesn't really tell us much. However, you couldn't do that for any comprehensive statistic that looks at more than one single factor. Piazza had a higher batting average (which I hate looking at), SLG, OBP, OPS, OPS+, RC, EQA.
How are more doubles and triples hit by Bench "strange facts"? They are offensive stats and completely relevant to the discussion at hand. If Piazza is so much better peak wise, why doesn't he hold the record by a catcher for total bases in a season (especially with 2 seasons higher in SLG%)? Why doesn't Piazza ever come close in doubles, triples, HR's, or RBI in a hitter's era (Piazza also didn't lead MLB in these categories either)? These are hardly "strange facts", but the core of offensive power numbers. We already know that Piazza peaked with more base hits in his best years than Bench, which explains why his OBP and SLG are higher than Bench. But Bench is still superior in 2B, 3B, HR, and RBI totals during his peak years. The only 2 things he lost to Piazza were in avg and singles.
You also didn't factor Bench's clutch offensive postseason performances into the equation. He won the WS MVP for his offense. He has hit 4 game tying or winning HR's in the Postseason. Piazza didn't do squat in the postseason, and he was in his "peak", just like Bench, when the opportunity arose.
In summary, my feelings are best summed up as: Bench was superior in extra basehit raw numbers, RBI's, and postseason offensive clutch performance in "peak" years. Piazza was superior in singles and avg, which = higher SLG (by not much) and higher OBP. I don't think you can base Piazza's higher amount of hits and higher avg in peak years as justification that he "peaked" better offensively than Bench. It's simply a false statement when you look at the whole equation. Over their careers, I think Piazza was more consistent than Bench in almost everything, but you can't say that he peaked better.
Let me ask you a question. If I give you the following:
PlayerA:
HR: 48
RBI: 115
PlayerB:
HR: 46
RBI: 110
Who is better? People that only look at HRs and RBIs mainly, which is what you guys are basically using to show Bench is better than Piazza, would say that they're about equal. I would say that you can't tell anything really from these - we need a hell of a lot more information.
Now if I give you the following from the same players for the same seasons referenced above:
PlayerA:
OBP: .343
SLG: .613
PlayerB:
OBP: .582
SLG: .799
I don't need any other information to say who is better here. The separation is so enormous that there's no doubt in my mind as to who is better. I would say that PlayerB is CLEARLY far far far damn damn far superior to PlayerA. Wouldn't you? I hope you would because PlayerA is Dave Kingman in his best season and PlayerB is Barry Bonds in what some people consider as the best hitter's season of all time.
That's why only looking at HRs or RBIs tells you nothing. At least OBP and SLG take into many more factors into account and are rate based. Raw numbers don't tell you much - you'll need to look at everything instead with relation to at bats.
I'm not pimping average. It's a horribly overrated 'statistic'.
No, that example was to show you how stating random counting statistics don't even tell us near the whole story.
No, Piazza clearly peaked over Bench. It's clear if you look at any statistic that is more of a measure of total offensive production. Again, your stating random numbers doesn't tell us the whole picture...like Bench having about 10% total more at bats than Piazza, Piazza playing his home games in extreme pitcher's parks, and for Bench - th era. Anyone that knows anything about baseball statistics would know that Piazza had a better peak than Bench and a better hitting career so far. If you want to cry that I'm wrong, then that's fine now. It's pretty obvious that you don't really care for the statistical analysis in baseball.
Runs scored? Mike Piazza isn't a leadoff hitter, nor does he have a Mike-Piazza-quality hitter batting behind him in the 6 or 7 spot in the lineup to drive him in. I don't expect him or Johnny Bench to lead the league in runs scored. I doubt that you do either.Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
I don't understand you. If you think runs are the most important thing, why don't you look at runs ?
Piazza beats Bench in peak SLG% when compared to their respective peers, and he slaughters him in career SLG% when compared to league averages.As I said, I think a better stat might be slugging percnetage added together with the components of OBP that don't include batting average, which would mostly be walks. That still wouldn't give the whole picture, but it would be better than OPS.
Piazza's vastly, immensely better batting average favors him to deliver more hits than Bench in any situation. Piazza is flat out a great hitter who delivers a lot of hits, among active players he has one of the best career batting averages. I don't even know if they compiled enough situational data in Bench's era to look at the RBI opportunities. I already pointed out the significant difference in teammate's OBP between the two, and if you specifically look at the gaudy OBP of the 1,2,3 hitters in the Reds' classic lineups, the discrepancy between their teams is much bigger. If you have a better way of expressing the opportunities to drive in runs, then fire away.To be even better it would need to include RBIs/RBI opportunities, and decrease the bonus for triples, as I don't think triples are all that significant. And increase the bonus for home runs.
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"So that leads you to completely ignore OBP, huh?"
Hardly. If you go back and read my earlier post I said that the two commonly used statistics I think are most important are OBP and RBIs.
It is precisely because I think OBP is important that I don't like OPS, because it overemphasizes BA over everything else, as I pointed out.
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"and all other crazy things that I simply cannot back up whatsoever! "
You accuse me of not backing up my opinion, which is false. You just don't like what I back it up with. Those are two different things.
Bench has two MVP awards. You think he got those because of his defensive skills ? Who is being ridiculous ?
You base everything on OPS, but say you think BA is overrated ? As I pointed out OPS values BA above everything !
Who is being ridiculous ?
You're NOT pimping avg now? LMAO, yet you're pimping OPS? What % of OPS consists of BA?
Since Piazza had significantly more singles than Bench, BA is factored into SLG heavily.
You can whine about the extra at bats Bench had, but Piazza, if that much better in his peak, should have easily made up the difference in a hitter's era (Bench only played 6 games more and had 50 more AB's). Also, you can't prove that Piazza would have even hit in those 50 AB's, it's pure speculation. He could have just as easily gone into a slump as gotten the hits.
Last but not least, you whine that Piazza hit in a pitcher's park in a hitter's era, please spare me the excuses! I've seen Piazza hit over 400 ft blasts, that is no excuse... why hasn't Piazza hit as many 2B's or 3B's as Bench? Maybe it's because he's a slow baserunner?? He gets the hits, but not as many are extra basehits in comparison to Bench, why is that? With all offensive stats up on avg in this era, Piazza should have destroyed Bench regardless of what park he plays in. To prove this, look up extra base hits hit at Shea Stadium from 1975 to present. Guaranteed the graph has an upward slope.
I think you're aware how critical OBP is, and Piazza's tremendous advantage over Bench in that department is right there in black & white. That's why I'm sure ANY accurate sabermetric method of estimating offensive value is going to give the edge to Piazza, because OBP figures heavily in all of them. And your suggestion for de-emphasis on triples and emphasis on HR favors Piazza even more over Bench.