Carmack: "PS3 = PITA"

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finbarqs

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2005
3,617
2
81
Originally posted by: DarkKnight
Originally posted by: joshsquall
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

You are talking about how the 7800 beat the NES?

Or how the Genesis beat the SNES?

Or how the Saturn beat the PSX?

Or when the DreamCast whipped the PS2?

I would probably drop your Sega generations down one. NES - Genesis. Saturn - SNES. DC - PSX. Nothing - PS2.


I think u have ur generations wrong there.

its

NES, Sega Master system?
Genesis SNES
Saturn PSX N64
DC, PS2, XBOX and GC

there maybe other systems in there, but i think the Sega, Nintendo, and Sony ones were the biggest.


actually, if you really look at overall sales,

Genesis > SNES. It sold more than the SNES why? because of EA sports games (madden). Overall, the Genesis had more marketshare than SNES because of the early entry. On top of that, the Genesis also had a FASTER processor than the SNES. However, the SNES had a larger color palette and a proven sound chip while sega stuck with their familiar "yamaha" brand. In the end however, deveopers to start understanding and figuring out how to finally push out better sound with comparable color to the SNES. But oh well, that was a few generations ago. Saturn ultimately did better than the PS in Japan thanks to it's Street Fighter Franchise that were better than the PS.

Problem lies here was that SEGA of America was dumb enough not to bring those games to the US. In fact, SEGA of America sucked so much that they released 2 editions of the saturn, one with the huge bulky controller, 2nd with the sleek 6 button designed for SF games that eventually made it's way to the US market (which by many considered those controllers to be the BEST street fighter controllers next to an arcade joystick). However, SEGA went the PS2-3 route with the Saturn, giving it 4 processors. That's right 4 processors. 3rd party developers were having the worse time coding for the system while SEGA pushed out games like VF2 (which looked amazingly close to the arcade MODEL-2 minus some objects) and eventually radiant silvergun (BEST Shooter IMO). Radiant Silvergun led to the new Ikaruga (which i still think Radiant Silvergun is still better) but they pushed massive poly's more so than the PS can dream of. However, because of it's difficulty of programming/developing for the console, 3rd party developers all left to the PS because they can produce similar graphics there with much more ease.

Dreamcast was born because of the PS, thinking that all it needed was ease of development. Of course, EA was upset at SEGA because of their own internal development team VC making NBA and NFL games. EA left, and went to Sony as a punishment despite the fact that Sony had 989 and other teams. (though 2nd party).

Anyways, this competition is no easy feat, and now it comes down to Sony and Microsoft. Rumor has it that even MS removed the HDD from their console.

Also, the power of the CPU's aren't even all that great. In fact, it's not even comparable to the AMD64's or the Intel P-D's. Remember the article that Anand took down discussing how the developers are complaining about the CPU's being "in-efficient" and "you get what you pay for" on the CPU side of things.
 

SneakyStuff

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2004
4,294
0
76
Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
Its kinda a 2 edged sword . ya its harder but sony is going to be way ahead of the game when Cell really does take off. My advice buy Sony stock.

Great! We have a 13 year old inexperienced stock broker providing us free financial advice.

So I wasn't supposed to do that?... >_<
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,938
6
81
Originally posted by: SneakyStuff
Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
Its kinda a 2 edged sword . ya its harder but sony is going to be way ahead of the game when Cell really does take off. My advice buy Sony stock.

Great! We have a 13 year old inexperienced stock broker providing us free financial advice.

So I wasn't supposed to do that?... >_<

When Cell type technology is ready to really take off, it will be different and AMD/Intel will have competing, similar technologies (ie: multicore/multipurpose cores and specialist cores), as it's on their roadmaps anyway.
It's a case of "too soon" IMO. A bit like 64 bit extensions, they were fairly useless for a fair while for the mainstream, until 64 bit Windows and new applications were made to use them. Intel kind of called it right in not adding x86-64 until it was needed (for the mainstream markets)
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Originally posted by: DrZoidberg
I think if rumours of ps3 hard disc being optional then it would be harder to program cause no swap file, reading game data from dvds/blue ray is slower than hard disc.

Xbox360 is more similar to PC then PS3 is, id software mainly does pc games so it would be easier for them.

Then again PS2 won eventhough it was harder to program than xbox. But this generation will be different, game companies know Microsoft are now reputable game console company while before xbox they didnt know what to expect.

PS2 won what?

In sales?

 

touchmyichi

Golden Member
May 26, 2002
1,774
0
76
Originally posted by: finbarqs
Originally posted by: DarkKnight
Originally posted by: joshsquall
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

You are talking about how the 7800 beat the NES?

Or how the Genesis beat the SNES?

Or how the Saturn beat the PSX?

Or when the DreamCast whipped the PS2?

I would probably drop your Sega generations down one. NES - Genesis. Saturn - SNES. DC - PSX. Nothing - PS2.


I think u have ur generations wrong there.

its

NES, Sega Master system?
Genesis SNES
Saturn PSX N64
DC, PS2, XBOX and GC

there maybe other systems in there, but i think the Sega, Nintendo, and Sony ones were the biggest.


actually, if you really look at overall sales,

Genesis > SNES. It sold more than the SNES why? because of EA sports games (madden). Overall, the Genesis had more marketshare than SNES because of the early entry. On top of that, the Genesis also had a FASTER processor than the SNES. However, the SNES had a larger color palette and a proven sound chip while sega stuck with their familiar "yamaha" brand. In the end however, deveopers to start understanding and figuring out how to finally push out better sound with comparable color to the SNES. But oh well, that was a few generations ago. Saturn ultimately did better than the PS in Japan thanks to it's Street Fighter Franchise that were better than the PS.

Problem lies here was that SEGA of America was dumb enough not to bring those games to the US. In fact, SEGA of America sucked so much that they released 2 editions of the saturn, one with the huge bulky controller, 2nd with the sleek 6 button designed for SF games that eventually made it's way to the US market (which by many considered those controllers to be the BEST street fighter controllers next to an arcade joystick). However, SEGA went the PS2-3 route with the Saturn, giving it 4 processors. That's right 4 processors. 3rd party developers were having the worse time coding for the system while SEGA pushed out games like VF2 (which looked amazingly close to the arcade MODEL-2 minus some objects) and eventually radiant silvergun (BEST Shooter IMO). Radiant Silvergun led to the new Ikaruga (which i still think Radiant Silvergun is still better) but they pushed massive poly's more so than the PS can dream of. However, because of it's difficulty of programming/developing for the console, 3rd party developers all left to the PS because they can produce similar graphics there with much more ease.

Dreamcast was born because of the PS, thinking that all it needed was ease of development. Of course, EA was upset at SEGA because of their own internal development team VC making NBA and NFL games. EA left, and went to Sony as a punishment despite the fact that Sony had 989 and other teams. (though 2nd party).

Anyways, this competition is no easy feat, and now it comes down to Sony and Microsoft. Rumor has it that even MS removed the HDD from their console.

Also, the power of the CPU's aren't even all that great. In fact, it's not even comparable to the AMD64's or the Intel P-D's. Remember the article that Anand took down discussing how the developers are complaining about the CPU's being "in-efficient" and "you get what you pay for" on the CPU side of things.

You're quite wrong on the sega genesis. Taken from wikipedia.com- "In Japan, the Super Famicom easily outsold its chief rival, the Mega Drive, and Nintendo retained control over approximately 80% of the Japanese console market." And for America, "By the end of the 16-bit era, the SNES had sold twice as many units as the Sega Genesis." SNES had a landslide in the console market, Nintendo absolutely dominated until playstation.

 

ssvegeta1010

Platinum Member
Nov 13, 2004
2,192
0
0
Originally posted by: touchmyichi
Originally posted by: finbarqs
snip

You're quite wrong on the sega genesis. Taken from wikipedia.com- "In Japan, the Super Famicom easily outsold its chief rival, the Mega Drive, and Nintendo retained control over approximately 80% of the Japanese console market." And for America, "By the end of the 16-bit era, the SNES had sold twice as many units as the Sega Genesis." SNES had a landslide in the console market, Nintendo absolutely dominated until playstation.

True.

 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
7
81
I'd like to point out....
NES - released 1982 in Japan, 1985/86 in America.
Master System- Released in 1986/87?
NES outsold Master System 10 to 1.

Genesis - 1989
SNES - 1991
Worldwide, SNES outsold Genesis by like 10%, but Genesis outsold SNES in America.

Saturn - 1995
PSX - 1995
N64 - 1996
Saturn did well initially, then died out, N64 led in sales up till about 1998 when it was surpassed by the PSX, and I think wasn't surpassed by the PSX in America until late 1999/early 2000. Worldwide, PSX sold about 3x the N64 and 11-12x the Saturn.


Dreamcast - 1998
Sold slightly better than Saturn overall.

PS2 - 2000
Gamecube/Xbox - 2001
PS2 has sold about 4x Xbox or Gamecube.
 

mindgam3

Member
May 30, 2005
166
0
0
Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Originally posted by: michaelpatrick33
Didn't Carmack criticize both Microsoft and Sony for using the processors they are using? It is interesting but having a lead game programmer such as Carmack come out and say what he did is a pretty big coup in the marketing FUD that is XBOX 360 and PS3.

As did Anand, although the article was pulled from the site almost immediately. From what I remember, it was said that the Xbox 360's CPU would be roughly twice as powerful as the current Xbox's CPU. That puts it behind PC processors from 3 years ago. The good news is that the GPU will be pretty powerful. Just look what developers have been able to do with the GPU in the original Xbox which is basically a GeForce 3. Games like Forza running on a 733 MHz Pentium 3 with a GeForce 3 video card and only 64 MB of RAM... that's pretty amazing.

I was looking for that article not that long ago.. i wonder why it was pulled?

 

mwmorph

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2004
8,877
1
81
Originally posted by: mindgam3
Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Originally posted by: michaelpatrick33
Didn't Carmack criticize both Microsoft and Sony for using the processors they are using? It is interesting but having a lead game programmer such as Carmack come out and say what he did is a pretty big coup in the marketing FUD that is XBOX 360 and PS3.

As did Anand, although the article was pulled from the site almost immediately. From what I remember, it was said that the Xbox 360's CPU would be roughly twice as powerful as the current Xbox's CPU. That puts it behind PC processors from 3 years ago. The good news is that the GPU will be pretty powerful. Just look what developers have been able to do with the GPU in the original Xbox which is basically a GeForce 3. Games like Forza running on a 733 MHz Pentium 3 with a GeForce 3 video card and only 64 MB of RAM... that's pretty amazing.

I was looking for that article not that long ago.. i wonder why it was pulled?


something about not revealing sources.
 

piroroadkill

Senior member
Sep 27, 2004
731
0
0
Who cares, the Dreamcast is better than any console ever.

Sweet sweet Dreamcast.

I'll be buying an Xbox360 next.
 

mindgam3

Member
May 30, 2005
166
0
0
Originally posted by: joshsquall
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

You are talking about how the 7800 beat the NES?

Or how the Genesis beat the SNES?

Or how the Saturn beat the PSX?

Or when the DreamCast whipped the PS2?

I would probably drop your Sega generations down one. NES - Genesis. Saturn - SNES. DC - PSX. Nothing - PS2.


That comparison is WAY off man.. Saturn vs snes ?? It was most definatly gear against the psx.. as was the genesis vs the snes not the nes man .
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
i find it funny that when gabe newell and john carmack, 2 of the best programmers in the industry that have both made beautiful and efficient engines, criticize the next gen consoles, console fanboys call them both lazy developers

I would certainly say that Newell hasn't proven he is close to one of the best programmers in the industry- not remotely close for that matter. Valve is loaded with coders- when Newell himself was more closely involved in that level of development Valve was licensing Carmack's engine. Besides that though- Neither Newell nor Carmack went and made the absurd statement that the new consoles processors were only twice as fast as a P3 733- in fact Carmack stated nothing remotely like that. We made mention that they were far more complex to develop for, but offered those that were capable of doing it were likely to make titles far better then the launch round offerings.

BTW- Carmack's lead development platform is no longer the PC- it is the XB360.

Genesis > SNES

Wrong. The SNES throttled the Genesis world wide. The Genesis did relatively well in the West, particularly in the US, but on a global basis it was easily whipped by the SNES.

I'd like to point out....
NES - released 1982 in Japan, 1985/86 in America.
Master System- Released in 1986/87?
NES outsold Master System 10 to 1.

You left out Atari. I was wrong listing the 7800, should have listed off the 5200 as that launched some time prior to the 7800(which didn't end up shipping until after the NES).

Genesis - 1989
SNES - 1991
Worldwide, SNES outsold Genesis by like 10%, but Genesis outsold SNES in America.

I don't recall sales being that close, have to dig up some numbers.

Saturn - 1995
PSX - 1995
N64 - 1996
Saturn did well initially, then died out, N64 led in sales up till about 1998 when it was surpassed by the PSX, and I think wasn't surpassed by the PSX in America until late 1999/early 2000. Worldwide, PSX sold about 3x the N64 and 11-12x the Saturn.

No, the PSX outsold the N64 outside of the narrow launch window until the end of the generation. Also, I forgot to mention the 3DO in that generation- also shipping prior to the PSX and also lost the round.

Dreamcast - 1998
Sold slightly better than Saturn overall.

PS2 - 2000
Gamecube/Xbox - 2001
PS2 has sold about 4x Xbox or Gamecube.

Why chop up this generation? The PS2 hit in '99 in Japan- not that far behind the DC's launch.
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,504
2
81
Someone please clarify for me...did someone on AT say this? "I don't think Carmack is qualified at this point having never used either"

Did someone also say that he shouldn't become a console programmer?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say if you asked any software company in the world that if they could pick one programmer to design a 3d game engine for them, Carmack would get the majority of the votes...

Anyone not a peer of his, ie everyone here, has no leg to stand on in criticizing what he says about next gen consoles, video cards, etc, etc...
 

eastvillager

Senior member
Mar 27, 2003
519
0
0
buy sony stock? hehehe, BAHAHAHAHA, omg that is funny stuff.

The consumer electronics industry has left Sony and its premium prices behind. The Internet has pretty much put a stake through the heart of blind brand loyalty, as well. Multiple free reviews of just about any product are only a search away, and the reviews/tests often show that there isn't any reason to be paying the sony premium. They need to continue restructuring that division until it is lean and mean. Pick a few key areas and dominate them with superior technology.
 

ronnn

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
3,918
0
71
And I thought John Carmack was a shill that took Nvidia's money. Totally wrong as it is a known fact that ms wouldn't stoop so low as to use misleading advertising. :Q
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
WTF would the PS3 be harder to code for? Don't they use the same basic 3.2 GHZ core? Its just that the Xbox uses 3x the core, while sony uses 8 little core and the same exact big one that the Xbox uses........ Shouldn'y they be the same tocode for in terms of single threaded games?
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
11
81
Originally posted by: Hacp
WTF would the PS3 be harder to code for? Don't they use the same basic 3.2 GHZ core? Its just that the Xbox uses 3x the core, while sony uses 8 little core and the same exact big one that the Xbox uses........ Shouldn'y they be the same tocode for in terms of single threaded games?

Absolutely not. The Cell is nothing like IBM's 3 core CPU.

Writing games that are multithreaded is the hard part. There's a news article on the main page about an interview with Gabe Newell (HL/HL2 creator) and his comments on writing multithreaded games.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
As I stated, the main core of the PS3 is similar to one of the cores of the Xbox360.. FOr single threaded games, it would be almost the same to code for wouldn't it?
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
11
81
Originally posted by: Hacp
As I stated, the main core of the PS3 is similar to one of the cores of the Xbox360.. FOr single threaded games, it would be almost the same to code for wouldn't it?

It's similar in function, not architecture from what I understand.
 

funks

Golden Member
Nov 9, 2000
1,402
44
91
alot of people bought the PS2 because it had a DVD player (compared to the Dreamcast)..

If blue ray is indeed the next generation format, consumers might buy it as it kills two birds with one stone.
 

coomar

Banned
Apr 4, 2005
2,431
0
0
but dvd players are what 50 bucks now and the console is debuting 50 bucks more than the xbox360

though when I bought the ps2, the fact it was a high quality dvd player crossed my mind
 
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