Carmack speaks on Hl2

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Nebor
I'm not against nvidia. Nor am I against ATI.

I don't feel that either of them offer an adequate DX9 solution, and I feel that nvidia offers a better DX8 solution.

I don't think Nvidia has done anything horribly wrong.

People are overreacting, they're dorks.

I wish Sapphire made a 5900 'Ultimate'. My computer is loud enough.

Oooooooooooook. Time for bed...this banter is useless

 

[Nebor]

Oooooooooooook. Time for bed...this banter is useless

Of course it is. We won't know anything until HL2 comes out.

 

[lameaway]

Am I reading the same quote as the rest of you guys? Carmack basically states that the FX is far slower than the Radeon running default DX9 shader code, but becomes competitive if the code is customized to run with lower precision. Obviously this isn't optimal, but it's a hell of a lot better than getting 20fps at 32-bit.

My problem with Valve is that, rather than make that compromise, they hardheadedly have the card do something it essentially can't do and let it get beat up in the benchmarks. Then, when NVidia releases a driver to forcibly set the precision lower, they bitch and moan and don't want anyone to use it. WTF? I agree that the FX architecture was poorly conceived and incompatible with industry standards, but that Valve is unwilling to bend an inch to facilitate a better overall experience for FX owners makes me think that they perhaps aren't focused exclusively on their game and their customers, but have some sort of ulterior motive behind their stubbornness. When you consider their tight business relationship with ATI, such an ulterior motive isn't so hard to imagine. This is pretty much the same thing I said the other week.

So really, what does Carmack confirm here? That the FX shader architecture clashes with DX9? Yes. That this is generally a bad thing? Yes. That it can be worked around? Yes. That NVidia is somehow doomed? No, not really.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: lameaway
Am I reading the same quote as the rest of you guys? Carmack basically states that the FX is far slower than the Radeon running default DX9 shader code, but becomes competitive if the code is customized to run with lower precision. Obviously this isn't optimal, but it's a hell of a lot better than getting 20fps at 32-bit.

My problem with Valve is that, rather than make that compromise, they hardheadedly have the card do something it essentially can't do and let it get beat up in the benchmarks. Then, when NVidia releases a driver to forcibly set the precision lower, they bitch and moan and don't want anyone to use it. WTF? I agree that the FX architecture was poorly conceived and incompatible with industry standards, but that Valve is unwilling to bend an inch to facilitate a better overall experience for FX owners makes me think that they perhaps aren't focused exclusively on their game and their customers, but have some sort of ulterior motive behind their stubbornness. When you consider their tight business relationship with ATI, such an ulterior motive isn't so hard to imagine. This is pretty much the same thing I said the other week.

So really, what does Carmack confirm here? That the FX shader architecture clashes with DX9? Yes. That this is generally a bad thing? Yes. That it can be worked around? Yes. That NVidia is somehow doomed? No, not really.

did you read the benchmark pages? valve did exactly what carmack did, build a custom lower precision code path for nvidia. spending 5x time on it as ati. if thats something to complain about i dunno what can be done.

 

[Bagheera]

lameaway: Please read the HL2 performance preview; it's well avialable on Anadtech's video section. Valve spent 5X as much time specializing in NV3X codepath over the standard DX9 path. It makes marketing sense because most people still have NV cards.

But developers don't deserve to go through all these troubles "specializing" pathways. it's ridiculous, and all the wasted time translate into higher game prices. And when people whine about games being to expensive, it'll be NV's fault.

 

[Vonkhan]

these nVIDIOTs are driving me nuts!!!

1. nVIDIA did NOT build the Fx series according to DX9 specs

2. 32, 24, 16 bit - who cares if nVIDIA ihhas 32-bit, if u CANT USE IT ... whadda hell do u wanna do with it then? You need to get to work in a rush, ur choice of ride: a Jaguar that runs at a max of 35mph because of an engine problem pr a Geo Metro that hits 60mph w/o any problem ... which one do u chose?

3. nVIDIA's been caught cheating so many times, it aint even news no more!

4. DX9 is the future. so dont try to pull that "DX8 games are more this n that" crap

The best punishment for being a nVIDIOT is just that! ... and being stuck with a sub-standard video card.

I guess if I was stuck with a $500 POS, which gets its azz kiked by a $150 card, I'd be pretty hostile too!

Gentlemen, the For Sale/ Trade forum awaits you & your card!

 

[Nebor]

Gentlemen, the For Sale/ Trade forum awaits you & your card!

And I'll be waiting there to buy the card from you at a huge loss. You'll deserve it to, you panicked and sold your card because of what one of ATI's partners told you.

I'll be buying a GFX5900 Ultra within the next few weeks.

 

[Alkali]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Gentlemen, the For Sale/ Trade forum awaits you & your card!

And I'll be waiting there to buy the card from you at a huge loss. You'll deserve it to, you panicked and sold your card because of what one of ATI's partners told you.

I'll be buying a GFX5900 Ultra within the next few weeks.

Nebor, you really ought to wait for the next nVidia cards, they are likely to sort out this mess with shaders and make the cards a lot faster than that 5900Ultra.

 

[Alkali]

Originally posted by: virtualgames0
and?
nvidia is still running on 32bit precision.. while ati is doing 24bit..
how do you make an apples to apples comparison like that?
while when you run nvidia on 16bit precision.. you guys start saying nvidia' 16bit is illegitimate..

The reason you can make an apples to apples comparison is because there is a standard (ie. DX9 codepath). Both types of cards should be able to run with that codepath, and a comparison should be made. You can't say that you can't make a comparison, or we would have no benchmarks. All graphics card makers make graphics cards in different ways, but you still need a standard (DX9 codepath) that will show you their performance.

Normally, if a card is slower its because its at higher precision, and thats fine, it just means they need a new one. The only reason everyone has a problem with what is going on is because nVidia allows 16 and 12 bit precison. Everyone agrees it lowers IQ, but now, because nVidia don't want to roll out a new card sooner, we are stuck with that low precision.

Personally, if I had an nVidia 5900Ultra, I would not run it in mixed path, I would put up with low frame-rates, and run pure DX9 codepath.

 

[nRollo]

Personally, if I had an nVidia 5900Ultra, I would not run it in mixed path, I would put up with low frame-rates, and run pure DX9 codepath.

LOL, this is a hilarious thread.
Wouldn't ANYONE rather have jerky, unrealistic animation with more realistic water?!

Sure you would.

A lot of you are NUTS. Vonkham, when I get HL2 I'm going to run it at DX 9 and DX8.1, check out the difference, and come back here and laugh much at all the impassioned speeches you and others have made about this "way of the future". What a joke. I have 43 computer games, know how many DX9 games I'll own at
the end of this year? Probably ONE. So how much sense does it make to buy a video card for ONE game? One game that you could run perfectly fine in DX 8.1? Not much to me.
Will there be more DX9 games next year? Yep. Will I buy more video cards next year? Yep.

I have been a computer gamer for 15 years. If I've learned in that time is the only thing "buying for future games" gets you is broke. Know why? Because by the time the future games come out, new hardware that runs them twice as well comes out also.

People who buy 5900s aren't "stupid" they simply have a different preference than you. Even if HL2 was out right now, which it ISN'T, the 5900s are good cards because they offer great gaming performance on every single game out there except HL2.

Are you people too dense to realize that "Shader Day" was just a marketing ploy by ATI to sell ATI cards? I don't have any problem with the logic "I don't buy many video cards, so if I'm going to be playing the DX 9 games in DX9 next year, I need an ATI card" but anyone buying 9800Pros and 5900Us probably buys video cards as the need arises. If you can afford a $400 video card, you can probably afford two.

Last but not least, I don't think I'd listen to this guy Gabe if he told me "Air is good to breathe".
This is NOT the "man" who is going to tell me the "way of the future"
This guy obviously has some serious issues. You don't get to look like that without a serious death wish.

 

[oldfart]

RolloYou are oversimplifying it.

You dont know what the differences between DX8.1, and DX9 modes will be. Neither does anyone else that hasn't played the game. We know almost nothing about the game so far. Why people think they can judge the difference with a couple of lousy screenshots showing a wall and some water is beyond me. It's not just some water effects. Why not wait for the game or at least a demo to be released before fluffing off DX9 as a joke?

Yeah, you are correct. A 5800/5900 and most any other card can play DX 8.1 games fine. So can a 9700/9800 card. The difference is they are the only current class of cards that can play DX9 games (well). So, you have a choice of card A that can play todays games beautifully, or card B that can play todays and tomorrows games beautifully. You can buy both of them for ~ the same price. What incentive is there to buy a card with less capability for the same price? Can't see why anyone would want to do that.

Not everyone wants to buy 3 new video cards a year. Some people like to get as much mileage out of their investment as they can. If you bought a 9700 a year ago, you are sill in better shape than someone buying a 5900 today.

Add in all the reduced quality cheat drivers, of late and it is pretty obvious why the tide has turned towards ATi cards. When nVidia releases a new GPU that can truly deliver acceptable performance and quality in next generation games, it may well go back towards them.

 

[OmegaRedd]

Hl2 will be the most advanced game ever released (so far). The reason everybody is making a big stink about it is because hl one is still popular today counter strike anyone (who doesn't play cs). This is a big deal and long after people stop playing d3 they WILL still be playing hl2. The diffrence is any patch being released could break the fx's special path not to mention mods. I buy the best card for the games I like to play and hl2 is a game most pc users have been pleading for. It's not a big deal if you dont want to play hl2 with full iq then keep your gf4 and save alot of money. If you have money to waste Go here (shameless plug) (steps off soapbox)

 

[OmegaRedd]

Originally posted by: OmegaRedd
Hl2 will be the most advanced game ever released (so far). The reason everybody is making a big stink about it is because hl one is still popular today counter strike anyone (who doesn't play cs). This is a big deal and long after people stop playing d3 they WILL still be playing hl2. The diffrence is any patch being released could break the fx's special path not to mention mods. I buy the best card for the games I like to play and hl2 is a game most pc users have been pleading for. It's not a big deal if you dont want to play hl2 with full iq then keep your gf4 and save alot of money. If you have money to waste Go here (shameless plug) (steps off soapbox)

p.s. the demo and screen shots dont have all the effects turned on(hdr major lighting effect). So my guess is that the game will run even slower on the fx. Also it takes along time to develop a gpu from scratch and if I was a betting man then my guess is the nv40 won't be dx9 complient (They would have to throw out the fx design). It will most likely have faster memory with a faster fx tweaked core. Also once you fall behind it's hard to catch up ati was nvidia's b-tch for many years b4 the 9700 and I'm sure they remember all the years of nvidiots laughing at fanATIcs.

 

[nRollo]

Why not wait for the game or at least a demo to be released before fluffing off DX9 as a joke?

I don't consider DX9 "a joke" I just don't consider it a factor in current video card usability. When T/L first came out, how long was it before a couple decent games actually used it? I don't consider 9800Pro performance on HL2 anywhere close to what I'd call "good" at this point, it's more like a choice of which card runs it less crappy?

 

[oldfart]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Why not wait for the game or at least a demo to be released before fluffing off DX9 as a joke?

I don't consider DX9 "a joke" I just don't consider it a factor in current video card usability. When T/L first came out, how long was it before a couple decent games actually used it?

HL2 is the most significant game in years. It will be out very soon. Other DX9 games are also on the way.[/quote]

I don't consider 9800Pro performance on HL2 anywhere close to what I'd call "good" at this point, it's more like a choice of which card runs it less crappy?

That is easy. The 5800/5900 is very crappy. The 9700/9800 is quite good. If you want to play HL2 and other upcoming cames, there is currently nothing better. Sure, that will change in time as it always does. Right now, those are the choices. Most people will choose good over crappy .

 

[nRollo]

HL2 is the most significant game in years. It will be out very soon. Other DX9 games are also on the way.

LOL Hmmm very "significant".....as if ANY video game could have "significance". Geez, old fart, we're just talking about kid's video games here, not changes in the American way of life.
Sure, they're fun to play, but they're no more significant than say, the tv show"SpongeBob Squarepants", a "Spiderman" comic book, or "Monopoly".

Here's how "significant" HL2 is to me:
When it comes out, I'll spend my $50 on it. If I like it, I'll play it a little.

P.S. Please don't email this to Valve, Gabe might jump up and down whereever he's at and shake my wildlife prints off the walls here in Wisconsin.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: oldfart

Originally posted by: Rollo

Why not wait for the game or at least a demo to be released before fluffing off DX9 as a joke?

I don't consider DX9 "a joke" I just don't consider it a factor in current video card usability. When T/L first came out, how long was it before a couple decent games actually used it?

HL2 is the most significant game in years. It will be out very soon. Other DX9 games are also on the way.

I don't consider 9800Pro performance on HL2 anywhere close to what I'd call "good" at this point, it's more like a choice of which card runs it less crappy?

That is easy. The 5800/5900 is very crappy. The 9700/9800 is quite good. If you want to play HL2 and other upcoming cames, there is currently nothing better. Sure, that will change in time as it always does. Right now, those are the choices. Most people will choose good over crappy .[/quote]

i suppose that a game that runs 75fps at 1024x768 using latest tech is slow eh

 

[OmegaRedd]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Why not wait for the game or at least a demo to be released before fluffing off DX9 as a joke?

I don't consider DX9 "a joke" I just don't consider it a factor in current video card usability. When T/L first came out, how long was it before a couple decent games actually used it? I don't consider 9800Pro performance on HL2 anywhere close to what I'd call "good" at this point, it's more like a choice of which card runs it less crappy?

I'm sure the 9800 will run faster in the finished game and also with the new cat 3.8 drivers. This is not t/l and hl2 is a "decent" game using dx9. It's only not a factor if you don't want to play hl2 with full iq. In which case there are plenty " decent " dx8.1 using t/l to play. (insert sarcasm :roll

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: OmegaRedd

Originally posted by: Rollo

Why not wait for the game or at least a demo to be released before fluffing off DX9 as a joke?

I don't consider DX9 "a joke" I just don't consider it a factor in current video card usability. When T/L first came out, how long was it before a couple decent games actually used it? I don't consider 9800Pro performance on HL2 anywhere close to what I'd call "good" at this point, it's more like a choice of which card runs it less crappy?

I'm sure the 9800 will run faster in the finished game and also with the new cat 3.8 drivers. This is not t/l and hl2 is a "decent" game using dx9. It's only not a factor if you don't want to play hl2 with full iq. In which case there are plenty " decent " dx8.1 using t/l to play. (insert sarcasm :roll

If you're sure that the 9800 will run faster in the finished game, then don't you think the 5900 will run faster too?

 

[OmegaRedd]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: OmegaRedd

Originally posted by: Rollo

Why not wait for the game or at least a demo to be released before fluffing off DX9 as a joke?

I don't consider DX9 "a joke" I just don't consider it a factor in current video card usability. When T/L first came out, how long was it before a couple decent games actually used it? I don't consider 9800Pro performance on HL2 anywhere close to what I'd call "good" at this point, it's more like a choice of which card runs it less crappy?

I'm sure the 9800 will run faster in the finished game and also with the new cat 3.8 drivers. This is not t/l and hl2 is a "decent" game using dx9. It's only not a factor if you don't want to play hl2 with full iq. In which case there are plenty " decent " dx8.1 using t/l to play. (insert sarcasm :roll

If you're sure that the 9800 will run faster in the finished game, then don't you think the 5900 will run faster too?

Maybe but with lower iq. If gabe could have done it he would not have been b-itching about nvidia lying to him. I'm sure he would have sucked it up and kept his mouth closed slapped a meant to be played sticker on it and took nvidia's large check to the bank. The game would likely been out already and we would not be talking right now. I'd be asking for your tags and pimping you in counter strike 2 while you cried like a little b-tch.

 

[oldfart]

Originally posted by: Rollo

HL2 is the most significant game in years. It will be out very soon. Other DX9 games are also on the way.

LOL Hmmm very "significant".....as if ANY video game could have "significance". Geez, old fart, we're just talking about kid's video games here, not changes in the American way of life.
Sure, they're fun to play, but they're no more significant than say, the tv show"SpongeBob Squarepants", a "Spiderman" comic book, or "Monopoly".

Here's how "significant" HL2 is to me:
When it comes out, I'll spend my $50 on it. If I like it, I'll play it a little.

P.S. Please don't email this to Valve, Gabe might jump up and down whereever he's at and shake my wildlife prints off the walls here in Wisconsin.

HL2 will be a very significant video game. I never said it would change to world.

You just love to twist words, dont you?

AS FAR AS VIDEO GAMES GO FOR THE PC (does that help?) HL2 will very very big. It will sell many copies, and the engine will be used for other games. It is one of the few games that will tax current generation hardware.

If you care so little about games, image quality and video hardware, why do you waste so much of your time in these threads?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the subject IS about HL2 and video hardware correct?

I also fail to see what making fun of Gabe's appearance has to do with this subject.

 

[yhelothar]

Do you guys even really know what's going on and what nvidia's card's flaws are and what it takes to fix them?
The problem now is nvidia has 4 pipelines with 2 TMUs... it's supposed to push out as many textures as radeon's 8x1..
But it doesn't.. because what's happening now is that pixel shader 2.0 is pushing the pipelines too hard that it can only push out 1TMU per pipeline.. so then the card can only push out half the fillrate/textures as a radeon...

So what nvidia proposed to do in the detonator 50s, is to optimize the pixel shaders, so then it would use both the TMUs... and thus it would use both of the TMUs on the pipeline.

And I don't think everyone agrees that FP16bit looks noticably worse than FP32bit or FP24bit...
there aren't even any screenshots comparing the differences.
What's happening now is that nvidia is letting you choose the quality you want.. since when was that a bad thing?
When 32 bit colors first came out, they halved the performance over 16bit.. this is what's happening now...

 

[OmegaRedd]

Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Do you guys even really know what's going on and what nvidia's card's flaws are and what it takes to fix them?
The problem now is nvidia has 4 pipelines with 2 TMUs... it's supposed to push out as many textures as radeon's 8x1..
But it doesn't.. because what's happening now is that pixel shader 2.0 is pushing the pipelines too hard that it can only push out 1TMU per pipeline.. so then the card can only push out half the fillrate/textures as a radeon...

So what nvidia proposed to do in the detonator 50s, is to optimize the pixel shaders, so then it would use both the TMUs... and thus it would use both of the TMUs on the pipeline.

And I don't think everyone agrees that FP16bit looks noticably worse than FP32bit or FP24bit...
there aren't even any screenshots comparing the differences.
What's happening now is that nvidia is letting you choose the quality you want.. since when was that a bad thing?
When 32 bit colors first came out, they halved the performance over 16bit.. this is what's happening now...

Oh I see your a programmer at valve with the new det 50's and have benched these magic drivers after gabe's press release and now your coming to enlighten all us poor endlosers? ROFL

 

[OmegaRedd]

Originally posted by: Rollo

I'm not saying that they should be exactly the same, but performance would be in the same "ballpark"

And the 8500 competed with the GeForce3 Ti series. The Ti4600 competed with the 9700 Pro.

You're an "ace reporter"? Why should performance be in the same ballpark? Is S3/Intel/Matrox/Trident performance in the same ballpark? But nVidia's should be because you say so and it would be better for them if it was? Like I said, they are competing companies trying to gain a competitive edge, and sometimes they will.

The 9700Pro came out 6 months later than the Ti 4600 and would have competed with the 5800 Ultra if TSMC could have delivered as promised to nVidia. In any case, I don't think you can say an 8 pipeline DX9 card that came out half a year later was ever meant to compete with a 4 pipe Dx8 card. It was meant to compete with the nV30.

So, for those 6 months ATIs best product was half as fast at the best FPS game available at the time. We're in a similar situation now:
If HL2 comes out on 9/30, there will be a 3-6 month period where nVidia will be half as fast as it's competitor. I fail to see the difference?

BTW- it used to be ATI that was months behind the product cycle in performance, genereation after generation.

Even with all cheats disabled, nVidia 5900 Ultras have been basically equal performers at all available games for the last 3 months. HL2 isn't out yet, and 3dmark isn't a game. The difference in performance on any game at up to 4x8X could only be seen by benchmarking as framerates are high and fairly equal. 5900 wins some, 9800 wins some.

You people need to get a grip and a hobby other than pimping ATI cards for free. It doesn't help anyway, they can't seem to earn a dime to save their lives.

This is a hl2 thead and if " pimping " is telling the truth then we are sorry (sarcasm) ROFL

 

[nRollo]

What you guys need to do is get a grip.

DX9 is not going to be some magic fairy dust that will make flat pictures on your monitor suddenly seem like lifesize 3d hallucinations in some virtual reality wonderland.
Some water might look shinier, some smoke puffier, some reflections a bit more realistic- but it's still all going to look like a cartoon, not a movie of real life.

Also, your choice of video card doesn't make you a smarter person entitled to put down fellow ATers because they bought a different video card than you. Like always- LOL& Big Deal. Any shmuck with $350 can buy a Radeon 9800Pro, it doesn't make you part of some elite gaming overlords. (if it helps you understand this, consider that I bought both an ATI 9700Pro and a Sapphire 9800 Pro in the last year, and I'm not exactly Carmack)

I wish I had a 5900Ultra to play with, I'm a gamer who likes to try new hardware, not some ATI kissa$$ suckling at Gabe's pendulous teats.....