Carmack speaks on Hl2

[OmegaRedd]

Originally posted by: Rollo
What you guys need to do is get a grip.

DX9 is not going to be some magic fairy dust that will make flat pictures on your monitor suddenly seem like lifesize 3d hallucinations in some virtual reality wonderland.
Some water might look shinier, some smoke puffier, some reflections a bit more realistic- but it's still all going to look like a cartoon, not a movie of real life.

Also, your choice of video card doesn't make you a smarter person entitled to put down fellow ATers because they bought a different video card than you. Like always- LOL& Big Deal. Any shmuck with $350 can buy a Radeon 9800Pro, it doesn't make you part of some elite gaming overlords. (if it helps you understand this, consider that I bought both an ATI 9700Pro and a Sapphire 9800 Pro in the last year, and I'm not exactly Carmack)

I wish I had a 5900Ultra to play with, I'm a gamer who likes to try new hardware, not some ATI kissa$$ suckling at Gabe's pendulous teats.....

Do you even play pc games or do you just bench cards to look at the pretty numbers? When is the last time you played counter strike I bet you get knifed when you do. I don't know any real gamer who doesn't want the best iq with the highest fps for hl2. Only people not interested in hl2 play warcraft or flight sims and even they want the best iq. Right now the best card for hl2 is the radeon 9800 pro. So what are you babbling about? If you want to play great games with a b.s. card try mame.

 

[oldfart]

Originally posted by: Rollo
What you guys need to do is get a grip.

DX9 is not going to be some magic fairy dust that will make flat pictures on your monitor suddenly seem like lifesize 3d hallucinations in some virtual reality wonderland.
Some water might look shinier, some smoke puffier, some reflections a bit more realistic- but it's still all going to look like a cartoon, not a movie of real life.

It will make an incremental difference. Technology has made slow and steady advances. Look where Q1 was compared to Q3. It didn't happen overnight. DX9 and shader technology is another nice step forward. BTW, it will do much more than what you stated from what I have read. Why are you so opposed to improved technology?

Also, your choice of video card doesn't make you a smarter person entitled to put down fellow ATers because they bought a different video card than you.

There you go twisting things again to suit your own needs.. No one is putting anyone down for a choice of a video card. You on the other hand consistently put down anyone who disagrees with what you have to say. You jump into this thread criticizing NFS4 for no reason, attack Gabe Newell because of his weight problem. You have been equally rude to posters on the video forum. People are discussing how different video cards will play HL2 and which one is a better card for it and other DX9 games. You are twisting it into something else.

Like always- LOL& Big Deal. Any shmuck with $350 can buy a Radeon 9800Pro, it doesn't make you part of some elite gaming overlords. (if it helps you understand this, consider that I bought both an ATI 9700Pro and a Sapphire 9800 Pro in the last year, and I'm not exactly Carmack)

So what? What is your point? I would agree any schmuck can buy a 9800P. At least you have proven something BTW, I noticed you left out one of your recent cards. Any particular reason for that omission?

Your "video quality doesn't matter, HL2 sucks, Gabe is fat, DX9 is a joke, all video cards are the same, who cares about games anyway, its just people showing off...blah blah.." posts dont add anything useful to the topic.

People here are trying to discuss the differences between video hardware in an important (yes, I know it wont solve world hunger) new game. Despite what your opinion is, there are very significant differences in the two pieces of hardware being discussed here. Every website that has done an article on this topic agrees strongly on that subject. there must be something to it. Just because YOU think it is irrelevant, doesn't mean it is.

I wish I had a 5900Ultra to play with, I'm a gamer who likes to try new hardware, not some ATI kissa$$ suckling at Gabe's pendulous teats.....

Brilliant as always

 

[nRollo]

What you all seem to forget when extolling the wondrous virtues of our glorious future playing HL2 on our 9800Ps is this:
This is progress?!

All tests were run without Anti-Aliasing or Anisotropic Filtering enabled. Anti-Aliasing was not properly supported in this demo and thus wouldn't be representative of final game play.

WTF? A P4 3GHz/1GB RAM/9800 Pro and we're at 57fps AVERAGE at 12X10 with NO AA/AF?!

You spent the past year bragging about the great ATI AA/AF (I don't disagree, it's very good) and this game you're all saying is the most important shooter ever is offering performance that isn't exactly conducive to cranking the resolution and settings. There's no "MAX IQ" going on here, why is this game not going to be jagged and blurry without AA/AF?

I'll say it again: no card out now, or cpu is what I'd call good for this game. It's just a matter of not as BAD.

And you're right, I'll lay off Gabe.

 

[oldfart]

Yup, this game and others such as D3 will be pushing out HW pretty hard. People are too used to 300 FPS in Q3. Maybe when the final game and drivers are released, we may see a little better performance, but not a whole lot.

This is why this game and HW is getting so much talk. 300 vs 320 FPS in Q3 is not very interesting anymore.

In your link:
10 x 7
9800P in DX9 = 78.4
5900U in mixed mode = 46.2

12 x 10
9800P in DX9 = 57.3
5900U in mixed mode = 33

Yeah, certainly not the super high framerates we are used to, BUT....the game is MUCH more playable on the 9800P. I could live with 78 or even 57 FPS if it didn't drop much below that. 46 and especially 33 are not what i would want particularly when it takes a reduced quality to get there.

If those numbers are too low for anyone, dont buy the game.

For me, it will be too good a game to pass up. I can live with playing at a little lower res.

 

[nRollo]

I also notice it said the AA doesn't even work, and we're a whole 10 days before the game?
So you have a game you have to run at low res, low settings in DX 9.
How exciting.

The game looks fun, but those framerates for online play don't thrill me.

 

[oldfart]

Release date has been pretty....secrative..?? I dont think it will come out on the 30th, although I'd like to be pleasantly surprised. The benchmark demo on the 30th is the last I heard.

If I can get ~ steady 60 FPS, I'll be happy. That is smooth for a single player game. I run an LCD with a 60 Hz refresh and I run Vsync on. 60 FPS is a good match.

I value good, fun, interesting gameplay above all else in a single player game. If it delivers that (it should), I can overlook the high hardware requirements.

This reminds me of when I first got Q3. I got ~ 80 FPS 10 x 7 x 32. Now that is a joke. Just like then, it will take awhile for the HW to catch up, but the game was still playable. HL2 will be the same (but a much better game).

As far as AA and all that goes, last I read, it does work. All that kind of stuff is to worry about once the game is out.

Online play is a big question. Haven't heard much about it yet.

 

[nRollo]

Perhaps we'll all have Volaris and AFR will be just the thing to make HL2 fly.......

Oh well. I'm not going to debate the whole 5900 vs 9800 thing anymore.
11/12 months with ATI in my box pretty much says it. I think I had that 9700 Pro longer than any video card in the last 4 years. We'll see how long the 9800 Pro lasts.

 

[Cerb]

The Geforce FX has had many problems at the same time ATi got their act together and did things right.
NVidia doesn't just have a name. Ever used ATi cards (aside from popular server solutions) before the Radeon 8x00 and their newer set of drivers? It was absolute Hell. With an NVidia-based card, you installed the dets and it worked.
Guess what? There is now a fully functioning and STABLE Rage 128 AIW that my dad and I figured had hardware problems years ago, and a Radeon 7500 AIW that did (the replacement works fine). Sure there are still some problems, but now they are being fixed on a regular basis.
I hope NVidia survives this well (I bet that until they get the NV4x out, they'll be very glad they got into motherboard chipsets! ), as we need the competition, and except for the shaky FX series, they have been providing it. I think the fact that the higher GF4 still sell for $150 and up (and are viable solutions for many people at that price!) is proof they have the right stuff--they just need to work the kinks out within their company and their partners.

 

[Nebor]

All tests were run without Anti-Aliasing or Anisotropic Filtering enabled. Anti-Aliasing was not properly supported in this demo and thus wouldn't be representative of final game play.

I didn't see that (because I haven't read any articles regarding this matter!)

For all we know, when you turn AA and AF up, the Radeon may take a big Performance hit, while the NVIDIA 5900 card maintains it's performance due to superior AA&AF power. Not too likely....

But you guys should realize that these are PRErelease numbers. These numbers were released at an ATI event.... by an ATI partner.

 

[yhelothar]

Originally posted by: OmegaRedd

Originally posted by: Rollo
What you guys need to do is get a grip.

DX9 is not going to be some magic fairy dust that will make flat pictures on your monitor suddenly seem like lifesize 3d hallucinations in some virtual reality wonderland.
Some water might look shinier, some smoke puffier, some reflections a bit more realistic- but it's still all going to look like a cartoon, not a movie of real life.

Also, your choice of video card doesn't make you a smarter person entitled to put down fellow ATers because they bought a different video card than you. Like always- LOL& Big Deal. Any shmuck with $350 can buy a Radeon 9800Pro, it doesn't make you part of some elite gaming overlords. (if it helps you understand this, consider that I bought both an ATI 9700Pro and a Sapphire 9800 Pro in the last year, and I'm not exactly Carmack)

I wish I had a 5900Ultra to play with, I'm a gamer who likes to try new hardware, not some ATI kissa$$ suckling at Gabe's pendulous teats.....

Do you even play pc games or do you just bench cards to look at the pretty numbers? When is the last time you played counter strike I bet you get knifed when you do. I don't know any real gamer who doesn't want the best iq with the highest fps for hl2. Only people not interested in hl2 play warcraft or flight sims and even they want the best iq. Right now the best card for hl2 is the radeon 9800 pro. So what are you babbling about? If you want to play great games with a b.s. card try mame.

lol what are you babbling about? speak for yourself kid... you have no idea how the general gamer thinks..
I am actually surprised how the general gamer thinks... All my friends that aren't tech geeks and just play games.. they just install a game.. and play it.. they don't even touch the graphic settings.. so there was my neighbor.. playing counterstrike on his GeForce4 ti4600 and P4 2.2GHz.. AT DEFAULT settings.. yes 640x480x16 with software rendering...
i was stunned at the graphics put out by his top notch computer(top notch at that time), i told him to change it.. he told me to shut up and stop bothering him...
most gamers DO NOT give a crap about the graphics.. they play the game for the gameplay.. not for the graphics...

 

[0roo0roo]

huh...he doesn't sound like most gamers to me. even my technologically impaired friends know how to push up graphics options. its simple reasoning, i pay XXX bux for a spankin video card why? to play at higher settings. this could be considered base knowledge based on simple intuition. your friend is a tard. bundleing him in with most people is insulting quite a few.

 

[yhelothar]

nahh most general gamers doesn't shop for computer parts.. nor knows much about them...

his dad bought the computer.. and he had no idea what video card it has.. or how fast his computer is...

yes most people just plays their games at the default settings..

yes i don't doubt that he knows how to change the settings.. .just that he can't be bothered to change it...

 

[0roo0roo]

next your going to tell me most gamers can't program their vcr.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
next your going to tell me most gamers can't program their vcr.

Dude, we can't! We can get just the right visual quality and performance comprimise, and tweak for hours...but a VCR? You're crazy, 0roo0roo!

 

[Goi]

Originally posted by: virtualgames0


lol what are you babbling about? speak for yourself kid... you have no idea how the general gamer thinks..
I am actually surprised how the general gamer thinks... All my friends that aren't tech geeks and just play games.. they just install a game.. and play it.. they don't even touch the graphic settings.. so there was my neighbor.. playing counterstrike on his GeForce4 ti4600 and P4 2.2GHz.. AT DEFAULT settings.. yes 640x480x16 with software rendering...
i was stunned at the graphics put out by his top notch computer(top notch at that time), i told him to change it.. he told me to shut up and stop bothering him...
most gamers DO NOT give a crap about the graphics.. they play the game for the gameplay.. not for the graphics...

lol I know what you mean, I have friends like this too, but we're not "general gamers" here are we? At least, not THAT kinda general

 

[Vonkhan]

Nebor, I buy & sell ATi (and other brand's) video cards on the For Sale / Trade forum on a regular basis, check out my heat under Vonkhan (whenever heatware.com is up again) and wouldn't touch a FX series card right now becuz they're being dumped by the truckload. I didn't own a 5900 (thankfully) but my roomie does and I'm trying to help him sell it off (interested? ) When I offered a 9700pro, it got gobbled up in less than a day ... my rommie is still looking for a buyer.

I have been a computer gamer for 15 years. If I've learned in that time is the only thing "buying for future games" gets you is broke. Know why? Because by the time the future games come out, new hardware that runs them twice as well comes out also.

HL2 is here, the future is here. Youz no gamer if u dont have a burning desire to play the latest on the greatest ... u sound like my dad, really!

I'm going to run it at DX 9 and DX8.1, check out the difference, and come back here and laugh much

... I think u're gonna go run into ur bed, stomach down and sob like a lil' baby

All a case of sour grapes ... unless nVIDIA is paying u by the hour, or by the word count in your arguements.

Give up, buy a 9800Pro and just enjoy yourself, will ya? u stress too much!

 

[OmegaRedd]

Originally posted by: virtualgames0

Originally posted by: OmegaRedd

Originally posted by: Rollo
What you guys need to do is get a grip.

DX9 is not going to be some magic fairy dust that will make flat pictures on your monitor suddenly seem like lifesize 3d hallucinations in some virtual reality wonderland.
Some water might look shinier, some smoke puffier, some reflections a bit more realistic- but it's still all going to look like a cartoon, not a movie of real life.

Also, your choice of video card doesn't make you a smarter person entitled to put down fellow ATers because they bought a different video card than you. Like always- LOL& Big Deal. Any shmuck with $350 can buy a Radeon 9800Pro, it doesn't make you part of some elite gaming overlords. (if it helps you understand this, consider that I bought both an ATI 9700Pro and a Sapphire 9800 Pro in the last year, and I'm not exactly Carmack)

I wish I had a 5900Ultra to play with, I'm a gamer who likes to try new hardware, not some ATI kissa$$ suckling at Gabe's pendulous teats.....

Do you even play pc games or do you just bench cards to look at the pretty numbers? When is the last time you played counter strike I bet you get knifed when you do. I don't know any real gamer who doesn't want the best iq with the highest fps for hl2. Only people not interested in hl2 play warcraft or flight sims and even they want the best iq. Right now the best card for hl2 is the radeon 9800 pro. So what are you babbling about? If you want to play great games with a b.s. card try mame.

lol what are you babbling about? speak for yourself kid... you have no idea how the general gamer thinks..
I am actually surprised how the general gamer thinks... All my friends that aren't tech geeks and just play games.. they just install a game.. and play it.. they don't even touch the graphic settings.. so there was my neighbor.. playing counterstrike on his GeForce4 ti4600 and P4 2.2GHz.. AT DEFAULT settings.. yes 640x480x16 with software rendering...
i was stunned at the graphics put out by his top notch computer(top notch at that time), i told him to change it.. he told me to shut up and stop bothering him...
most gamers DO NOT give a crap about the graphics.. they play the game for the gameplay.. not for the graphics...

I don't know which lan parties you and your " special" friends go to but they are mf retards I mean special. I want you to go to any lan party and repeat what you said here and see what happens (punch in face get outa here newbi). Don't insult me by telling your " special " friends are the general gamer because if that's the case then we might see hl2 at the special olympics

 

[nRollo]

HL2 is here, the future is here. Youz no gamer if u dont have a burning desire to play the latest on the greatest ... u sound like my dad, really![

LOL I bought a TNT1, THT2, GF1, GF2, GF3, GF4, GF FX the month they came out. I bought a Voodoo 1, Voodoo2 the month they came out. I bought my Rage 32, Radeon 9700 Pro the month they came out. The only reason I DIDN'T buy all the OTHER video cards I've bought the MONTH THEY CAME OUT, is that they weren't as good as what I had when they came out. You don't know what you're talking about.

Quote
I'm going to run it at DX 9 and DX8.1, check out the difference, and come back here and laugh much



... I think u're gonna go run into ur bed, stomach down and sob like a lil' baby

All a case of sour grapes ... unless nVIDIA is paying u by the hour, or by the word count in your arguements.

Give up, buy a 9800Pro and just enjoy yourself, will ya? u stress too much!

I work for a software firm. I sold my GF FX and bought a 9800 Pro on July 24th?

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: Rollo
What you all seem to forget when extolling the wondrous virtues of our glorious future playing HL2 on our 9800Ps is this:
This is progress?!

All tests were run without Anti-Aliasing or Anisotropic Filtering enabled. Anti-Aliasing was not properly supported in this demo and thus wouldn't be representative of final game play.

WTF? A P4 3GHz/1GB RAM/9800 Pro and we're at 57fps AVERAGE at 12X10 with NO AA/AF?!

You spent the past year bragging about the great ATI AA/AF (I don't disagree, it's very good) and this game you're all saying is the most important shooter ever is offering performance that isn't exactly conducive to cranking the resolution and settings. There's no "MAX IQ" going on here, why is this game not going to be jagged and blurry without AA/AF?

I'll say it again: no card out now, or cpu is what I'd call good for this game. It's just a matter of not as BAD.

And you're right, I'll lay off Gabe.

Rollo - your arguments are ludicrous and I feel bad for Oldfart just for putting up with your nonsense for so long. I'm sure even you know how stupid your "57fps and NO AA/AF ... how is that progress" quote is.

All "revolutionary" games run like dogs on current hardware. Quake 1, Quake 3, Unreal, etc. They all ran like crap at high resolutions with all eye candy on, until bigger and better video cards came out. You should know this too, as an owner of a Voodoo 1 (which ran Quake 1 like crap at 1024), Voodoo 2 (which ran Unreal like crap at 1024), etc.

But of course, there you go again ignoring the facts and twisting everyone's words to your will. HL2 looks to have a revolutionary engine (the physics, game engine, graphics, and hopefully gameplay should all set new precidents). Doom3 also has a revolutionary engine (the lighting is absolutely out-of-this-world .. or, more correctly, a good representation of this world, which makes it so good). So get off your high horse and stop bashing DX9 games because they run poorly on current hardware. No pain, no gain. And anyone who thinks "well, 57fps is pretty bad for a game, so I wouldn't mind paying equal money to run it on different hardware at 25fps" is a tool.

 

[baraka]

Originally posted by: Rollo

So what would you have had nVidia do, NFS4? Not release the nV35 because they knew it wouldn't be as fast at DX9, because there will be 2-3 DX9 games out by Christmas?

I can name 4 games that require DX9 right now:

Tron 2.0
FS2004
Star Trek Elite Force
Midnight Club II

And I'm not a big gamer. There could be more.

 

[yhelothar]

and which one of those 4 games uses PS2.0?
none...
tron2.0 possibly..

 

[nRollo]

So get off your high horse and stop bashing DX9 games because they run poorly on current hardware. No pain, no gain. And anyone who thinks "well, 57fps is pretty bad for a game, so I wouldn't mind paying equal money to run it on different hardware at 25fps" is a tool.

Anyone who runs HL2 at a jaggie, blurry 10X7 to see shinier water and better reflections is a tool. What's more unrealistic Jiffy? The images on the scene being all broken up and jagged because there aren't enough polys to render them at 10X7, or less reflective water?

<Rollo puts on thinking cap>

I don't know why anyone puts up with posts like yours. If I have to make a choice between AA/AF at 10X7 and lighting effects, I'll take the AA/AF. This isn't 16X12 where it doesn't matter if you have AA as much, and most people are saying it's not a lightning fast shooter where you will sacrifice the AA to have playable rates.

I don't have any problem with new games pushing hardware. I have a problem with hypocrites telling people to buy current hardware because it's "not as bad". Two cards can still suck at something, with one sucking half as much.

 

[OmegaRedd]

Originally posted by: Rollo

So get off your high horse and stop bashing DX9 games because they run poorly on current hardware. No pain, no gain. And anyone who thinks "well, 57fps is pretty bad for a game, so I wouldn't mind paying equal money to run it on different hardware at 25fps" is a tool.

Anyone who runs HL2 at a jaggie, blurry 10X7 to see shinier water and better reflections is a tool. What's more unrealistic Jiffy? The images on the scene being all broken up and jagged because there aren't enough polys to render them at 10X7, or less reflective water?

<Rollo puts on thinking cap>

I don't know why anyone puts up with posts like yours. If I have to make a choice between AA/AF at 10X7 and lighting effects, I'll take the AA/AF. This isn't 16X12 where it doesn't matter if you have AA as much, and most people are saying it's not a lightning fast shooter where you will sacrifice the AA to have playable rates.

I don't have any problem with new games pushing hardware. I have a problem with hypocrites telling people to buy current hardware because it's "not as bad". Two cards can still suck at something, with one sucking half as much.

Rollo I don't have the demo yet but looking at screen shots (which are likely not as clear as the demo) I fail to see a "jaggie blurry" screen.
I know you just want to pick fights but you don't have a clue why counter strike or hl2 is da-bomb. You most likely suck and don't even own a copy legal or otherwise. I have more respect for virtualgames 0 and his "special" peeps who at least try to play. There will always be a new card,cpu,motherboard ect around the corner but this thread is about the current hardware and the contraversy surrounding nvidia/ati and hl2. Nvidiots flamed gabe because he had the balls to tell truth about the fx series sh-ty proformance in dx9 after 10 months pr coverups. Carmack statement should clear up any misconceptions about this generation of hardware. Will the nv40 be better can't get worse. Will it be dx9 complient I doubt it. Unless nvidia plans on selling fx cards cheaper than the radeon and stops running through the game scene like a bull in a china shop. They will be looking at some unhappy share holders soon.:beer: