Cars nerds - how does VW Atlas (6,000 lbs) get 19 MPG while Pilot (4,000 lbs) only gets 21 MPG?

[Zeze]

2018 Volkswagen Atlas 4motion 3.6 L, 6 cyl, Automatic (S8), Regular Gasoline
19 MPG combined, 19 city, 23 highway,
5997 lbs (wtf)

2018 Honda Pilot AWD 3.5 L, 6 cyl, Automatic 6-spd, Regular Gasoline
21 MPG combined, 18 city, 26 highway.
4317 lbs

Atlas is hauling an extra 39% weight (a whopping 1680 lbs) just with 10% extra MPG hit. This is staggering to me.

How does this work- is Honda that much terrible at engine efficiency? When you're doing city driving, there's almost no difference. And we know on top of being much heavier, Atlas' form factor is bigger with much worse aerodynamics.

What's going on?

 

[Beer4Me]

Duh. The Volkswagen is using a 8-spd Auto trans, so it has 2 more gears thus a lower final drive ratio. Honda has not refreshed the Pilot since it's introduction, and the competition has really started to catch up/pass. As heated as the SUV market is, Honda probably needs a mid-cycle refresh of the Pilot for 2019 MY.

 

[Zeze]

Duh. The Volkswagen is using a 8-spd Auto trans, so it has 2 more gears thus a lower final drive ratio. Honda has not refreshed the Pilot since it's introduction, and the competition has really started to catch up/pass. As heated as the SUV market is, Honda probably needs a mid-cycle refresh of the Pilot for 2019 MY.

How does this explain other SUVs in same class with equally crappy MPG with similar V6/weight/AWD?

2018 Hyundai Santa Fe 18 city, 24 hwy
2018 Toyota Highlander 19 city, 26 hwy
2018 BMW X5 18 city, 24 hwy (v6 turbo)

All same weight (4300~)

 

[Yuriman]

Weight is almost irrelevant on the highway. Also you switched the fuel economy of two of the models - the 4motion is 17mpg city:

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2018_Volkswagen_Atlas.shtml

For what it's worth, the Honda is probably a lot more fun to drive, given the slightly more powerful engine and 33% weight reduction. According to EPA numbers, the Honda does considerably better on the highway, where aerodynamics, gearing, and engine efficiency are the biggest factors. The gap closes in town, where weight becomes a larger factor, which is bizarre considering the VW is so much heavier. I have no explanation. Maybe different shift points? An econ mode which discourages rapid acceleration? A larger window of high efficiency across the RPM-band with the VW, whereas the Honda's efficiency is more peaky at normal highway RPM?

 

[NutBucket]

Duh. The Volkswagen is using a 8-spd Auto trans, so it has 2 more gears thus a lower final drive ratio. Honda has not refreshed the Pilot since it's introduction, and the competition has really started to catch up/pass. As heated as the SUV market is, Honda probably needs a mid-cycle refresh of the Pilot for 2019 MY.

The high-end Pilots get a 9 (or is it 10?) speed trans and there isn't a corresponding increase in MPG....

 

[tynopik]

What's going on?

two words: defeat device

 

[Beer4Me]

The high-end Pilots get a 9 (or is it 10?) speed trans and there isn't a corresponding increase in MPG....

Honda's 9-spd is one of the worst auto-trans. Hopefully, their new 10-spd replaces it altogether in the lineup.

 

[NutBucket]

The 9 is just a ZF. The 10 is their in-house design but isn't designed for AWD from what I have read.

 

[XavierMace]

@Zeze I'm not sure where you're getting that weight number from but I can't find a reputable site that back up that weight statement. Motor Trend lists it at 4,725 which puts it in line with the others. MT also answers your question, it's the transmission. It tries to get to the fuel saving gearing as quickly as possible which makes it the slowest SUV in it's class.

 

[JCH13]

Looking in aggregate, the Atlas is comparable to the Pilot, if not better:

http://www.fuelly.com/car/volkswagen/atlas

http://www.fuelly.com/car/honda/pilot/all

Granted Atlas data is a little thin.

The 4Motion system normally drives with little or no torque passed through the rear wheels, making it closer to 2WD under most circumstances. Honda doesn't note any fancy features with the Pilot's AWD, leading me to assume that it's a 'symmetric' kind of setup with larger drivetrain losses than the VW.

Edit: 6k is likely the GVWR, not the curb weight.

 

[tsupersonic]

OP, you're wrong. The Atlas is not 6k lbs. The curb weight is 4500 lbs for a v6 SEL Premium w/ 4Motion (top end trim). The base S trim weighs 4222 lbs. The 5997 lbs that your quoting is the GVWR.

The Atlas specs are on VW's site...Not sure what you guys are Googling lol

 

[NutBucket]

I highly doubt Honda is using a 50-50 system...I don't think anyone does really except for a manual WRX or a "real" offroader like the GX or something.

 

[JCH13]

I highly doubt Honda is using a 50-50 system...I don't think anyone does really except for a manual WRX or a "real" offroader like the GX or something.

I guess symmetric is the wrong term. All-open diffs? What's the term for that? I don't know, there isn't a lot of information readily available on Honda's system in the Pilot. Even Subarus aren't consistently designed: some have viscous LSDs in the middle, the STI has TWO center differentials, many have open front and rear diffs, but some have mechanical LSDs in the rear... so even calling Subarus 'symmetric' is a little misleading.

The GX 470 has a Torsen center with open fronts and rears controlled by ATRAC. Not sure what you'd call that either, aside from 'the tits.'

 

[NutBucket]

Nah, 'the tits' would be the G-wagon with 3 lockable diffs.

 

[NutBucket]

FWIW, here's what Honda says about the AWD system in the Pilot:

"The Intelligent Variable Torque Management (i-VTM4™) AWD System dynamically adjusts the power delivered to your wheels to keep you on track even offroad."

https://salestraining.honda.com/en/...rque-Management-i-VTM4-All-Wheel-Drive-System

 

[JCH13]

That's the Ridgeline, not the Pilot. Are they the same AWD system? I thought the Ridgeline and Corsstour were the common platform.

And triple lockers sound great until you need to turn...

 

[NutBucket]

They're manually controlled, 3 switches on the console.

Anyway, that's material for the 2018 Ridgeline which is common platform to the Pilot. Plus, the the system has the same name. I know the MDX has some sort of torque vectoring too.

 

[Accord99]

They're manually controlled, 3 switches on the console.

Anyway, that's material for the 2018 Ridgeline which is common platform to the Pilot. Plus, the the system has the same name. I know the MDX has some sort of torque vectoring too.

The iVTM-4 system found the current Ridgeline and Pilot is basically a re-branded SH-AWD for Honda. So normally it's 90-10 torque split front-rear, that can go up to 30-70 split and torque at the rear axle can be shifted up to 100% to just one wheel.

 

[JCH13]

So, no obvious AWD-related reason for them to be different. I would conclude that they have similar weights and one has more gears than the other, so that's the big difference.

 

[Yuriman]

Yet somehow the Honda gets ~3mpg (or ~15%) better highway fuel economy, with a slightly more powerful engine. It's also larger in every dimension according to Google.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Yet somehow the Honda gets ~3mpg (or ~15%) better highway fuel economy, with a slightly more powerful engine. It's also larger in every dimension according to Google.

Variable displacement maybe?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Cylinder_Management

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Oh, the PIlot also has a slightly smaller drag coefficient.

0.32 listed here. http://autotk.com/dimensions/honda/pilot/2016/

0.34 listed here for the Atlas. https://www.tflcar.com/2017/04/2018-volkswagen-atlas-sel-premium-awd-test-drive-review/

Not sure how big a difference that would make.

 

[mooncancook]

Common sense tells me drag coefficient plays a more important role as speed increases, hence the Pilot gets noticeably better highway milages, assuming similar gearing.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Already been mentioned ... but, the answer is that Apples and Oranges are being compared.
GVWR = Weight of car + maximum load

Atlas and Pilot weights are much closer.

 

[Scarpozzi]

My 2009 F150 gets 18MPG and it has a 4.6L V8 and a weight of 5120lbs with a full tank of gas(I put it on scales every now and then). Transmissions make a lot of difference on torque and mpg. The current gen of F150s are putting 10 speeds on their trucks standard. That's crazy talk when you compare it to the old days with 3 and 4 speeds.

Also remember that gas mileage isn't linear either. My point, the first 0-5mph takes more effort than once the vehicle gets its mass rolling.....5-10mph less.....15-30mph less....and once it gets to cruising speed, it starts losing efficiency based on whatever the top gear ratio is set for.