Catholic Church, founded by Jesus

[Krk3561]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: AMDZen
Another issue with the RCC is their stance on Women Priestess'. I won't delve into this one too far, I just want to say that I completely disagree with their stance on it. And I for one, would definetely think that women are equal in the eyes of god. And can intrepret, or do whatever else these Priests, Bishops or even the Pope himself can do, and do it equally well.

"For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to (nik's edit)Catholicism.(nik's edit)" 2 Timothy 4:3-4

I totally and completely agree.

Way to show you can edit my statement. +1 for you!

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: Nik
I refuse to read an explanation of "Peter the rock" from catholic.com. Find a NON-BIAS explanation of why you believe the way you do. Namely, directly from the Bible. Stop copying and pasting from other websites. Speak from your intelligence. Speak from your wisdom. Speak from the heart. Speak from the Bible!

Do you not even read?

Matthew 16:16-19.

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal [this] to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it. 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (NASB).

Your mental prowess astounds me.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: AMDZen
Another issue with the RCC is their stance on Women Priestess'. I won't delve into this one too far, I just want to say that I completely disagree with their stance on it. And I for one, would definetely think that women are equal in the eyes of god. And can intrepret, or do whatever else these Priests, Bishops or even the Pope himself can do, and do it equally well.

"For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to (nik's edit)Catholicism.(nik's edit)" 2 Timothy 4:3-4

I totally and completely agree.

Way to show you can edit my statement. +1 for you!

My point was that the passage you quoted works just as much against you as it does for you.

 

[Attrox]

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: Attrox

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Platinum321
I would have to agree with Nik and Amdzen, they seem to have a good idea of what Christ stood for. The Catholic church and all its rituals/rules is certainly not what Christ preached.

That's just the thing, though. He taught against hypocrits and false teachers who push that salvation is attained through any sort of ritualistic, legalistic set of rules. How can you say that you follow the teachings of Christ when you require your fellow "church" members to follow rituals/rules that go against His teachings?

I think you have a biased, misconceived view of the RCC. Can you provide an example of rituals that go against his teachings?

See Kinev's last post in the "Catholocism = Christianity?" thread

EDIT: forgot to quote

EDIT2: Currently, it's the last post in that thread (page 9)

Are you referring to this?

Have you read the thread? If not, here it is:
Catholicism=salvation through faith and works
Christianity=salvation through faith alone

That has nothing to do with what I said. By Christianity he's referring to Protestantism, not Catholicism.

Can you provide an example of rituals that go against his teachings?
Wasn't that your question?
Catholicism=salvation through faith and sacraments. Kinev quoted this directly from official catholic website. What more obvious prove do you need?

 

[Krk3561]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: AMDZen
Another issue with the RCC is their stance on Women Priestess'. I won't delve into this one too far, I just want to say that I completely disagree with their stance on it. And I for one, would definetely think that women are equal in the eyes of god. And can intrepret, or do whatever else these Priests, Bishops or even the Pope himself can do, and do it equally well.

"For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to (nik's edit)Catholicism.(nik's edit)" 2 Timothy 4:3-4

I totally and completely agree.

Way to show you can edit my statement. +1 for you!

My point was that the passage you quoted works just as much against you as it does for you.

Well considering this passage was written by Paul, an early member of the CATHOLIC church, I don't understand what you're arguing here.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Krk3561
Well considering this passage was written by Paul, an early member of the CATHOLIC church, I don't understand what you're arguing here.

:laugh:

Where, in scripture, does Paul write that he founded the Catholic church? What NON-CATHOLIC evidence can you provide to me that proves that Paul started this grotesquely hacked up version of Christ's teachings? Moreover, WHY would Paul endorce such an abortion of the faith to begin with?

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Krk3561
Well considering this passage was written by Paul, an early member of the CATHOLIC church, I don't understand what you're arguing here.

:laugh:

Where, in scripture, does Paul write that he founded the Catholic church? What NON-CATHOLIC evidence can you provide to me that proves that Paul started this grotesquely hacked up version of Christ's teachings? Moreover, WHY would Paul endorce such an abortion of the faith to begin with?

he's arguing in circles.

christ appointed peter the Rock on which the church (which automatically means Catholic Church for no apparent reason) was built, hence paul who was part of the same "church" was also catholic.

 

[Attrox]

Another point is regarding the pope's death.
I know that he was a good person and has done tremendous good too. But why the treatment as if he was some sort of God who died?
Even peter (correct me if I'm wrong) chose to not glorified his own death.

 

[AMDZen]

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: AMDZen
Another issue with the RCC is their stance on Women Priestess'. I won't delve into this one too far, I just want to say that I completely disagree with their stance on it. And I for one, would definetely think that women are equal in the eyes of god. And can intrepret, or do whatever else these Priests, Bishops or even the Pope himself can do, and do it equally well.

"For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths." 2 Timothy 4:3-4

I don't understand your quoting this either. What does that have to do with Women being equal in the eyes of god?

 

[piasabird]

I like this quote, but I interpret it differently.

Flesh did not reveal that Jesus was the Christ, because it is Revelation that revealed it. It is this Revelation that the True Church is founded on. It is the Holy Ghost which reveals all things. Christ did not respect authority or men, he respected their actions.

 

[Krk3561]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Krk3561
Well considering this passage was written by Paul, an early member of the CATHOLIC church, I don't understand what you're arguing here.

:laugh:

Where, in scripture, does Paul write that he founded the Catholic church? What NON-CATHOLIC evidence can you provide to me that proves that Paul started this grotesquely hacked up version of Christ's teachings? Moreover, WHY would Paul endorce such an abortion of the faith to begin with?

Jesus spoke to his disciples just before His suffering and crucifixion (recorded in John 14,15, 16), and told them some important things before they were confronted with the crisis of the Cross. Among the instructions which Jesus gave to the apostles, was a pre-authentication of the entire New Testament. John 14:26 and John 16:13 are the key passages. In those two portions of Scripture Jesus promised that He would send the Holy Spirit (who will do three things):

a) "bring to your remembrance all that / have said to you"--that is, events associated with the life and death of Christ as we find them in the Gospel accounts.

b) "will teach you (explain to you) all things"-that is, the Holy Spirit will give you an interpretation of the historical facts as we find them in the Epistles.

c) "will show you things to come"--that is, the Holy Spirit will show the great events associated with the end of the age, as we find them in the Revelation.

Jesus promised these things to His apostles just before His death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven. And so the New Testament is not a record based on the fallible memories of the human apostles, but the entire New Testament contains the truth which is a revelation of the infallible Holy Spirit. This promise of the Holy Spirit's oversight includes the epistles of Paul. Jesus said to the apostles, just before He ascended into Heaven, that what they recorded would be superintended by the divine Comforter, the Holy Spirit. Thus what the apostles wrote was pre-authenticated by Jesus.

 

[Krk3561]

Originally posted by: piasabird
I like this quote, but I interpret it differently.

There's your problem

 

[pcnerd37]

If you do your research, the catholic church wasnt actually formed till more than 300 years after christ died.

 

[QuitBanningMe]

Originally posted by: J Heartless Slick

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
The Catholic Church wasn't "founded" by Jesus, Jesus established Christianity.

Then, in about 600 A.D., the Bishop of Rome broke off his little "section" of the religion and called it the Catholic Church, and started calling himself the Pope.

Orthodox Christianity is the closest form of Christianity to what really existed after Christ said "Go forth and preach to all nations".

Jesus did not establish Christianity. He was Jewish and died a Jew. He did not mention starting a new faith.

 

[Attrox]

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Krk3561
Well considering this passage was written by Paul, an early member of the CATHOLIC church, I don't understand what you're arguing here.

:laugh:

Where, in scripture, does Paul write that he founded the Catholic church? What NON-CATHOLIC evidence can you provide to me that proves that Paul started this grotesquely hacked up version of Christ's teachings? Moreover, WHY would Paul endorce such an abortion of the faith to begin with?

Jesus spoke to his disciples just before His suffering and crucifixion (recorded in John 14,15, 16), and told them some important things before they were confronted with the crisis of the Cross. Among the instructions which Jesus gave to the apostles, was a pre-authentication of the entire New Testament. John 14:26 and John 16:13 are the key passages. In those two portions of Scripture Jesus promised that He would send the Holy Spirit (who will do three things):

a) "bring to your remembrance all that / have said to you"--that is, events associated with the life and death of Christ as we find them in the Gospel accounts.

b) "will teach you (explain to you) all things"-that is, the Holy Spirit will give you an interpretation of the historical facts as we find them in the Epistles.

c) "will show you things to come"--that is, the Holy Spirit will show the great events associated with the end of the age, as we find them in the Revelation.

Jesus promised these things to His apostles just before His death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven. And so the New Testament is not a record based on the fallible memories of the human apostles, but the entire New Testament contains the truth which is a revelation of the infallible Holy Spirit. This promise of the Holy Spirit's oversight includes the epistles of Paul. Jesus said to the apostles, just before He ascended into Heaven, that what they recorded would be superintended by the divine Comforter, the Holy Spirit. Thus what the apostles wrote was pre-authenticated by Jesus.

Again, it has nothing to do with catholicism or its treatmen of women priestess. Are you saying Christians do not believe the existence of the Holy Spirit?

 

[AMDZen]

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: piasabird
I like this quote, but I interpret it differently.

There's your problem

LoL

Yea, god forbid (litterally) anyone from interpretting things in their own way. Everyone should think the exact same way and interpret everything the exact same way. So thats why there's only one form of Christianity, and its in fact the only religion on the planet. Hmmm, it all makes sense now.

 

[Krk3561]

Originally posted by: Attrox

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Krk3561
Well considering this passage was written by Paul, an early member of the CATHOLIC church, I don't understand what you're arguing here.

:laugh:

Where, in scripture, does Paul write that he founded the Catholic church? What NON-CATHOLIC evidence can you provide to me that proves that Paul started this grotesquely hacked up version of Christ's teachings? Moreover, WHY would Paul endorce such an abortion of the faith to begin with?

Jesus spoke to his disciples just before His suffering and crucifixion (recorded in John 14,15, 16), and told them some important things before they were confronted with the crisis of the Cross. Among the instructions which Jesus gave to the apostles, was a pre-authentication of the entire New Testament. John 14:26 and John 16:13 are the key passages. In those two portions of Scripture Jesus promised that He would send the Holy Spirit (who will do three things):

a) "bring to your remembrance all that / have said to you"--that is, events associated with the life and death of Christ as we find them in the Gospel accounts.

b) "will teach you (explain to you) all things"-that is, the Holy Spirit will give you an interpretation of the historical facts as we find them in the Epistles.

c) "will show you things to come"--that is, the Holy Spirit will show the great events associated with the end of the age, as we find them in the Revelation.

Jesus promised these things to His apostles just before His death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven. And so the New Testament is not a record based on the fallible memories of the human apostles, but the entire New Testament contains the truth which is a revelation of the infallible Holy Spirit. This promise of the Holy Spirit's oversight includes the epistles of Paul. Jesus said to the apostles, just before He ascended into Heaven, that what they recorded would be superintended by the divine Comforter, the Holy Spirit. Thus what the apostles wrote was pre-authenticated by Jesus.

Again, it has nothing to do with catholicism or its treatmen of women priestess. Are you saying Christians do not believe the existence of the Holy Spirit?

Wow, seriously, your ignorance astounds me. I was providing evidence of Paul's authority. Your belief that the church should allow women priests is based on your own personal opinion. That all fine and dandy, you're entitled to your opinion, but just because you believe that, the church should follow it? You want to Christianity to conform to what you want, not the other way around as it should be. As a Christian uou are a follower of Christ and the Church.

"For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths." 2 Timothy 4:3-4

 

[Krk3561]

Originally posted by: AMDZen

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: piasabird
I like this quote, but I interpret it differently.

There's your problem

LoL

Yea, god forbid (litterally) anyone from interpretting things in their own way. Everyone should think the exact same way and interpret everything the exact same way. So thats why there's only one form of Christianity, and its in fact the only religion on the planet. Hmmm, it all makes sense now.

Well, the point of religion is that you accept its doctrine as true, is it not? That doesn't mean you are free to interpret it as how ever you want. I think this was one of the sources of the Protestant reformation. Calvin, I think, believed that members of the church should be able to interpret the scriptures as they thought, but that is not a part of Catholicism. A center institution of Catholicism is tradition. Catholic belief is derived from Councils, Social Teachings, the Catechism, etc..

 

[Attrox]

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: Attrox

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Krk3561
Well considering this passage was written by Paul, an early member of the CATHOLIC church, I don't understand what you're arguing here.

:laugh:

Where, in scripture, does Paul write that he founded the Catholic church? What NON-CATHOLIC evidence can you provide to me that proves that Paul started this grotesquely hacked up version of Christ's teachings? Moreover, WHY would Paul endorce such an abortion of the faith to begin with?

Jesus spoke to his disciples just before His suffering and crucifixion (recorded in John 14,15, 16), and told them some important things before they were confronted with the crisis of the Cross. Among the instructions which Jesus gave to the apostles, was a pre-authentication of the entire New Testament. John 14:26 and John 16:13 are the key passages. In those two portions of Scripture Jesus promised that He would send the Holy Spirit (who will do three things):

a) "bring to your remembrance all that / have said to you"--that is, events associated with the life and death of Christ as we find them in the Gospel accounts.

b) "will teach you (explain to you) all things"-that is, the Holy Spirit will give you an interpretation of the historical facts as we find them in the Epistles.

c) "will show you things to come"--that is, the Holy Spirit will show the great events associated with the end of the age, as we find them in the Revelation.

Jesus promised these things to His apostles just before His death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven. And so the New Testament is not a record based on the fallible memories of the human apostles, but the entire New Testament contains the truth which is a revelation of the infallible Holy Spirit. This promise of the Holy Spirit's oversight includes the epistles of Paul. Jesus said to the apostles, just before He ascended into Heaven, that what they recorded would be superintended by the divine Comforter, the Holy Spirit. Thus what the apostles wrote was pre-authenticated by Jesus.

Again, it has nothing to do with catholicism or its treatmen of women priestess. Are you saying Christians do not believe the existence of the Holy Spirit?

Wow, seriously, your ignorance astounds me. I was providing evidence of Paul's authority. Your belief that the church should allow women priests is based on your own personal opinion. That all fine and dandy, you're entitled to your opinion, but just because you believe that, the church should follow it? You want to Christianity to conform to what you want, not the other way around as it should be. As a Christian uou are a follower of Christ and the Church.

"For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths." 2 Timothy 4:3-4

How does Paul's writing in this instance point to NO women priestess allowed? By your way of thinking, I can use the same scripture for Catholic teachers.

 

[Krk3561]

Originally posted by: Attrox

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: Attrox

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Krk3561
Well considering this passage was written by Paul, an early member of the CATHOLIC church, I don't understand what you're arguing here.

:laugh:

Where, in scripture, does Paul write that he founded the Catholic church? What NON-CATHOLIC evidence can you provide to me that proves that Paul started this grotesquely hacked up version of Christ's teachings? Moreover, WHY would Paul endorce such an abortion of the faith to begin with?

Jesus spoke to his disciples just before His suffering and crucifixion (recorded in John 14,15, 16), and told them some important things before they were confronted with the crisis of the Cross. Among the instructions which Jesus gave to the apostles, was a pre-authentication of the entire New Testament. John 14:26 and John 16:13 are the key passages. In those two portions of Scripture Jesus promised that He would send the Holy Spirit (who will do three things):

a) "bring to your remembrance all that / have said to you"--that is, events associated with the life and death of Christ as we find them in the Gospel accounts.

b) "will teach you (explain to you) all things"-that is, the Holy Spirit will give you an interpretation of the historical facts as we find them in the Epistles.

c) "will show you things to come"--that is, the Holy Spirit will show the great events associated with the end of the age, as we find them in the Revelation.

Jesus promised these things to His apostles just before His death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven. And so the New Testament is not a record based on the fallible memories of the human apostles, but the entire New Testament contains the truth which is a revelation of the infallible Holy Spirit. This promise of the Holy Spirit's oversight includes the epistles of Paul. Jesus said to the apostles, just before He ascended into Heaven, that what they recorded would be superintended by the divine Comforter, the Holy Spirit. Thus what the apostles wrote was pre-authenticated by Jesus.

Again, it has nothing to do with catholicism or its treatmen of women priestess. Are you saying Christians do not believe the existence of the Holy Spirit?

Wow, seriously, your ignorance astounds me. I was providing evidence of Paul's authority. Your belief that the church should allow women priests is based on your own personal opinion. That all fine and dandy, you're entitled to your opinion, but just because you believe that, the church should follow it? You want to Christianity to conform to what you want, not the other way around as it should be. As a Christian uou are a follower of Christ and the Church.

"For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths." 2 Timothy 4:3-4

How does Paul's writing in this instance point to NO women priestess allowed? By your way of thinking, I can use the same scripture for Catholic teachers.

OMFG! Its not and never said it was. I'm saying that women priests is YOUR BELIEF, not a teaching found in scripture or tradition in the Chruch, which is just as important.

Women in the Priesthood

Gen. 3:15; Luke 1:26-55; John 19:26; Rev. 12:1- Mary is God's greatest creation, was the closest person to Jesus, and yet Jesus did not choose her to become a priest. God chose only men to be priests to reflect the complimentarity of the sexes. Just as women give forth natural life, men (as priests) give forth supernatural life. Women also participate in giving supernatural life by bringing forth priests from their wombs.

Judges 17:10; 18:19 ? this is why fatherhood and priesthood have always been inseparable. ?Stay with me, and be to me a father and a priest.? Women cannot be priests because women cannot be fathers.

Mark 16:9; Luke 7: 37-50; John 8:3-11 - Jesus allowed women to uniquely join in His mission, exalting them above cultural norms. His decision not to ordain women had nothing to do with culture. The Gospel writers are also clear that women participated in Jesus' ministry and, unlike men, never betrayed Jesus. Women have always been held with the highest regard in the Church (e.g., the Church's greatest saint and model of faith is a woman; the Church's constant teaching on the dignity of motherhood; the Church's understanding of humanity as being the Bride united to Christ, etc.).

Mark 14:17,20; Luke 22:14 - the language "the twelve" and "apostles" shows Jesus commissioned the Eucharistic priesthood by giving holy orders only to men.

Gen. 14:10; Heb. 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:15,17 - Jesus, the Son of God, is both priest and King after the priest-king Melchizedek. Jesus' priesthood embodies both Kingship and Sonship.

Gen. 22:9-13 - as foreshadowed, God chose our redemption to be secured by the sacrificial love that the Son gives to the Father.

Matt. 26:26; Mark 14:22; Luke 22:19 - because the priest acts in persona Christi in the offering to the Father, the priest cannot be a woman.

Mark 3:13 - Jesus selected the apostles "as He desired," according to His will, and not according to the demands of His culture. Because Jesus acted according to His will which was perfectly united to that of the Father, one cannot criticize Jesus' selection of men to be His priests without criticizing God.

John 20:22 - Jesus only breathed on the male apostles, the first bishops, giving them the authority to forgive and retain sins. In fact, the male priesthood of Christianity was a distinction from the priestesses of paganism that existed during these times. A female priesthood would be a reversion to non-Christian practices. The sacred tradition of a male priesthood has existed uncompromised in the Church for 2,000 years.

1 Cor. 14:34-35 - Paul says a woman is not permitted to preach the word of God in the Church. It has always been the tradition of the Church for the priest or deacon alone (an ordained male) to read and preach the Gospel.

1 Tim. 2:12 - Paul also says that a woman is not permitted to hold teaching authority in the Church. Can you imagine how much Mary, the Mother of God, would have been able to teach Christians about Jesus her Son in the Church? Yet, she was not permitted to hold such teaching authority in the Church.

Rom. 16:1-2 - while many Protestants point to this verse denounce the Church's tradition of a male priesthood, deaconesses, like Phoebe, were helpers to the priests (for example, preparing women for naked baptism so as to prevent scandal). But these helpers were never ordained.

Luke 2:36-37 - prophetesses, like Anna, were women who consecrated themselves to religious life, but were not ordained.

Isaiah 3:12 ? Isaiah complains that the priests of ancient Israel were having their authority usurped by women, and this was at the height of Israel?s covenant apostasy.

 

[UlricT]

I don't see you guys talking about Thomas' hand in the whole spread of christianity thing:
Scroll down to his later history: Thomas @ Wiki

The place he landed in India in AD 52:Kodungallur
This place is about 10mi from my home in India.

 

[Tom]

Jesus also started Mcdonalds, but he lacked marketing skills.

 

[Attrox]

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: AMDZen

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: piasabird
I like this quote, but I interpret it differently.

There's your problem

LoL

Yea, god forbid (litterally) anyone from interpretting things in their own way. Everyone should think the exact same way and interpret everything the exact same way. So thats why there's only one form of Christianity, and its in fact the only religion on the planet. Hmmm, it all makes sense now.

Well, the point of religion is that you accept its doctrine as true, is it not? That doesn't mean you are free to interpret it as how ever you want. I think this was one of the sources of the Protestant reformation. Calvin, I think, believed that members of the church should be able to interpret the scriptures as they thought, but that is not a part of Catholicism. A center institution of Catholicism is tradition. Catholic belief is derived from Councils, Social Teachings, the Catechism, etc..

Tell me how does all the sacrament as a requirement for salvation correspond to Christ's teaching in John 14:6?

 

[glenn beck]

blah blah blah, lets talk Mormons.....

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: glenn beck
blah blah blah, lets talk Mormons.....

They are the only one's god was letting into heaven. Until he realized it made his army too small and he was going to lose his battle against satan. The he started allowing in other faiths.