Catholics are not Christians?

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: DougK62
Show me.

Ok.
excerps
Believe/Love

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23 If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him


Baptise

John 3:5 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Exept a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

That doesn't specifically say what baptism is, just that it is necessary. I'll get back with you as I have to leave for a moment.

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

Well, in one statement Flyer says it's obvious that baptism is a requirement, hence the quote from the Bible. Next he says it's up to God on judgment day or somesuch.

Can't have it both ways.

I love the wishy-washy, fallacious logic of the religious fundamentals.

LOL, call it wishy-washy or whatever else you like, you're simply demonstrating how little you truly understand about the nature of G-d and His free gift of salvation. Ignorance is not a good foundation upon which to base one's arguments
The reason I said what I said is because I am not G-d so I can't know anything with 100% certainty because I am a doubtful, fallible man. All I can do is place my trust in Him and hope for the best!
Let me try this again, so perhaps you may understand:
G-d has laid out the path to salvation for all mankind. If you follow that path, you will be saved. In said path, it is stated that one must be baptized to receive salvation. I do not contradict this, nor do I doubt it. At the same time, you have to understand that G-d offers everyone a chance to be saved, even those who weren't baptized. I can see why this part would be confusing to you, because that would seem to imply that one does not need to be baptized to be saved, but you have to understand what baptism is before this conversation proceeds. Baptism is the washing away of sins *in the Holy Spirit*. Water is just a symbolic medium for the washing away of sins. If one is truly baptized, they are baptized *in the Holy Spirit*. If one accepts G-d's free gift of salvation, they can be baptized in the Holy Spirit regardless of whether or not they have been baptized in water.
It's quite simple, actually

Ok...so, in your opinion, baptism is symbolic and does not imply being dipped or immersed in some tributary.

Gotcha.

It has become quite obvious at this point that one cannot have a logical conversation with you regarding religion. You take single phrases out of context and turn them into the whole of an argument. This is not logical, nor is it fair to the person you are having a "discussion" with. I suggest you take some reading comprehension courses before continuing to post in this thread. Perhaps then you will be able to comprehend that which has been stated here, and perhaps even be enlightened by it! I wish you the best of luck, Conjur, and G-d bless you!

I'm just trying to pin down an answer to a simple question but you cannot do that.

Everything becomes a big grey area when you are at a loss.

No, Conjur, I've answered your question, you're just not capable of comprehending it. Either that or you just can't stand the fact that you are unable to show me up so you have to resort to such tactics as you have demonstrated here today.
Why are you still posting in this thread? You obviously have nothing to contribute, and are only here to stir up trouble. Can't you find something more useful to do with your time?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3


No, Conjur, I've answered your question, you're just not capable of comprehending it. Either that or you just can't stand the fact that you are unable to show me up so you have to resort to such tactics as you have demonstrated here today.
Why are you still posting in this thread? You obviously have nothing to contribute, and are only here to stir up trouble. Can't you find something more useful to do with your time?

Oh, and *you* have something to contribute with your distorted view of the Bible? HA!

And, besides, I really don't know why you took issue with my last post to you. All I did was summarize what you had said. It wasn't even a question. I said, in your opinion, one doesn't need to be immersed or dipped. To you, baptism is symbolic.

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: Jzero

It has become quite obvious at this point that one cannot have a logical conversation with you regarding religion.

Quit stonewalling. He is asking a simple question, and I have the same question. As someone who was just 'sprinkled' I am intrigued to think that God's Little Helpers here would dare to claim that an insufficient volume of water was used in order to allow me to achieve salvation.

The questions is quite simply this:
In your opinion, is IMMERSION IN WATER a prerequisite to salvation?

Yes or no? Conjur's not being a jerk, he's just asking for a straight answer.

::sigh:: it's too bad neither of you can read... I've already answered the question!!! The answer was quite detailed, in fact. Perhaps you should go back and re-read my post at 1:50 PM (or whatever it would be in your time zone).
You keep equating baptism with being immersed in water. This is not what true baptism is (as I've already explained). True baptism is a washing away of sins in the Holy Spirit. Water is just a physical medium to represent the washing away of sins.
When you can get over this *fallicy*, then the discussion can continue. Until then, you are doing nothing but making false assertions, based on a false premise.

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3


No, Conjur, I've answered your question, you're just not capable of comprehending it. Either that or you just can't stand the fact that you are unable to show me up so you have to resort to such tactics as you have demonstrated here today.
Why are you still posting in this thread? You obviously have nothing to contribute, and are only here to stir up trouble. Can't you find something more useful to do with your time?

Oh, and *you* have something to contribute with your distorted view of the Bible? HA!

And, besides, I really don't know why you took issue with my last post to you. All I did was summarize what you had said. It wasn't even a question. I said, in your opinion, one doesn't need to be immersed or dipped. To you, baptism is symbolic.

My distorted view of the Bible? This coming from someone who thinks that G-d is unrighteous and hates man? That's just about the most ironic thing I've ever read on these forums....
I'm not taking issue with any particular post of yours, I take issue with your methodology (that of over-simplifying the issue) which is present in every one of your posts thus far. You're just digging a deeper hole here, Conjur.

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3<brYou're confusing the word "and" with the word "or". And means both, or means either. Since "and" was used in this case, that means one is required to believe AND be baptized to receive salvation. Since this has already been established, it would be redundant to reiterate this in the very next sentence.

It is my contention that if someone is truly repentant of their sins and accepts G-d's free gift of salvation that G-d will weigh what is in their hearts and determine if they can receive said gift.

Baptism is the washing away of sins *in the Holy Spirit*. Water is just a symbolic medium for the washing away of sins. If one is truly baptized, they are baptized *in the Holy Spirit*. If one accepts G-d's free gift of salvation, they can be baptized in the Holy Spirit regardless of whether or not they have been baptized in water.

Which is it?

 

[Jzero]

You keep equating baptism with being immersed in water. This is not what true baptism is (as I've already explained). True baptism is a washing away of sins in the Holy Spirit. Water is just a physical medium to represent the washing away of sins.

So you are saying that immersion in water is NOT a prerequisite?
Because GTProjectX has declared quite the opposite - that's how this discussion came to be! You're taking the condescending tone but you don't even seem to recall what this discussion was about!

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX
btw, Catholics believe themselves to be Christians. This simply cannot be true from the verse I quoted above (Mark 16:16).

Catholics are sprinkled at birth or whenever one converts. The verse said "baptized". The word baptize comes from baptizo which means "immerse or dip". Not sprinkle.

So if they can't follow this simplest of commands to be saved, they cannot call themselves Christians. Plain as that.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3


No, Conjur, I've answered your question, you're just not capable of comprehending it. Either that or you just can't stand the fact that you are unable to show me up so you have to resort to such tactics as you have demonstrated here today.
Why are you still posting in this thread? You obviously have nothing to contribute, and are only here to stir up trouble. Can't you find something more useful to do with your time?

Oh, and *you* have something to contribute with your distorted view of the Bible? HA!

And, besides, I really don't know why you took issue with my last post to you. All I did was summarize what you had said. It wasn't even a question. I said, in your opinion, one doesn't need to be immersed or dipped. To you, baptism is symbolic.

My distorted view of the Bible? This coming from someone who thinks that G-d is unrighteous and hates man? That's just about the most ironic thing I've ever read on these forums....
I'm not taking issue with any particular post of yours, I take issue with your methodology (that of over-simplifying the issue) which is present in every one of your posts thus far. You're just digging a deeper hole here, Conjur.

Me? Digging a hole? How so?

And what's wrong with simplifying? You tend to ramble on and on and meaning gets lost in the abundance of verbiage. I'm just doing my fellow man a favor and providing Cliff Notes of your posts.

And, when did I ever say God is unrighteous and hates man? You're delusional, now.

And, yes, your view of the Bible is distorted. The Bible was NEVER meant to be taken literally. NEVER. Yet, you take it literally. Therefore, your view is distorted. You make things symbolic only when it suits the purposes of your own beliefs.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

OK, Flyermax2k3, time to chill so this thread won't turn into a flamefest and get locked. Ok?

By the way, give verses (in their correct context) if you will to support what you are saying.

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3<brYou're confusing the word "and" with the word "or". And means both, or means either. Since "and" was used in this case, that means one is required to believe AND be baptized to receive salvation. Since this has already been established, it would be redundant to reiterate this in the very next sentence.

It is my contention that if someone is truly repentant of their sins and accepts G-d's free gift of salvation that G-d will weigh what is in their hearts and determine if they can receive said gift.

Baptism is the washing away of sins *in the Holy Spirit*. Water is just a symbolic medium for the washing away of sins. If one is truly baptized, they are baptized *in the Holy Spirit*. If one accepts G-d's free gift of salvation, they can be baptized in the Holy Spirit regardless of whether or not they have been baptized in water.

Which is it?

There's no "which is it". Once again, you make false assertions based on a false premise. Those two statements are not contradictory, they tie-in quite nicely. Go read the Bible, seriously. Get an understanding of scripture before you try to debase it.

 

[Tom]

"This is not what true baptism is (as I've already explained). True baptism is a washing away of sins in the Holy Spirit. Water is just a physical medium to represent the washing away of sins."

I agree with you.

 

[Jzero]

Get an understanding of scripture before you try to debase it.

No one is debasing anything. I'm trying to get you to state your belief in clear terms. This has nothing to do with scripture, I'm asking you what you believe. Must you always be so defensive?

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX
OK, Flyermax2k3, time to chill so this thread won't turn into a flamefest and get locked. Ok?

By the way, give verses (in their correct context) if you will to support what you are saying.

Why is it assumed that I'm the one who's "making trouble" and trying to turn things into a flamefest? I certainly haven't called anyone names... I'm not the one making arguments out of ignorance here. Besides that, Christians don't take sides with avowed non-believers. Perhaps you should re-examine who you're accusing here...
It is pretty well known that baptism is to have one's sins washed away by the Holy Spirit. Water is just a symbolic medium for man's sake.

 

[Auggie]

As a practicing Catholic, I figured I'd let you all in on my take:

Catholics pray "to Mary" yes. But not for her to actually give us things. We feel that since God felt that Mary was indeed holy enough and pure enough to bear Jesus, that surely she carries some favor with God. Therefore we ask her to pray for us. "Our Lady, pray for us." We don't ask, "Oh Mary, please give me a thousand dollars!" Since that would infer that she herself had some kind of power, which she doesn't - God alone (Father Son or Holy Spirit) has the ability. She was simply one of the purest and best women ever to live, and therefore we pray to her, etc.

There's absolutely nothing in the bible that says otherwise, in fact, the bible refers to prayers ascending up to the hosts of heaven. I add this only because lots of Protestants do not understand why we pray to Saints and Mary. Just think of it as asking someone who you know God likes to put in a good word for you, sort of.

Peter was given the authority by Jesus himself during Jesus' lifetime, and since then the office of pope has ever gone on uninterrupted up to this day. To say the Orthadox church is the first church is somewhat ignorant, since the Orthadox church made a decision to split off from the Catholic church centuries ago, not the other way around. Put another way: the Orthadox church doesn't recognize as legitimate the line of leaders that Jesus himself apparently put in charge of the Church, so who split from who if that's the case? That is my understanding.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX
OK, Flyermax2k3, time to chill so this thread won't turn into a flamefest and get locked. Ok?

By the way, give verses (in their correct context) if you will to support what you are saying.

Why is it assumed that I'm the one who's "making trouble" and trying to turn things into a flamefest? I certainly haven't called anyone names... I'm not the one making arguments out of ignorance here. Besides that, Christians don't take sides with avowed non-believers. Perhaps you should re-examine who you're accusing here...
It is pretty well known that baptism is to have one's sins washed away by the Holy Spirit. Water is just a symbolic medium for man's sake.

I'll quote with the quote Jzero quoted:

It has become quite obvious at this point that one cannot have a logical conversation with you regarding religion.

That wasn't necessary, nor are we taught to give up on people if they don't understand.

By the way, you keep saying things, back them up.

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Get an understanding of scripture before you try to debase it.

No one is debasing anything. I'm trying to get you to state your belief in clear terms. This has nothing to do with scripture, I'm asking you what you believe. Must you always be so defensive?

See the post directly above yours I don't know how much clearer I can get..... I've stated the same thing several times already....

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: Auggie
Peter was given the authority by Jesus himself during Jesus' lifetime, and since then the office of pope has ever gone on uninterrupted up to this day.

Is that what you have been taught or what you have interpretted by yourself through reading the Bible. If it is the second of the two, can you provide scripture to back up your claim?

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: Jzero

Get an understanding of scripture before you try to debase it.

No one is debasing anything. I'm trying to get you to state your belief in clear terms. This has nothing to do with scripture, I'm asking you what you believe. Must you always be so defensive?

See the post directly above yours I don't know how much clearer I can get..... I've stated the same thing several times already....

A simple "yes" or "no" 30 posts ago would have saved you a lot of keystrokes. You really should stop thinking of anyone who asks you a question as attacking you.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Auggie
As a practicing Catholic, I figured I'd let you all in on my take:

Catholics pray "to Mary" yes. But not for her to actually give us things. We feel that since God felt that Mary was indeed holy enough and pure enough to bear Jesus, that surely she carries some favor with God. Therefore we ask her to pray for us. "Our Lady, pray for us." We don't ask, "Oh Mary, please give me a thousand dollars!" Since that would infer that she herself had some kind of power, which she doesn't - God alone (Father Son or Holy Spirit) has the ability. She was simply one of the purest and best women ever to live, and therefore we pray to her, etc.

Exactly, the prayers to Mary are more beseeching her to pray for the sinner. The Hail Mary even says it literally, "Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."

Catholics pray to Mary to intercede on their behalf. To pray to God for mercy on the sinner. They do not pray to Mary, herself, for forgiveness.

 

[cchen]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3
Come now, you didn't think I wouldn't notice this thread, did you? How's about I clear things up for you, Stefan, since you're asking about *my* comments.
It is my contention that Catholicism is not Christianity for many, many reasons - the chiefest among them being that the Catholic church preaches doctrines which have no Biblical basis (prayer to saints, moving the Sabbath to Sunday, confession of sins to men, purgatory, absolution of sins for money, worship of the Pope as a deity, etc). The Catholic church has also embraced several modern-day scientific theories which are contradictory to traditional Biblicaly-based beliefs.
You can't claim to be a Christian and then turn around and go pray to saints and worship the Pope. Thou shalt have no other G-ds before the L-rd, end of story.
One thing you have to take into consideration Re: my *opinion* on this is that we are living in the literal end times spoken of in the book of Revelation and that the Catholic church is part of the great deception which will lead men to their doom. You don't have to agree with me on this, just consider it when asking why I believe what I do.
I hope this clears things up a bit for you, and if you have any more questions, feel free to ask.

To my fan club: Think what you want to about me, you won't hurt my feelings and you certainly won't shake my faith. It's pretty obvious who the trolls are in this thread. Oh, and for the record: I'm just going to ignore all the attack posts in this thread. If you have any legitimate questions or would like to hold a civil discussion, I'll be more than happy to participate in a like manner.
Have a great day everyone, and G-d bless you all!

Many of the responses in this thread are hilarious.... first of all Catholics do not "worship the pope" or allow the "absolution of sins for money." Yes, this did happen in the past, but the Church did acknowledge the corruption of the past and apologized for it. Second, it would be nice if some people would speak fact about the Catholic church rather than supposition and rumor. Its ridiculous the amount of false information about Catholics here.

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX
OK, Flyermax2k3, time to chill so this thread won't turn into a flamefest and get locked. Ok?

By the way, give verses (in their correct context) if you will to support what you are saying.

Why is it assumed that I'm the one who's "making trouble" and trying to turn things into a flamefest? I certainly haven't called anyone names... I'm not the one making arguments out of ignorance here. Besides that, Christians don't take sides with avowed non-believers. Perhaps you should re-examine who you're accusing here...
It is pretty well known that baptism is to have one's sins washed away by the Holy Spirit. Water is just a symbolic medium for man's sake.

I'll quote with the quote Jzero quoted:

It has become quite obvious at this point that one cannot have a logical conversation with you regarding religion.

That wasn't necessary, nor are we taught to give up on people if they don't understand.

By the way, you keep saying things, back them up.

LOL, you've never had a "discussion" with Conjur before, have you?
Why are you making fellowship with non-believers to accuse a believer?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX
OK, Flyermax2k3, time to chill so this thread won't turn into a flamefest and get locked. Ok?

By the way, give verses (in their correct context) if you will to support what you are saying.

Why is it assumed that I'm the one who's "making trouble" and trying to turn things into a flamefest? I certainly haven't called anyone names... I'm not the one making arguments out of ignorance here. Besides that, Christians don't take sides with avowed non-believers. Perhaps you should re-examine who you're accusing here...
It is pretty well known that baptism is to have one's sins washed away by the Holy Spirit. Water is just a symbolic medium for man's sake.

I'll quote with the quote Jzero quoted:

It has become quite obvious at this point that one cannot have a logical conversation with you regarding religion.

That wasn't necessary, nor are we taught to give up on people if they don't understand.

By the way, you keep saying things, back them up.

LOL, you've never had a "discussion" with Conjur before, have you?
Why are you making fellowship with non-believers to accuse a believer?

Perhaps because this particular non-believer knows more about Catholicism and what the Bible truly intended than do you.

And, look at cchen's quote of your post above. You started off bashing Catholicism rather handily, eh?

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX
OK, Flyermax2k3, time to chill so this thread won't turn into a flamefest and get locked. Ok?

By the way, give verses (in their correct context) if you will to support what you are saying.

Why is it assumed that I'm the one who's "making trouble" and trying to turn things into a flamefest? I certainly haven't called anyone names... I'm not the one making arguments out of ignorance here. Besides that, Christians don't take sides with avowed non-believers. Perhaps you should re-examine who you're accusing here...
It is pretty well known that baptism is to have one's sins washed away by the Holy Spirit. Water is just a symbolic medium for man's sake.

I'll quote with the quote Jzero quoted:

It has become quite obvious at this point that one cannot have a logical conversation with you regarding religion.

That wasn't necessary, nor are we taught to give up on people if they don't understand.

By the way, you keep saying things, back them up.

LOL, you've never had a "discussion" with Conjur before, have you?
Why are you making fellowship with non-believers to accuse a believer?

Perhaps because this particular non-believer knows more about Catholicism and what the Bible truly intended than do you.

And, look at cchen's quote of your post above. You started off bashing Catholicism rather handily, eh?

Believe whatever you like about me, Conjur. I know I won't change your opinion.
Re: my "bashing" Catholicism: what's your point? I believe Catholicism is evil, and extra-biblical. I doubt I'll convince anyone here of my beliefs - most people are far too stubborn (myself included) to allow their precious opinion to be changed by someone else's statement of belief.
Let me put it simply: there is no *Biblical* basis for many things that the Catholic church teaches. This is a fact. You show me the verse in the Bible that says man should pray to *ANYONE* but G-d. Praying to Mary because she's believed to be better than everyone else is the exact same thing as worshipping her as a deity. If you can't see that, I feel sorry for you because you have been deceived

 

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: DougK62
Show me.

Ok.
excerps
Believe/Love

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23 If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him


Baptise

John 3:5 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Exept a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

That doesn't specifically say what baptism is, just that it is necessary. I'll get back with you as I have to leave for a moment.

Nice quotes, but none of them are definitions.

So where does the Bible define what "baptism" is?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3
Believe whatever you like about me, Conjur. I know I won't change your opinion.
Re: my "bashing" Catholicism: what's your point? I believe Catholicism is evil, and extra-biblical. I doubt I'll convince anyone here of my beliefs - most people are far too stubborn (myself included) to allow their precious opinion to be changed by someone else's statement of belief.
Let me put it simply: there is no *Biblical* basis for many things that the Catholic church teaches. This is a fact. You show me the verse in the Bible that says man should pray to *ANYONE* but G-d. Praying to Mary because she's believed to be better than everyone else is the exact same thing as worshipping her as a deity. If you can't see that, I feel sorry for you because you have been deceived

You see, again, that's where your distorted view of the Bible comes into play. Sure, the Catholic church is not "pure" to the Bible. But, then again, no religion was ever meant to be!

The Bible is a compendium of stories meant to guide man in a spiritual life that will lead to an ultimate redemption and life in Heaven.

It's not meant to be a checklist of things to do, well, except the Ten Commandments. It's also not a checklist of things not to do by virtue of that thing's exclusion from mention in the Bible.