Catholics are not Christians?

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX
OK, Flyermax2k3, time to chill so this thread won't turn into a flamefest and get locked. Ok?

By the way, give verses (in their correct context) if you will to support what you are saying.

Why is it assumed that I'm the one who's "making trouble" and trying to turn things into a flamefest? I certainly haven't called anyone names... I'm not the one making arguments out of ignorance here. Besides that, Christians don't take sides with avowed non-believers. Perhaps you should re-examine who you're accusing here...
It is pretty well known that baptism is to have one's sins washed away by the Holy Spirit. Water is just a symbolic medium for man's sake.

I'll quote with the quote Jzero quoted:

It has become quite obvious at this point that one cannot have a logical conversation with you regarding religion.

That wasn't necessary, nor are we taught to give up on people if they don't understand.

By the way, you keep saying things, back them up.

LOL, you've never had a "discussion" with Conjur before, have you?
Why are you making fellowship with non-believers to accuse a believer?

Ah - this is classic. He's not making fellowship with "non-believers" to accuse a "believer". It seems to me that he's making fellowship with "rational arguers" to accuse a "hostile moron".

Do you get nose bleeds waaaaay up there? Believe it or not, but there are a lot of REAL Christians that take offense at things that you say.

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3
Believe whatever you like about me, Conjur. I know I won't change your opinion.
Re: my "bashing" Catholicism: what's your point? I believe Catholicism is evil, and extra-biblical. I doubt I'll convince anyone here of my beliefs - most people are far too stubborn (myself included) to allow their precious opinion to be changed by someone else's statement of belief.
Let me put it simply: there is no *Biblical* basis for many things that the Catholic church teaches. This is a fact. You show me the verse in the Bible that says man should pray to *ANYONE* but G-d. Praying to Mary because she's believed to be better than everyone else is the exact same thing as worshipping her as a deity. If you can't see that, I feel sorry for you because you have been deceived

You see, again, that's where your distorted view of the Bible comes into play. Sure, the Catholic church is not "pure" to the Bible. But, then again, no religion was ever meant to be!

The Bible is a compendium of stories meant to guide man in a spiritual life that will lead to an ultimate redemption and life in Heaven.

It's not meant to be a checklist of things to do, well, except the Ten Commandments. It's also not a checklist of things not to do by virtue of that thing's exclusion from mention in the Bible.

Dude, you're such a hypocrite it's not even funny. *My* distorted view of the Bible???!!!
Please, Conjur, explain to me how your interpretation of the Bible is any more valid than mine, especially since you don't even believe what the Bible says!!!!!!!!!!!
There's no point in arguing with you, I give up. Infer whatever meaning into my statements you like, and then bash me for it - fine. You still haven't proven a darn thing, other than how much you hate me.
As much as I despise your beliefs, I still love you! G-d bless you Conjur! I hope He will stop hardening your heart and turn it soft so that you can experience life with the same wonder and joy that I do

 

[luv2chill]

Hey Flyermax2k3, have you ever thought just for a minute that perhaps debating religion isn't your strong suit? You may believe what you do with conviction, but your attempts to convince others always seem to turn into burning wreckage.

Go have a beer or smoke a little cannabis (nothing wrong with that, right?).

l2c

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: DougK62

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX
OK, Flyermax2k3, time to chill so this thread won't turn into a flamefest and get locked. Ok?

By the way, give verses (in their correct context) if you will to support what you are saying.

Why is it assumed that I'm the one who's "making trouble" and trying to turn things into a flamefest? I certainly haven't called anyone names... I'm not the one making arguments out of ignorance here. Besides that, Christians don't take sides with avowed non-believers. Perhaps you should re-examine who you're accusing here...
It is pretty well known that baptism is to have one's sins washed away by the Holy Spirit. Water is just a symbolic medium for man's sake.

I'll quote with the quote Jzero quoted:

It has become quite obvious at this point that one cannot have a logical conversation with you regarding religion.

That wasn't necessary, nor are we taught to give up on people if they don't understand.

By the way, you keep saying things, back them up.

LOL, you've never had a "discussion" with Conjur before, have you?
Why are you making fellowship with non-believers to accuse a believer?

Ah - this is classic. He's not making fellowship with "non-believers" to accuse a "believer". It seems to me that he's making fellowship with "rational arguers" to accuse a "hostile moron".

Do you get nose bleeds waaaaay up there? Believe it or not, but there are a lot of REAL Christians that take offense at things that you say.

The fact that "real Christians" disagree with me only solidifies my faith that we are living in the end times, and the whole world has been deceived. Look around you man, it's all coming down around our heads and no one realizes it.
I guess we'll only find out on Judgment Day. Until then, G-d bless you, and I hope G-d will enlighten you as He has me. Call me a fool and a heretic and whatever else you like - we won't know until Judgment Day who's right and who's wrong.
Jesus said that his followers would be persecuted and "hated among men" for their beliefs. I am happy to bear my cross in support of the word of G-d and the teachings of Yeshua HaMashiach "Salvation the Messiah."
Can you say the same? You can sit there and feel comfortable in your apostate "Christianity", but that's just not for me.
Anyway, G-d bless you all, and I sincerely hope that you can all know the truth of Yeshua HaMashiach before the Day of Judgment.

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: luv2chill
Hey Flyermax2k3, have you ever thought just for a minute that perhaps debating religion isn't your strong suit? You may believe what you do with conviction, but your attempts to convince others always seem to turn into burning wreckage.

Go have a beer or smoke a little cannabis (nothing wrong with that, right?).

l2c

I'm not trying to convince anyone of my beliefs. As I've said many, many times on these forums: I do my preaching IRL face-to-face, not over teh intarweb.
As for your cute little beer and weed comment: what's your point? Hmmm? Care to elaborate a bit? Nah, save your breath. Your accusations don't phase me.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

You see, again, that's where your distorted view of the Bible comes into play. Sure, the Catholic church is not "pure" to the Bible. But, then again, no religion was ever meant to be!

The Bible is a compendium of stories meant to guide man in a spiritual life that will lead to an ultimate redemption and life in Heaven.

It's not meant to be a checklist of things to do, well, except the Ten Commandments. It's also not a checklist of things not to do by virtue of that thing's exclusion from mention in the Bible.

Dude, you're such a hypocrite it's not even funny. *My* distorted view of the Bible???!!!
Please, Conjur, explain to me how your interpretation of the Bible is any more valid than mine, especially since you don't even believe what the Bible says!!!!!!!!!!!
There's no point in arguing with you, I give up. Infer whatever meaning into my statements you like, and then bash me for it - fine. You still haven't proven a darn thing, other than how much you hate me.
As much as I despise your beliefs, I still love you! G-d bless you Conjur! I hope He will stop hardening your heart and turn it soft so that you can experience life with the same wonder and joy that I do

Hmm...

12 years of Catholic-school education.
Received the following sacraments:
  Baptism
  Eucharist
  Reconciliation
  Confirmation
  Marriage
Study of the scriptures when in Catholic high school


Just because I no longer believe in God or that belief in Jesus means I'll go to Heaven doesn't mean that I don't know what the Bible is about. It's stories, parables, symbolism, etc. Sure, there are historical portions that have provided us with a great amount of knowledge of how people lived centuries ago but that's "extree".

The Bible is a not a map. It's not a literal set of directions.

It's a guide.

Believe in the teachings of the Bible and receive eternity in Heaven with Christ and God and all of the Saints and Angels.  Those teachings being: Keep God first in mind and heart, love thy neighbor, follow the commandments, etc.  Spurn the teachings and show disrespect toward your fellow man and spend an eternity in Hell (a spiritual wasteland.)

Just because the Catholic church has added all sorts of man-made rules and restrictions does not lessen the fact that all Catholics follow the teachings of the Bible.

You, Flyermax2k3, however, think of the Bible in literal terms. You believe the first life on earth was Adam and Eve living in some Garden of Eden and were cast out after eating the forbidden fruit after Eve was tempted by a serpent.  You fail to see that that is symbolism.  People who lived 3000 years ago could not explain things otherwise.

 

[BigToque]

What I've gotten from this thread (and talking to my GF - a practicing Catholic) is that the first Christian church was started by Jesus and Jesus appointed Peter as the first Pope.

Some time later (300 years from what was mentioned here), this "first Christian church" split apart into Catholic and Orthodox. The Catholic Church is the decendent church of the "first Christian Church". The Orthodox did not believe all the rules or whatnot of the Catholic church, which is why they split.

Even later on, the Catholics split into the Roman Catholic and Ukranian Catholic. Again, the Ukranian Catholics split because they did not agree with everything. The Roman Catholic Church is still the true decendent of the "first Christian Church" (Peter's Church).

------------------

Now, from what I understand about Baptism, is that it is to cleanse the recipient of "Original Sin". Jesus died to free people of the sins of Man that they would have over their lifetime, but does not free all newborns from the "Original Sin" of man. There is a distinction between Sin and Original Sin.

------------------

Anyway, I enjoy reading everything here. Between asking questions here and asking my GF, I can get a much better understanding of how everything is the way that it is.

 

[luv2chill]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: luv2chill
Hey Flyermax2k3, have you ever thought just for a minute that perhaps debating religion isn't your strong suit? You may believe what you do with conviction, but your attempts to convince others always seem to turn into burning wreckage.

Go have a beer or smoke a little cannabis (nothing wrong with that, right?).

l2c

I'm not trying to convince anyone of my beliefs. As I've said many, many times on these forums: I do my preaching IRL face-to-face, not over teh intarweb.
As for your cute little beer and weed comment: what's your point? Hmmm? Care to elaborate a bit? Nah, save your breath. Your accusations don't phase me.

Well you seem to get so very "worked up" (euphamism) in your posts that it seems almost a waste of your energy. I imagine you getting up from the computer in utter discouragement and disgust because you can't seem to get your point across. Hardly seems worth it?!

As for my cute comment, I was referring to your reply in this thread. If you weren't being serious in making that comment then I apologise... and here I thought we had found some common ground!

l2c

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

You see, again, that's where your distorted view of the Bible comes into play. Sure, the Catholic church is not "pure" to the Bible. But, then again, no religion was ever meant to be!

The Bible is a compendium of stories meant to guide man in a spiritual life that will lead to an ultimate redemption and life in Heaven.

It's not meant to be a checklist of things to do, well, except the Ten Commandments. It's also not a checklist of things not to do by virtue of that thing's exclusion from mention in the Bible.

Dude, you're such a hypocrite it's not even funny. *My* distorted view of the Bible???!!!
Please, Conjur, explain to me how your interpretation of the Bible is any more valid than mine, especially since you don't even believe what the Bible says!!!!!!!!!!!
There's no point in arguing with you, I give up. Infer whatever meaning into my statements you like, and then bash me for it - fine. You still haven't proven a darn thing, other than how much you hate me.
As much as I despise your beliefs, I still love you! G-d bless you Conjur! I hope He will stop hardening your heart and turn it soft so that you can experience life with the same wonder and joy that I do

Hmm...

12 years of Catholic-school education.
Received the following sacraments:
  Baptism
  Eucharist
  Reconciliation
  Confirmation
  Marriage
Study of the scriptures when in Catholic high school


Just because I no longer believe in God or that belief in Jesus means I'll go to Heaven doesn't mean that I don't know what the Bible is about. It's stories, parables, symbolism, etc. Sure, there are historical portions that have provided us with a great amount of knowledge of how people lived centuries ago but that's "extree".

The Bible is a not a map. It's not a literal set of directions.

It's a guide.

Believe in the teachings of the Bible and receive eternity in Heaven with Christ and God and all of the Saints and Angels.  Those teachings being: Keep God first in mind and heart, love thy neighbor, follow the commandments, etc.  Spurn the teachings and show disrespect toward your fellow man and spend an eternity in Hell (a spiritual wasteland.)

Just because the Catholic church has added all sorts of man-made rules and restrictions does not lessen the fact that all Catholics follow the teachings of the Bible.

You, Flyermax2k3, however, think of the Bible in literal terms. You believe the first life on earth was Adam and Eve living in some Garden of Eden and were cast out after eating the forbidden fruit after Eve was tempted by a serpent.  You fail to see that that is symbolism.  People who lived 3000 years ago could not explain things otherwise.

Conjur, you're absolutely right in your assessment of me. I do believe that the word of G-d is literal. Why do you assert that this is a *bad* thing?
Once again, Catholicism is not Christianity, it is an apostate religion that worships Lucifer. There, I said it. Catholics worship Satan.
I'm done with this thread. I won't be responding again. ::and the crowd cheers:: Have fun having a "debate" with people who basically agree with you. Oh, how much fun that must be!

Once again, good luck, and G-d bless you!

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

You see, again, that's where your distorted view of the Bible comes into play. Sure, the Catholic church is not "pure" to the Bible. But, then again, no religion was ever meant to be!

The Bible is a compendium of stories meant to guide man in a spiritual life that will lead to an ultimate redemption and life in Heaven.

It's not meant to be a checklist of things to do, well, except the Ten Commandments. It's also not a checklist of things not to do by virtue of that thing's exclusion from mention in the Bible.

Dude, you're such a hypocrite it's not even funny. *My* distorted view of the Bible???!!!
Please, Conjur, explain to me how your interpretation of the Bible is any more valid than mine, especially since you don't even believe what the Bible says!!!!!!!!!!!
There's no point in arguing with you, I give up. Infer whatever meaning into my statements you like, and then bash me for it - fine. You still haven't proven a darn thing, other than how much you hate me.
As much as I despise your beliefs, I still love you! G-d bless you Conjur! I hope He will stop hardening your heart and turn it soft so that you can experience life with the same wonder and joy that I do

Hmm...

12 years of Catholic-school education.
Received the following sacraments:
  Baptism
  Eucharist
  Reconciliation
  Confirmation
  Marriage
Study of the scriptures when in Catholic high school


Just because I no longer believe in God or that belief in Jesus means I'll go to Heaven doesn't mean that I don't know what the Bible is about. It's stories, parables, symbolism, etc. Sure, there are historical portions that have provided us with a great amount of knowledge of how people lived centuries ago but that's "extree".

The Bible is a not a map. It's not a literal set of directions.

It's a guide.

Believe in the teachings of the Bible and receive eternity in Heaven with Christ and God and all of the Saints and Angels.  Those teachings being: Keep God first in mind and heart, love thy neighbor, follow the commandments, etc.  Spurn the teachings and show disrespect toward your fellow man and spend an eternity in Hell (a spiritual wasteland.)

Just because the Catholic church has added all sorts of man-made rules and restrictions does not lessen the fact that all Catholics follow the teachings of the Bible.

You, Flyermax2k3, however, think of the Bible in literal terms. You believe the first life on earth was Adam and Eve living in some Garden of Eden and were cast out after eating the forbidden fruit after Eve was tempted by a serpent.  You fail to see that that is symbolism.  People who lived 3000 years ago could not explain things otherwise.

Conjur, you're absolutely right in your assessment of me. I do believe that the word of G-d is literal. Why do you assert that this is a *bad* thing?
Once again, Catholicism is not Christianity, it is an apostate religion that worships Lucifer. There, I said it. Catholics worship Satan.
I'm done with this thread. I won't be responding again. ::and the crowd cheers:: Have fun having a "debate" with people who basically agree with you. Oh, how much fun that must be!

Once again, good luck, and G-d bless you!

Yeah...in all of my 12 years in Catholic school and in receiving all of the sacraments we were secretly sacrificing virgins while chanting lyrics to Black Sabbath songs while standing in the middle of a pentagram.

You are simply fantastic, flyermax2k3. Fantastic.


Main Entry: 1fan·tas·tic

1 a : based on fantasy : not real b : conceived or seemingly conceived by unrestrained fancy c : so extreme as to challenge belief : UNBELIEVABLE; broadly : exceedingly large or great

 

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: DougK62

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX
OK, Flyermax2k3, time to chill so this thread won't turn into a flamefest and get locked. Ok?

By the way, give verses (in their correct context) if you will to support what you are saying.

Why is it assumed that I'm the one who's "making trouble" and trying to turn things into a flamefest? I certainly haven't called anyone names... I'm not the one making arguments out of ignorance here. Besides that, Christians don't take sides with avowed non-believers. Perhaps you should re-examine who you're accusing here...
It is pretty well known that baptism is to have one's sins washed away by the Holy Spirit. Water is just a symbolic medium for man's sake.

I'll quote with the quote Jzero quoted:

It has become quite obvious at this point that one cannot have a logical conversation with you regarding religion.

That wasn't necessary, nor are we taught to give up on people if they don't understand.

By the way, you keep saying things, back them up.

LOL, you've never had a "discussion" with Conjur before, have you?
Why are you making fellowship with non-believers to accuse a believer?

Ah - this is classic. He's not making fellowship with "non-believers" to accuse a "believer". It seems to me that he's making fellowship with "rational arguers" to accuse a "hostile moron".

Do you get nose bleeds waaaaay up there? Believe it or not, but there are a lot of REAL Christians that take offense at things that you say.

The fact that "real Christians" disagree with me only solidifies my faith that we are living in the end times, and the whole world has been deceived. Look around you man, it's all coming down around our heads and no one realizes it.
I guess we'll only find out on Judgment Day. Until then, G-d bless you, and I hope G-d will enlighten you as He has me. Call me a fool and a heretic and whatever else you like - we won't know until Judgment Day who's right and who's wrong.
Jesus said that his followers would be persecuted and "hated among men" for their beliefs. I am happy to bear my cross in support of the word of G-d and the teachings of Yeshua HaMashiach "Salvation the Messiah."
Can you say the same? You can sit there and feel comfortable in your apostate "Christianity", but that's just not for me.
Anyway, G-d bless you all, and I sincerely hope that you can all know the truth of Yeshua HaMashiach before the Day of Judgment.

Riiiiiiiight. I find it funny how your "signs" of "end times" have been happening since man has been on the earth

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: DougK62

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: DougK62
Show me.

Ok.
excerps
Believe/Love

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23 If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him


Baptise

John 3:5 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Exept a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

That doesn't specifically say what baptism is, just that it is necessary. I'll get back with you as I have to leave for a moment.

Nice quotes, but none of them are definitions.

So where does the Bible define what "baptism" is?

Well, since the Bible isn't a dictionary, there are no strict definitions. So what do we have to go by then? Example. So what are some examples of baptism? I will underline my comments on the verses.

MATT 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire
Here is John baptizing people for the preparation of Christ.

MARK 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
Here is John again baptising people in the Jordan River. An example of baptism. You are correct to say this is John's baptism, not Jesus's since clearly a distinction was made between the two by John himself. So what is Jesus's baptism?

JOHN 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
JOHN 4:1 When therefore the LORD knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
So here we see that Jesus also baptised (or had other people baptise for him). There isn't a distinction between what physically took place in contrast to John's baptisms we must assume it was the same. If it was different we would have been told.

ACTS 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
This brings up the point of the Holy Ghost that John stated Jesus would baptise with. We are to be baptised the same way as John did because of my previous point, and in this case now we are to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. By doing this we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: DougK62

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

The fact that "real Christians" disagree with me only solidifies my faith that we are living in the end times, and the whole world has been deceived. Look around you man, it's all coming down around our heads and no one realizes it.
I guess we'll only find out on Judgment Day. Until then, G-d bless you, and I hope G-d will enlighten you as He has me. Call me a fool and a heretic and whatever else you like - we won't know until Judgment Day who's right and who's wrong.
Jesus said that his followers would be persecuted and "hated among men" for their beliefs. I am happy to bear my cross in support of the word of G-d and the teachings of Yeshua HaMashiach "Salvation the Messiah."
Can you say the same? You can sit there and feel comfortable in your apostate "Christianity", but that's just not for me.
Anyway, G-d bless you all, and I sincerely hope that you can all know the truth of Yeshua HaMashiach before the Day of Judgment.

Riiiiiiiight. I find it funny how your "signs" of "end times" have been happening since man has been on the earth

He's gotta reinforce his beliefs lest his life be a complete waste of effort, no?

 

[BigToque]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

You see, again, that's where your distorted view of the Bible comes into play. Sure, the Catholic church is not "pure" to the Bible. But, then again, no religion was ever meant to be!

The Bible is a compendium of stories meant to guide man in a spiritual life that will lead to an ultimate redemption and life in Heaven.

It's not meant to be a checklist of things to do, well, except the Ten Commandments. It's also not a checklist of things not to do by virtue of that thing's exclusion from mention in the Bible.

Dude, you're such a hypocrite it's not even funny. *My* distorted view of the Bible???!!!
Please, Conjur, explain to me how your interpretation of the Bible is any more valid than mine, especially since you don't even believe what the Bible says!!!!!!!!!!!
There's no point in arguing with you, I give up. Infer whatever meaning into my statements you like, and then bash me for it - fine. You still haven't proven a darn thing, other than how much you hate me.
As much as I despise your beliefs, I still love you! G-d bless you Conjur! I hope He will stop hardening your heart and turn it soft so that you can experience life with the same wonder and joy that I do

Hmm...

12 years of Catholic-school education.
Received the following sacraments:
  Baptism
  Eucharist
  Reconciliation
  Confirmation
  Marriage
Study of the scriptures when in Catholic high school


Just because I no longer believe in God or that belief in Jesus means I'll go to Heaven doesn't mean that I don't know what the Bible is about. It's stories, parables, symbolism, etc. Sure, there are historical portions that have provided us with a great amount of knowledge of how people lived centuries ago but that's "extree".

The Bible is a not a map. It's not a literal set of directions.

It's a guide.

Believe in the teachings of the Bible and receive eternity in Heaven with Christ and God and all of the Saints and Angels.  Those teachings being: Keep God first in mind and heart, love thy neighbor, follow the commandments, etc.  Spurn the teachings and show disrespect toward your fellow man and spend an eternity in Hell (a spiritual wasteland.)

Just because the Catholic church has added all sorts of man-made rules and restrictions does not lessen the fact that all Catholics follow the teachings of the Bible.

You, Flyermax2k3, however, think of the Bible in literal terms. You believe the first life on earth was Adam and Eve living in some Garden of Eden and were cast out after eating the forbidden fruit after Eve was tempted by a serpent.  You fail to see that that is symbolism.  People who lived 3000 years ago could not explain things otherwise.

Jesus gave Peter and all successive Popes the authoirty to create these rules (Whatever they may be). I don't know exactly how I feel about this. I know that they cannot just add anything they want. Anything that is added must be approved of by many people. That said, I'm sure there are some things that are in there that are the result of corruption (but I don't know anything about anything that has been added, so I can't really say much)

I'm not sure why I even posted this

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Stefan

Jesus gave Peter and all successive Popes the authoirty to create these rules (Whatever they may be). I don't know exactly how I feel about this. I know that they cannot just add anything they want. Anything that is added must be approved of by many people. That said, I'm sure there are some things that are in there that are the result of corruption (but I don't know anything about anything that has been added, so I can't really say much)

I'm not sure why I even posted this

In that case, go home, say 10 Hail Marys and then take a nap.

 

[blakeatwork]

As an afterthought..

I found Memnoch the Devil to be a really good interpretation of what the God figure is. the way he was presented was different, especially having grown up in a Roman Catholic house (Irish by the way...), and learning about God/Christ/Holy Spirit being one entity vs 3 distinct individuals.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: Stefan
Jesus gave Peter and all successive Popes the authoirty to create these rules (Whatever they may be).

Stefan I'm sorry that that is what you are getting out of this thread as that is not stated anywhere in the Bible.

 

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3
...

Once again, Catholicism is not Christianity, it is an apostate religion that worships Lucifer. There, I said it. Catholics worship Satan.

...

WOW.

You seriously need some help of the professional kind. You remind me of a whacked-out conspiracy theorist that holds a big "end of the world is near" sign outside of the local mall.

 

[Netopia]

I've not read this entire thread... but I'm going to chime in on a couple of points:

Is baptism required for salvation? I'm going to answer that with a question....

There was a thief on another cross to the side of Jesus. He simply said "Remember me when you come into your Kingdom"... and Jesus replied "Surely today you will be with me in paradise." At what point after showing faith in Jesus did this thief go through a baptism by immersion or any sort of physical baptism at all?

Are Catholics Christians?

I don't know... and neither do any of you! Ask the Catholic in question. Most Catholics (and most Protestants for that matter) don't really know exactly what they believe or why. I was raised Catholic and as far as I can tell, I was saved at around 7 years old at the time I went through the Catholic sacrament of First Communion. I took it all seriously. Went on from there to have a life of drinking and drugging and sleeping around... but always felt the presence of God and "thought" that everyone else did too... but I was wrong. I was saved as a Catholic, but didn't really get any growth as a Christian until I was in my early 20's and really started reading the Bible. Ultimately I left the Church because there were just TOOOO many contradictions between what I had been taught and what I could see plainly in Scripture. But... the fact remains that the work of the Holy Spirit was done on me WHILE I was a Catholic.

Christianity isn't a denomination. It isn't even a religion.... it's a personal relationship that one has between themselves and the God who loved them sooooo much that He took on a body made of flesh and suffered so that we would have a chance to live with Him forever. Everything beyond that relationship is a side issue. None of us can look into a man's heart and know that he is or isn't saved. There have been plenty of people over the years who talked a good talk but in the end were shown to be frauds.... conversely, I would bet that there are miserable, kranky people who are none-the-less saved. Jesus Himself says that he assures us that not all who claim to be His are His. He says that there will be those who will tell Him that they did works in His name... miracles and prophesizing... but He will say "Away from me... I never knew you". Again... it's NOT about the works we do, but the relationship we have.


Does Catholic mean true?

Nope... it means Universal. I'm part of the catholic church (small "c") ... the universal church... the one that God alone knows all of the members of.

Joe

 

[PlatinumGold]

GTProjectx,



again, your last question to me concerning "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god" could mean many things depending on what your premises are.

the biggest problem i have in these discussions is that most christians are unwilling to believe that they approach the scriptures with any premises at all.

EVERYONE approaches EVERYTHING they encounter with some premises and those premises are as telling in the definitions as other things such as reading out of context etc.

again, understanding of biblical matters does not come from within or from a 2nd party human being, they ONLY come thru the inspiration of the holy spirit, without being born again you CANNOT perceive spiritual things.

that's a cop out answer, but i also happen to believe it's the truth. it's not a statement of superiority, all are chosen, but they are chosen in GOD'S time and not mans and just like in the parable with the various vineyard workers beginning work at different times and all receiving the same wage, WHEN you encounter god has NOTHING to do with the rewards or end results. it's just god's time god's way.

 

[Netopia]

Jesus gave Peter and all successive Popes the authoirty to create these rules (Whatever they may be).

Actually, NO... He didn't. That belief comes from taking single situation in the Bible and taking if VERY out of context.

Joe

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Netopia
I've not read this entire thread... but I'm going to chime in on a couple of points:

Is baptism required for salvation? I'm going to answer that with a question....

There was a thief on another cross to the side of Jesus. He simply said "Remember me when you come into your Kingdom"... and Jesus replied "Surely today you will be with me in paradise." At what point after showing faith in Jesus did this thief go through a baptism by immersion or any sort of physical baptism at all?

and here is a great example where something as small as a comma can make a HUGE difference in how we interpret text.

actually i'm not sure which version you quoted it in but you left out parts of the verse.

"surely, i say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise"

or

"Surely i say unto you, today you shall be with me in paradise"

as jesus himself wasn't in paradise that day, it's safe to assume that he meant the first of the 2 renderings.

 

[mugs]

How in the world did this thread reach 4 pages? Oh wait, I know.

Catholics ARE Christians in that they are followers of Jesus Christ. However, most Protestants/Presbyterians/etc (like GtPrOjEcTX and Flyermax2k3) don't believe Catholics will go to Heaven because of their distorted view of the Bible (focusing more on liturgy and rituals than a relationship with God). Most Protestants equate the term "Christian" with "Protestant" and "Catholic" with "Catholic." Most Protestants don't even identify themselves as Protestants, but rather as just Christians.

In summary, Catholics ARE Christians, but whether they will go to heaven (or even if Heaven exists) depends on whom you ask.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: Netopia
I've not read this entire thread... but I'm going to chime in on a couple of points:
Is baptism required for salvation? I'm going to answer that with a question....
There was a thief on another cross to the side of Jesus. He simply said "Remember me when you come into your Kingdom"... and Jesus replied "Surely today you will be with me in paradise." At what point after showing faith in Jesus did this thief go through a baptism by immersion or any sort of physical baptism at all?

Theif on the cross example. Here are the verses.

Luke 23
39: And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40: But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

So what is known of the two malefactors/thieves? Lets call the one that spoke first A and the second B.

A doubtfully questions Christ telling him to save himself and out of greed, himself.
B rebuked A, questioning why he doesn't fear his condition know what he has done and he's to die. B also knows he did wrong and repents. But most importantly B has a good understand of Christ and what he's done and he states, "this man has done nothing amiss". It is quite possible that this person who had a knowledge of Christ and his teaching was a previously good person and had been baptized.

But this is speculation. But now we see that b/c of thief B's previous of knowledge of Jesus, it was possible he lead a good life, was baptized but had fallen away, and Jesus forgave him on the cross, making him anew, sinless, with a ticket to heaven.

So it is possible, just not written, so either way, we can't use this example as an example of Christ admitting someone to heaven without being baptised (in water)

 

[BigToque]

Originally posted by: Netopia

Jesus gave Peter and all successive Popes the authoirty to create these rules (Whatever they may be).

Actually, NO... He didn't. That belief comes from taking single situation in the Bible and taking if VERY out of context.

Joe

Would that situation be this:

Matthew 16: 18-19

"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."

"I will give you the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven"