Catholics are not Christians?

[conjur]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX
Simplest of the simple. He told us that if we believe and are baptized we save be saved. Of course there is more to it then just that, but that is what the rest of the Bible is for (history, law, instruction, etc.).

To your argument that it doesn't say he that believeth not and isn't baptized shall be damned - I seriously doubt that every single thing that we can do to keep us from heaven would have to be listed there.

Another analogy (side note: I like to speak in analogies as I think it mimics Jesus teaching in parables)

Jane has a recipe.
It calls for sugar, flour, and eggs. She has to put all of these things in to get her desired result. The recipe doesn't say everything that should not be put in it however.

So...to go off of your logic there one could assume that the statement was, oh....*symbolic*???


It's not literal.

 

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: DougK62

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So right there he says it. "


No it doesn't. There are two things there, it says if you don't do one you'll be damned, but the one it says isn't baptism. So that statement alone does not say baptism is required.

It also doesn't define either term.

It also doesn't say that there is a cause and effect relationship, that salvation comes because a person does those things.

Bolded for emphasis. That's an important part that a lot of people can't grasp. Of course, since they can't understand it they'll just ignore it.

This goes along with my other post. Everything we need to know can't be in every spot of the Bible, that is why the whole Bible exists and builds off of itself. The two terms are defined in other places.

Show me.

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"You're confusing the word "and" with the word "or". And means both, or means either. Since "and" was used in this case, that means one is required to believe AND be baptized to receive salvation. Since this has already been established, it would be redundant to reiterate this in the very next sentence."



That makes no sense. The first sentence does not exclude other ways of being saved, and the second only lists one reason for being damned.

I thought the words "and" and "or" were quite elementary... There's nothing contradictory or confusing about the statement I made above. I fail to see where the confusion comes into play. Let's not get all anal here "the first sentence doesn't exclude...". The manner in which one can be saved is clearly laid out. There is only one path to salvation and that is through Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ). There is no other path. Can't get much clearer than that......

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

Ok...just making sure that God will damn someone to hell who, on their deathbed, is truly repentant but was never baptized.

Gotcha.

Wow...what a benevolent God.

G-d is just. I trust His judgment before I'll trust yours. One thing you non-believers need to understand: G-d is righteous. If He were to ignore the unrighteousness of the world He would not be righteous. G-d cannot be a hypocrite, so He cannot let the sins of the wicked go unpunished. At the same time, He offers every man, woman, and child who has ever lived on this earth a chance for salvation. It is my contention that if someone is truly repentant of their sins and accepts G-d's free gift of salvation that G-d will weigh what is in their hearts and determine if they can receive said gift. You don't get to make that choice, nor do you know the results of what happens after someone dies in your deathbed scenario - you simply assume the worst.

Ok...so baptism, then, is *not* a requirement.

Gotcha.

note that Flyermax said it was his contention and his belief. This is us showing our humanity as we would love to believe that our loved ones will also be saved b/c we believe they are good ppl and they believe what they are doing is right. End story? If we do what he says we can have confidence in our salvation. If we don't we can only hope for the best.

 

[Stojakapimp]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

Ok...just making sure that God will damn someone to hell who, on their deathbed, is truly repentant but was never baptized.

Gotcha.

Wow...what a benevolent God.

G-d is just. I trust His judgment before I'll trust yours. One thing you non-believers need to understand: G-d is righteous. If He were to ignore the unrighteousness of the world He would not be righteous. G-d cannot be a hypocrite, so He cannot let the sins of the wicked go unpunished. At the same time, He offers every man, woman, and child who has ever lived on this earth a chance for salvation. It is my contention that if someone is truly repentant of their sins and accepts G-d's free gift of salvation that G-d will weigh what is in their hearts and determine if they can receive said gift. You don't get to make that choice, nor do you know the results of what happens after someone dies in your deathbed scenario - you simply assume the worst.

Ok...so baptism, then, is *not* a requirement.

Gotcha.

maybe we should just make a checklist for you that you can go down and mark off anytime something like that happens.

That's how Western philosophy is nowadays. Everything is so laid out and explained...so logical

The fact is, you can't know until the final judgement. You can say this or that, but you just can't know. I'm not gonna go around spouting off judgement that other people or even myself will recieve, but you can prepare yourself the best way you know how. And if you truly have faith in Christianity, and you know that Jesus commanded to get baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, then why wouldn't you do that?

 

[Jzero]

There is no other path. Can't get much clearer than that......

The question we are hung up on is:
Does said "path" include a swim through the Jordan River?

Seems to be some waffling over this item.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

Ok...just making sure that God will damn someone to hell who, on their deathbed, is truly repentant but was never baptized.

Gotcha.

Wow...what a benevolent God.

G-d is just. I trust His judgment before I'll trust yours. One thing you non-believers need to understand: G-d is righteous. If He were to ignore the unrighteousness of the world He would not be righteous. G-d cannot be a hypocrite, so He cannot let the sins of the wicked go unpunished. At the same time, He offers every man, woman, and child who has ever lived on this earth a chance for salvation. It is my contention that if someone is truly repentant of their sins and accepts G-d's free gift of salvation that G-d will weigh what is in their hearts and determine if they can receive said gift. You don't get to make that choice, nor do you know the results of what happens after someone dies in your deathbed scenario - you simply assume the worst.

Ok...so baptism, then, is *not* a requirement.

Gotcha.

note that Flyermax said it was his contention and his belief. This is us showing our humanity as we would love to believe that our loved ones will also be saved b/c we believe they are good ppl and they believe what they are doing is right. End story? If we do what he says we can have confidence in our salvation. If we don't we can only hope for the best.

Well, in one statement Flyer says it's obvious that baptism is a requirement, hence the quote from the Bible. Next he says it's up to God on judgment day or somesuch.

Can't have it both ways.

I love the wishy-washy, fallacious logic of the religious fundamentals.

 

[Nelmster]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
are you catholic then? i'm catholic and that's the whole point of confession. just as Jesus forgave sins, so he endowed that ability unto the first apostles. the priests are the successors to the apostles and still forgive sins just as the apostles did. otherwise, what's the point of going to confession? you could just tell whoever you offended that you were sorry and it'd all be over and done with.

I assure you I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, but I would be very interested in seeing verses from the Bible to back this up. It is heavily my understanding that forgiveness of sins comes only from acceptance of Jesus Christ - not from anyone or anything else.

One of the concerns that I've had with one small aspect of the general Catholic church is the belief or doctrine that a baby sprinkled (or immersed, or whatever) from birth is saved. This is simply not biblical. Biblically, being saved only comes from the acceptance of Jesus Christ...not baptism, not works...just acceptance and God's subsequent grace. Not being raised Catholic, however, it is possible that my interpretation of what I have heard from Catholic friends is incorrect

Very good thread, and I'm glad to see that it is being discussed with some intelligence!

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

Ok...just making sure that God will damn someone to hell who, on their deathbed, is truly repentant but was never baptized.

Gotcha.

Wow...what a benevolent God.

G-d is just. I trust His judgment before I'll trust yours. One thing you non-believers need to understand: G-d is righteous. If He were to ignore the unrighteousness of the world He would not be righteous. G-d cannot be a hypocrite, so He cannot let the sins of the wicked go unpunished. At the same time, He offers every man, woman, and child who has ever lived on this earth a chance for salvation. It is my contention that if someone is truly repentant of their sins and accepts G-d's free gift of salvation that G-d will weigh what is in their hearts and determine if they can receive said gift. You don't get to make that choice, nor do you know the results of what happens after someone dies in your deathbed scenario - you simply assume the worst.

Ok...so baptism, then, is *not* a requirement.

Gotcha.

No.... I never said that, once again you jump to conclusions. Try reading what I said again, slowly this time. Let each sentence sink in. Oh, and stop putting words in my mouth.

 

[Tom]

To expand on my previous comments, I think the basic flaw in your reasoning comes from a misunderstanding of what baptism really is.

My reading of the Bible is that baptism is the cleansing of sin, which in Christianity flows from belief in Jesus Christ, it's the belief itself that is the baptism, the accepting of Jesus Christ that causes the cleansing, not a ritual performed with water.

And the Bible is full of stuff that a believer would want to do, like the ritual baptisms, and other stuff, but they are not the cause of the salvation.


edit- mostly directed to GtPrOjEcTX, but not exclusivley

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Stojakapimp

Originally posted by: conjur

Ok...so baptism, then, is *not* a requirement.

Gotcha.

maybe we should just make a checklist for you that you can go down and mark off anytime something like that happens.

That's how Western philosophy is nowadays. Everything is so laid out and explained...so logical

The fact is, you can't know until the final judgement. You can say this or that, but you just can't know. I'm not gonna go around spouting off judgement that other people or even myself will recieve, but you can prepare yourself the best way you know how. And if you truly have faith in Christianity, and you know that Jesus commanded to get baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, then why wouldn't you do that?

Well, which is it? One passage says baptism is a requirment, now you're saying it's up to what happens at the final judgment.

See...too many people take the Bible literally. Therein lies their faults.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

Ok...just making sure that God will damn someone to hell who, on their deathbed, is truly repentant but was never baptized.

Gotcha.

Wow...what a benevolent God.

G-d is just. I trust His judgment before I'll trust yours. One thing you non-believers need to understand: G-d is righteous. If He were to ignore the unrighteousness of the world He would not be righteous. G-d cannot be a hypocrite, so He cannot let the sins of the wicked go unpunished. At the same time, He offers every man, woman, and child who has ever lived on this earth a chance for salvation. It is my contention that if someone is truly repentant of their sins and accepts G-d's free gift of salvation that G-d will weigh what is in their hearts and determine if they can receive said gift. You don't get to make that choice, nor do you know the results of what happens after someone dies in your deathbed scenario - you simply assume the worst.

Ok...so baptism, then, is *not* a requirement.

Gotcha.

No.... I never said that, once again you jump to conclusions. Try reading what I said again, slowly this time. Let each sentence sink in. Oh, and stop putting words in my mouth.

Ok...so, which is it?

Is it a requirement or is it solely up to God? If the latter, then you don't know if baptism is a requirement.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: DougK62

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So right there he says it. "


No it doesn't. There are two things there, it says if you don't do one you'll be damned, but the one it says isn't baptism. So that statement alone does not say baptism is required.

It also doesn't define either term.

It also doesn't say that there is a cause and effect relationship, that salvation comes because a person does those things.

Bolded for emphasis. That's an important part that a lot of people can't grasp. Of course, since they can't understand it they'll just ignore it.

This goes along with my other post. Everything we need to know can't be in every spot of the Bible, that is why the whole Bible exists and builds off of itself. The two terms are defined in other places.

response to bolded part.. my point is that the sentence you gave me as an answer does not sufficiently answer my question. You are the one who presented it as the answer, not me. If there are other parts of the Bbile you want to use, go ahead.

 

[Stojakapimp]

Originally posted by: Nelmster

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
are you catholic then? i'm catholic and that's the whole point of confession. just as Jesus forgave sins, so he endowed that ability unto the first apostles. the priests are the successors to the apostles and still forgive sins just as the apostles did. otherwise, what's the point of going to confession? you could just tell whoever you offended that you were sorry and it'd all be over and done with.

I assure you I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, but I would be very interested in seeing verses from the Bible to back this up. It is heavily my understanding that forgiveness of sins comes only from acceptance of Jesus Christ - not from anyone or anything else.

One of the concerns that I've had with one small aspect of the general Catholic church is the belief or doctrine that a baby sprinkled (or immersed, or whatever) from birth is saved. This is simply not biblical. Biblically, being saved only comes from the acceptance of Jesus Christ...not baptism, not works...just acceptance and God's subsequent grace. Not being raised Catholic, however, it is possible that my interpretation of what I have heard from Catholic friends is incorrect

Very good thread, and I'm glad to see that it is being discussed with some intelligence!

Coming from an Orthodox background, my understanding is that priests do not forgive sins. Christ commanded that we confess to one another, therefore we do it in front of a priest. Way back when, people actually gave confessions in front of the whole congregation, not just the priest.

And when you are giving confession, you are not asking the priest for forgiveness. You are asking God for forgiveness, but the priest is there as sort of an intermediary. He's also there to keep you accountable, because otherwise we would try to downplay our sins and create excuses for ourselves

 

[OffTopic1]

Roman Catholic believe that the Princely Pope is like an Emperor therefore his Godly words & power rules over all others, and the rest of the Christian don?t believe in his absolute power.

A Short History of Old Catholic Orthodox Heritage and Unity Originating in Europe and Migrating to America

 

[Stojakapimp]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Stojakapimp

Originally posted by: conjur

Ok...so baptism, then, is *not* a requirement.

Gotcha.

maybe we should just make a checklist for you that you can go down and mark off anytime something like that happens.

That's how Western philosophy is nowadays. Everything is so laid out and explained...so logical

The fact is, you can't know until the final judgement. You can say this or that, but you just can't know. I'm not gonna go around spouting off judgement that other people or even myself will recieve, but you can prepare yourself the best way you know how. And if you truly have faith in Christianity, and you know that Jesus commanded to get baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, then why wouldn't you do that?

Well, which is it? One passage says baptism is a requirment, now you're saying it's up to what happens at the final judgment.

See...too many people take the Bible literally. Therein lies their faults.

And I agree, that can be a great fault. I don't believe the Bible should be taken literally. I mean, if it is, just look at creation. There are two different accounts of creation. And then look at the first 6 books of the Bible. They are attributed to Moses, yet Moses dies before the 6th book.

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

Ok...just making sure that God will damn someone to hell who, on their deathbed, is truly repentant but was never baptized.

Gotcha.

Wow...what a benevolent God.

G-d is just. I trust His judgment before I'll trust yours. One thing you non-believers need to understand: G-d is righteous. If He were to ignore the unrighteousness of the world He would not be righteous. G-d cannot be a hypocrite, so He cannot let the sins of the wicked go unpunished. At the same time, He offers every man, woman, and child who has ever lived on this earth a chance for salvation. It is my contention that if someone is truly repentant of their sins and accepts G-d's free gift of salvation that G-d will weigh what is in their hearts and determine if they can receive said gift. You don't get to make that choice, nor do you know the results of what happens after someone dies in your deathbed scenario - you simply assume the worst.

Ok...so baptism, then, is *not* a requirement.

Gotcha.

note that Flyermax said it was his contention and his belief. This is us showing our humanity as we would love to believe that our loved ones will also be saved b/c we believe they are good ppl and they believe what they are doing is right. End story? If we do what he says we can have confidence in our salvation. If we don't we can only hope for the best.

Well, in one statement Flyer says it's obvious that baptism is a requirement, hence the quote from the Bible. Next he says it's up to God on judgment day or somesuch.

Can't have it both ways.

I love the wishy-washy, fallacious logic of the religious fundamentals.

LOL, call it wishy-washy or whatever else you like, you're simply demonstrating how little you truly understand about the nature of G-d and His free gift of salvation. Ignorance is not a good foundation upon which to base one's arguments
The reason I said what I said is because I am not G-d so I can't know anything with 100% certainty because I am a doubtful, fallible man. All I can do is place my trust in Him and hope for the best!
Let me try this again, so perhaps you may understand:
G-d has laid out the path to salvation for all mankind. If you follow that path, you will be saved. In said path, it is stated that one must be baptized to receive salvation. I do not contradict this, nor do I doubt it. At the same time, you have to understand that G-d offers everyone a chance to be saved, even those who weren't baptized. I can see why this part would be confusing to you, because that would seem to imply that one does not need to be baptized to be saved, but you have to understand what baptism is before this conversation proceeds. Baptism is the washing away of sins *in the Holy Spirit*. Water is just a symbolic medium for the washing away of sins. If one is truly baptized, they are baptized *in the Holy Spirit*. If one accepts G-d's free gift of salvation, they can be baptized in the Holy Spirit regardless of whether or not they have been baptized in water.
It's quite simple, actually

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Stojakapimp

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Stojakapimp

Originally posted by: conjur

Ok...so baptism, then, is *not* a requirement.

Gotcha.

maybe we should just make a checklist for you that you can go down and mark off anytime something like that happens.

That's how Western philosophy is nowadays. Everything is so laid out and explained...so logical

The fact is, you can't know until the final judgement. You can say this or that, but you just can't know. I'm not gonna go around spouting off judgement that other people or even myself will recieve, but you can prepare yourself the best way you know how. And if you truly have faith in Christianity, and you know that Jesus commanded to get baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, then why wouldn't you do that?

Well, which is it? One passage says baptism is a requirment, now you're saying it's up to what happens at the final judgment.

See...too many people take the Bible literally. Therein lies their faults.

And I agree, that can be a great fault. I don't believe the Bible should be taken literally. I mean, if it is, just look at creation. There are two different accounts of creation. And then look at the first 6 books of the Bible. They are attributed to Moses, yet Moses dies before the 6th book.

Exactly.

The Bible, esp. the Old Testament, just cannot be taken literally. It was NEVER meant to be taken literally.

NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER


(I think I left out a few NEVERs)

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

Ok...just making sure that God will damn someone to hell who, on their deathbed, is truly repentant but was never baptized.

Gotcha.

Wow...what a benevolent God.

G-d is just. I trust His judgment before I'll trust yours. One thing you non-believers need to understand: G-d is righteous. If He were to ignore the unrighteousness of the world He would not be righteous. G-d cannot be a hypocrite, so He cannot let the sins of the wicked go unpunished. At the same time, He offers every man, woman, and child who has ever lived on this earth a chance for salvation. It is my contention that if someone is truly repentant of their sins and accepts G-d's free gift of salvation that G-d will weigh what is in their hearts and determine if they can receive said gift. You don't get to make that choice, nor do you know the results of what happens after someone dies in your deathbed scenario - you simply assume the worst.

Ok...so baptism, then, is *not* a requirement.

Gotcha.

note that Flyermax said it was his contention and his belief. This is us showing our humanity as we would love to believe that our loved ones will also be saved b/c we believe they are good ppl and they believe what they are doing is right. End story? If we do what he says we can have confidence in our salvation. If we don't we can only hope for the best.

Well, in one statement Flyer says it's obvious that baptism is a requirement, hence the quote from the Bible. Next he says it's up to God on judgment day or somesuch.

Can't have it both ways.

I love the wishy-washy, fallacious logic of the religious fundamentals.

LOL, call it wishy-washy or whatever else you like, you're simply demonstrating how little you truly understand about the nature of G-d and His free gift of salvation. Ignorance is not a good foundation upon which to base one's arguments
The reason I said what I said is because I am not G-d so I can't know anything with 100% certainty because I am a doubtful, fallible man. All I can do is place my trust in Him and hope for the best!
Let me try this again, so perhaps you may understand:
G-d has laid out the path to salvation for all mankind. If you follow that path, you will be saved. In said path, it is stated that one must be baptized to receive salvation. I do not contradict this, nor do I doubt it. At the same time, you have to understand that G-d offers everyone a chance to be saved, even those who weren't baptized. I can see why this part would be confusing to you, because that would seem to imply that one does not need to be baptized to be saved, but you have to understand what baptism is before this conversation proceeds. Baptism is the washing away of sins *in the Holy Spirit*. Water is just a symbolic medium for the washing away of sins. If one is truly baptized, they are baptized *in the Holy Spirit*. If one accepts G-d's free gift of salvation, they can be baptized in the Holy Spirit regardless of whether or not they have been baptized in water.
It's quite simple, actually

Ok...so, in your opinion, baptism is symbolic and does not imply being dipped or immersed in some tributary.

Gotcha.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"You're confusing the word "and" with the word "or". And means both, or means either. Since "and" was used in this case, that means one is required to believe AND be baptized to receive salvation. Since this has already been established, it would be redundant to reiterate this in the very next sentence."



That makes no sense. The first sentence does not exclude other ways of being saved, and the second only lists one reason for being damned.

I thought the words "and" and "or" were quite elementary... There's nothing contradictory or confusing about the statement I made above. I fail to see where the confusion comes into play. Let's not get all anal here "the first sentence doesn't exclude...". The manner in which one can be saved is clearly laid out. There is only one path to salvation and that is through Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ). There is no other path. Can't get much clearer than that......

I can make a cake with eggs and chocolate. I cannot make a cake without eggs.

Your interpretation is that therefore I cannot make a cake without chocolate, is drawing a wrong conclusion based on faulty reasoning.

 

[Stojakapimp]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Stojakapimp

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Stojakapimp

Originally posted by: conjur

Ok...so baptism, then, is *not* a requirement.

Gotcha.

maybe we should just make a checklist for you that you can go down and mark off anytime something like that happens.

That's how Western philosophy is nowadays. Everything is so laid out and explained...so logical

The fact is, you can't know until the final judgement. You can say this or that, but you just can't know. I'm not gonna go around spouting off judgement that other people or even myself will recieve, but you can prepare yourself the best way you know how. And if you truly have faith in Christianity, and you know that Jesus commanded to get baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, then why wouldn't you do that?

Well, which is it? One passage says baptism is a requirment, now you're saying it's up to what happens at the final judgment.

See...too many people take the Bible literally. Therein lies their faults.

And I agree, that can be a great fault. I don't believe the Bible should be taken literally. I mean, if it is, just look at creation. There are two different accounts of creation. And then look at the first 6 books of the Bible. They are attributed to Moses, yet Moses dies before the 6th book.

Exactly.

The Bible, esp. the Old Testament, just cannot be taken literally. It was NEVER meant to be taken literally.

NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
NEVER


(I think I left out a few NEVERs)

wow...I can't believe we actually agreed on something. This is big day for Christians and athiests everywhere

 

[conjur]

:beer:

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

Ok...just making sure that God will damn someone to hell who, on their deathbed, is truly repentant but was never baptized.

Gotcha.

Wow...what a benevolent God.

G-d is just. I trust His judgment before I'll trust yours. One thing you non-believers need to understand: G-d is righteous. If He were to ignore the unrighteousness of the world He would not be righteous. G-d cannot be a hypocrite, so He cannot let the sins of the wicked go unpunished. At the same time, He offers every man, woman, and child who has ever lived on this earth a chance for salvation. It is my contention that if someone is truly repentant of their sins and accepts G-d's free gift of salvation that G-d will weigh what is in their hearts and determine if they can receive said gift. You don't get to make that choice, nor do you know the results of what happens after someone dies in your deathbed scenario - you simply assume the worst.

Ok...so baptism, then, is *not* a requirement.

Gotcha.

note that Flyermax said it was his contention and his belief. This is us showing our humanity as we would love to believe that our loved ones will also be saved b/c we believe they are good ppl and they believe what they are doing is right. End story? If we do what he says we can have confidence in our salvation. If we don't we can only hope for the best.

Well, in one statement Flyer says it's obvious that baptism is a requirement, hence the quote from the Bible. Next he says it's up to God on judgment day or somesuch.

Can't have it both ways.

I love the wishy-washy, fallacious logic of the religious fundamentals.

LOL, call it wishy-washy or whatever else you like, you're simply demonstrating how little you truly understand about the nature of G-d and His free gift of salvation. Ignorance is not a good foundation upon which to base one's arguments
The reason I said what I said is because I am not G-d so I can't know anything with 100% certainty because I am a doubtful, fallible man. All I can do is place my trust in Him and hope for the best!
Let me try this again, so perhaps you may understand:
G-d has laid out the path to salvation for all mankind. If you follow that path, you will be saved. In said path, it is stated that one must be baptized to receive salvation. I do not contradict this, nor do I doubt it. At the same time, you have to understand that G-d offers everyone a chance to be saved, even those who weren't baptized. I can see why this part would be confusing to you, because that would seem to imply that one does not need to be baptized to be saved, but you have to understand what baptism is before this conversation proceeds. Baptism is the washing away of sins *in the Holy Spirit*. Water is just a symbolic medium for the washing away of sins. If one is truly baptized, they are baptized *in the Holy Spirit*. If one accepts G-d's free gift of salvation, they can be baptized in the Holy Spirit regardless of whether or not they have been baptized in water.
It's quite simple, actually

Ok...so, in your opinion, baptism is symbolic and does not imply being dipped or immersed in some tributary.

Gotcha.

It has become quite obvious at this point that one cannot have a logical conversation with you regarding religion. You take single phrases out of context and turn them into the whole of an argument. This is not logical, nor is it fair to the person you are having a "discussion" with. I suggest you take some reading comprehension courses before continuing to post in this thread. Perhaps then you will be able to comprehend that which has been stated here, and perhaps even be enlightened by it! I wish you the best of luck, Conjur, and G-d bless you!

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: conjur

Well, in one statement Flyer says it's obvious that baptism is a requirement, hence the quote from the Bible. Next he says it's up to God on judgment day or somesuch.

Can't have it both ways.

I love the wishy-washy, fallacious logic of the religious fundamentals.

LOL, call it wishy-washy or whatever else you like, you're simply demonstrating how little you truly understand about the nature of G-d and His free gift of salvation. Ignorance is not a good foundation upon which to base one's arguments
The reason I said what I said is because I am not G-d so I can't know anything with 100% certainty because I am a doubtful, fallible man. All I can do is place my trust in Him and hope for the best!
Let me try this again, so perhaps you may understand:
G-d has laid out the path to salvation for all mankind. If you follow that path, you will be saved. In said path, it is stated that one must be baptized to receive salvation. I do not contradict this, nor do I doubt it. At the same time, you have to understand that G-d offers everyone a chance to be saved, even those who weren't baptized. I can see why this part would be confusing to you, because that would seem to imply that one does not need to be baptized to be saved, but you have to understand what baptism is before this conversation proceeds. Baptism is the washing away of sins *in the Holy Spirit*. Water is just a symbolic medium for the washing away of sins. If one is truly baptized, they are baptized *in the Holy Spirit*. If one accepts G-d's free gift of salvation, they can be baptized in the Holy Spirit regardless of whether or not they have been baptized in water.
It's quite simple, actually

Ok...so, in your opinion, baptism is symbolic and does not imply being dipped or immersed in some tributary.

Gotcha.

It has become quite obvious at this point that one cannot have a logical conversation with you regarding religion. You take single phrases out of context and turn them into the whole of an argument. This is not logical, nor is it fair to the person you are having a "discussion" with. I suggest you take some reading comprehension courses before continuing to post in this thread. Perhaps then you will be able to comprehend that which has been stated here, and perhaps even be enlightened by it! I wish you the best of luck, Conjur, and G-d bless you!

I'm just trying to pin down an answer to a simple question but you cannot do that.

Everything becomes a big grey area when you are at a loss.

 

[Jzero]

It has become quite obvious at this point that one cannot have a logical conversation with you regarding religion.

Quit stonewalling. He is asking a simple question, and I have the same question. As someone who was just 'sprinkled' I am intrigued to think that God's Little Helpers here would dare to claim that an insufficient volume of water was used in order to allow me to achieve salvation.

The questions is quite simply this:
In your opinion, is IMMERSION IN WATER a prerequisite to salvation?

Yes or no? Conjur's not being a jerk, he's just asking for a straight answer.