Catholocism = Christianity?

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: KruptosAngelos

Originally posted by: sandorski
Your opinion, not Fact. All Christian sects deviate from scripture, it is inevitable.

If they are a cult, sure. We don't have sects. That's the big picture here. Christianity is Christianity, there are no sects, only cults. Deviations are not permissible.

Baptists, Pentecostals, Lutherans, Roman Catholics, etc


=============================
sect Audio pronunciation of "sect" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (skt)
n.

1. A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
2. A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.
3. A faction united by common interests or beliefs.
===========================

all sects.

 

[IAteYourMother]

 

[Yaotl]

I will now point to this thread whenever I hear people complain that I'm too harsh on Christians. They're harder on themselves than I ever could be.

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: KruptosAngelos

Originally posted by: chrisms
And KruptosAngelos, you may have studied it for 5 years, but you are still another person with an opinion. I've been reading and learning about Biblical interpretations all my life, but I can still understand that others will interperet the Bible in extremely different ways than I would.

But it's not opinion

It may be ok for you for your beliefs to be just tossed around, but I think they are far too important. We are talking heaven and hell here, get serious.

Obviously it *is* your opinion - if it were incontrovertible fact, we wouldn't be arguing about it here, now, would we? Do you know what the word means?

Have you spoken to God and got the definition straight from the source? No, I didn't think so.

Seems like you're bringing some personal issues with Catholocism to the table. Unfortunately, that STILL doesn't change the fundamentals.

BTW - YOU belong to a sect, even if you don't know it.

If there's one thing I've learned - anyone claiming to have all the answers never really does.

Sat nam.

 

[dornick]

Originally posted by: KruptosAngelos

Originally posted by: dornick
Okay, I think I mistated the Catholic position somewhat. Basically, as James says "faith without works is dead". In other words, faith is indeed what saves you, but it's no good if you aren't willing to act like a Christian.

That's not what James meant. It's like calling a tree an apple tree if it produces no apples. The way to know someone has faith is they produce works based on that faith. It's simply a measure of faith, a way to detect it. It's a result, not a requirement. If that makes sense. Real faith produces works.

Right. That's why a few verses later he said "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

Anyway, what authority do you have to say you know what James meant? The reason there are thousands of Protestant churches out there is because each one has a special take on Scripture. By what standard do you read and interpret the Bible?

As a side note, I'm not too interested in a lengthy debate, because neither one of us has any hope of convincing the other. However, I would be very happy if you guys would read some real Catholic literature, since it seems the anti-Catholic school has taught you well.

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: Fritzo
The Acts of the Apostles chronicled the formation of the church. It basically went over the prototype of what we call Catholicism. Also, if I'm not supposed to get information from another human (one who studied the subject so much he can be called Dr.), then who am I supposed to get information from? Would I have given more weight to my argument if I said that an elephant told me?

Get it from the closest source you can, the Bible. Read it and pray to God for guidance... that's the best recommendation I can give to anyone.

I'm not saying any Pastor would intentionally mislead a person. Most of them have good intentions, but it's still filtering the information through one more human. The Bible has been translated and altered over the years but it's still the closer to the source than listening to another person.

OK, here's a copy and past from the Vatican's website (can't link for some reason):

Brief organizational history of the Christian Church
The early Christian church came to be organized under five patriarchs, the bishops of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople and Rome. The Bishop of Rome was recognized by all the Patriarchs as "the Vicar of Christ," "the Servant of the Servants of God," and "the Head of the Church," with doctrinal or procedural disputes often referred to Rome for an opinion. When the Imperial capital moved to Constantinople, papal influence was often challenged. While Rome claimed special authority descending from St. Peter2 and St. Paul, who, all agreed, were martyred and buried in Rome, Constantinople had become the residence of the Emperor and the Senate, and the churches at Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria were all older than Rome. Antioch furthermore was considered to have been the see of St. Peter, before he went to Rome.

The first great rupture in the Church followed the Council of Ephesus (AD 431), which affirmed the status of the Virgin Mary as Theotokos. The majority of those who refused to accept this Council were Persian Christians, a Church now known as the Assyrian Church of the East. The next major break was after the Council of Chalcedon (AD 451). This Council repudiated Eutychian Monophysitism. The terms adopted by this Council were unacceptable to many Christians who preferred to use a Christology formulated primarily in Alexandria. These Christians are now often referred to in English as the Oriental Orthodox Communion ("Eastern" and "Oriental" are not necessarily synonymous in English). The next major rift within Catholicism was in the 11th century. Doctrinal disputes, including those represented in the filioque clause, conflicts between methods of Church government, and perhaps the evolution of separate rites and practices, precipitated a split in AD 1054 that divided the Catholic Church once again, this time between a "West" and an "East". England, France, the Holy Roman Empire, Scandinavia, and much of the rest of Western Europe were in the Western camp, and Greece, Russia and many of other Slavic lands, Anatolia, and the Christians in Syria and Egypt who accepted the Council of Chalcedon made up the eastern camp. This division is called the East-West Schism. The most recent major split within the Catholic Church occurred in the 16th century with the Protestant Reformation, after which many Protestant denominations emerged and the Anglican Church was established.

All of the preceding groups, excepting non-Anglican Protestants, consider themselves to be fully and completely Catholic. Each of them, excepting the Anglicans, considers itself not only to be completely Catholic but to be exclusively Catholic, even if a different group happens to use the term "Catholic" in its name. In short, no less than five major Christian traditions currently have a claim to being "the Catholic Church", and each defends the validity of the claim on the basis of uniquely-held doctrines that do not completely agree with the doctrines of the other four. An exception is the Roman Catholic Church?s view of the Churches estranged in the East-West Schism, a rupture it sees as involving only a break of ecclesiastical communion (schism in the strict sense), while in the others heretical doctrines played a part.

 

[Calin]

Originally posted by: Gurck
This came up the other day, I mentioined Islam being the world's most popular religion and someone disagreed, saying that because Catholocism is a facet of Christianity, much like Protestants, Methodists, etc., Christianity enjoys far greater numbers. I didn't think this was right, but since I'm not religious nor do I know much about religion, I figure I'll ask ATOT.

A facet of Christianity
However, Catholicism < Christianity.

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: KruptosAngelos

Originally posted by: chrisms
I don't think it is obvious to anyone who has studied religion. If it was, would you assume the thousands of Catholic theologans around the world, who have dedicated their lives to studying the teaching of Jesus, and who write deep interpretations of the Bible, are deliberately going against the New Testement?

You don't have to study much to see the differences between Christianity and Catholicism.

You keep saying this, but you're never specific. Give some examples please.

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: SportSC4

Originally posted by: Fritzo
Uhh, Catholics are the ORIGINAL form of Christiananity. They started the whole thing with the church headed by St. Peter. All other forms of Christianity are offshoots of Catholicism.

Am I wrong but didn't Catholicism break off of Eastern Orthodox?

Other way around. The two religions are extremely similar though. Pope John Paul II spent a great deal of his life trying to reunite the two churches.

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: glen
Matt. 23:9 - Jesus says, "call no man father." But Protestants use this verse in an attempt to prove that it is wrong for Catholics to call priests "father." This is an example of "eisegesis" (imposing one's views upon a passage) as opposed to "exegesis" (drawing out the meaning of the passage from its context). In this verse, Jesus was discouraging His followers from elevating the scribes and Pharisees to the titles of ?fathers? and ?rabbis? because they were hypocrites. Jesus warns us not to elevate anyone to the level of our heavenly Father.

Matt. 23:8 ? in this teaching, Jesus also says not to call anyone teacher or rabbi as well. But don?t Protestants call their teachers ?teacher?? What about this commandment of Jesus? When Protestants say ?call no man father,? they must also argue that we cannot call any man teacher either.

Judges 17:10; 18:19 - priesthood and fatherhood have always been identified together. Fatherhood literally means "communicating one's nature," and just as biological fathers communicate their nature to their children, so do spiritual fathers communicate the nature of God to us, their children, through (hopefully) teaching and example.

Eph. 3:14-15 - every family in heaven and on earth is named from the "Father." We are fathers in the Father.

Acts 7:2; 22:1,1 John 2:13 - elders of the Church are called "fathers." Therefore, we should ask the question, "Why don't Protestants call their pastors "father?"

1 Cor. 4:15 - Paul writes, "I became your father in Christ Jesus."

1 Cor. 4:17 - Paul calls Bishop Timothy a beloved and faithful "child" in the Lord.

2 Cor. 12:14 - Paul describes his role as parent over his "children" the Corinthians.

Phil. 2:22 - Paul calls Timothy's service to him as a son serves a "father."

1 Thess. 2:11- Paul compares the Church elders' ministry to the people like a father with his children.

1 Tim. 1:2,18; 2 Tim. 1:2-3 - Paul calls Timothy his true "child" in the faith and his son.

Titus 1:4 - Paul calls Titus his true "child" in a common faith. Priests are our spiritual fathers in the family of God.

Philemon 10 - Paul says he has become the "father" of Onesimus.

Heb. 12:7,9 - emphasizes our earthly "fathers." But these are not just biological but also spiritual (the priests of the Church).

1 Peter 5:13 - Peter refers to himself as father by calling Mark his "son."

1 John 2:1,13,14 - John calls the elders of the Church "fathers."

1 John 2:1,18,28; 3:18; 5:21; 3 John 4 - John calls members of the Church "children."

1 Macc. 2:65 - Mattathias the priest tells his sons that Simeon will be their "father."

The whole point of Jesus' initial statement was to say "Do not put any person on the same level as God." People are taking these verses WAY too literally. Father is a title meaning "Leader of the Faith." A father is someone that is supposed to nurture you, teach you, and guide you. We worship God, and the priest's role is to uphold the traditions to do that. A father is looked at as the head of the household, so in much the same way the head of a church is called a father as he makes sure the rules are being followed and that his "children" (parishioners) are being tended to.

 

[kinev]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: kinev

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: kinev
No offense Glen, but we can both google cut and paste until the cows come home.

Apparently, some people are saying that my interpretation of Catholic doctrine is wrong. I disagree. The Catholic church teaches that the sacraments are integral to a person's salvation. [Reading Rainbow] But you don't have to take my word for it [/Reading Rainbow].

Catholic.org states:

"The doctrine of the sacraments is the doctrine of the second part of God's way of salvation to us."

"A sacrament, administered properly in the way established by Christ and with the proper intention, gives the grace it signifies."

"The Church Thus Teaches: There are seven sacraments. They were instituted by Christ and given to the Church to administer. They are necessary for salvation."

Yeah, yeah, I cut and pasted, but that is the official position of the Catholic church. Yes, the Catholic church believes in Jesus, but it's Jesus + sacraments for salvation. You can't really disagree with the fact that the Catholic church teaches this.

Contrast that to Christianity which teaches that faith in Jesus alone is the way to salvation. No sacraments, no works, just Grace through faith.

This might be a small distinction to atheists, but it is really the core of religion. If Christianity and Catholicism disagree about salvation, how can they be the same? They can't and they aren't.

Like I originally said, the question is dependent on the definition of Christian. If you define Christianity as following the teachings of Jesus and the Bible, then no, people who follow the teachings of the Catholic church are not Christians.

I tried to make a distinction between Catholic and the Catholic church because someone who calls them self a Catholic may not follow the teachings of the Catholic church.

Your opinion, not Fact. All Christian sects deviate from scripture, it is inevitable.

Which part is my opinion? I suppose my definition of Christianity is opinion, but what else?

It's all opinion.

Okay. Let me spell it out. EXACTLY what are you calling my opinion? Am I making up the official stance of the Catholic church? Nope. Follow the link. That is what the Catholic church teaches; that the sacraments are necessary for salvation. It's quoted from Catholic.org and from the Catholic Catechism.

Is what Christianity teaches my opinion? Again, no. Most Protestant churches teach that salvation is through faith in Jesus alone.

Of course there are individuals within both organizations that are exceptions. The question was Catholicism and Protestantism as a whole not on a individual basis.

Again, my definition of a Christian (following the teachings of Jesus and the Bible) may be opinion, but you keep saying it all is. Please enlighten me as to what EXACTLY you think is just my opinion. Just saying it all is my opinion and dismissing it aint gonna cut it.

 

[DAGTA]

Originally posted by: Fritzo
OK, here's a copy and past from the Vatican's website (can't link for some reason):

You're still not 'getting' what I'm saying. Going to a website is still going to a human for answers. If you want the source, go to the source, the Bible.

I can make a website that says anything I want it to say. That doesn't mean it's correct, especially if I make a site that supports my own views. Quite the bias, no?

 

[kinev]

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: KruptosAngelos

Originally posted by: chrisms
I don't think it is obvious to anyone who has studied religion. If it was, would you assume the thousands of Catholic theologans around the world, who have dedicated their lives to studying the teaching of Jesus, and who write deep interpretations of the Bible, are deliberately going against the New Testement?

You don't have to study much to see the differences between Christianity and Catholicism.

You keep saying this, but you're never specific. Give some examples please.

Have you read the thread? If not, here it is:
Catholicism=salvation through faith and works
Christianity=salvation through faith alone

This is the central question of religion; how do I get into Heaven? Or, in a more broad sense, what happens to me when I die? Catholicism and Christianity differ on how you receive salvation. Even without making a judgment call on which one is correct, it is simple to see that Catholics/=Christians.

Are there numerous Christian, Protestant denominations? Of course! They all have one thing in common, though, and that is salvation through Jesus alone. Some denominations want different music, some want different teachers, and some want different rituals. Are these items germane to salvation? No! The key concept of Christianity is Jesus being the way, the truth, and the life. Some churches have split for asinine reasons, but if they keep their focus on Jesus as savior, they are still Christians.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: kinev

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: KruptosAngelos

Originally posted by: chrisms
I don't think it is obvious to anyone who has studied religion. If it was, would you assume the thousands of Catholic theologans around the world, who have dedicated their lives to studying the teaching of Jesus, and who write deep interpretations of the Bible, are deliberately going against the New Testement?

You don't have to study much to see the differences between Christianity and Catholicism.

You keep saying this, but you're never specific. Give some examples please.

Have you read the thread? If not, here it is:
Catholicism=salvation through faith and works
Christianity=salvation through faith alone

This is the central question of religion; how do I get into Heaven? Or, in a more broad sense, what happens to me when I die? Catholicism and Christianity differ on how you receive salvation. Even without making a judgment call on which one is correct, it is simple to see that Catholics/=Christians.

Are there numerous Christian, Protestant denominations? Of course! They all have one thing in common, though, and that is salvation through Jesus alone. Some denominations want different music, some want different teachers, and some want different rituals. Are these items germane to salvation? No! The key concept of Christianity is Jesus being the way, the truth, and the life. Some churches have split for asinine reasons, but if they keep their focus on Jesus as savior, they are still Christians.

actually, catholics don't believe in salvation by works, it's salvation by ritual. not the same thing. there are branches of protestants that believe in salvation by works.

the difference is this.

salvation by works attempts to make themselves worthy, purified and holy

salvation by ritual really isn't concerned with the value of the individual, but with whethor or not the individual followed the ritual.

catholics are not really christians because the bible teaches that there is only ONE Intercessor between man and God and that is Jesus Christ.

the catholic church preaches that the church and more specifically the priest intercede on our behalf which is just simply not biblical.

Paul specifically spoke of "the priesthood of ALL believers".

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: kinev

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: KruptosAngelos

Originally posted by: chrisms
I don't think it is obvious to anyone who has studied religion. If it was, would you assume the thousands of Catholic theologans around the world, who have dedicated their lives to studying the teaching of Jesus, and who write deep interpretations of the Bible, are deliberately going against the New Testement?

You don't have to study much to see the differences between Christianity and Catholicism.

You keep saying this, but you're never specific. Give some examples please.

Have you read the thread? If not, here it is:
Catholicism=salvation through faith and works
Christianity=salvation through faith alone

This is the central question of religion; how do I get into Heaven? Or, in a more broad sense, what happens to me when I die? Catholicism and Christianity differ on how you receive salvation. Even without making a judgment call on which one is correct, it is simple to see that Catholics/=Christians.

Are there numerous Christian, Protestant denominations? Of course! They all have one thing in common, though, and that is salvation through Jesus alone. Some denominations want different music, some want different teachers, and some want different rituals. Are these items germane to salvation? No! The key concept of Christianity is Jesus being the way, the truth, and the life. Some churches have split for asinine reasons, but if they keep their focus on Jesus as savior, they are still Christians.

actually, catholics don't believe in salvation by works, it's salvation by ritual. not the same thing. there are branches of protestants that believe in salvation by works.

the difference is this.

salvation by works attempts to make themselves worthy, purified and holy

salvation by ritual really isn't concerned with the value of the individual, but with whethor or not the individual followed the ritual.

catholics are not really christians because the bible teaches that there is only ONE Intercessor between man and God and that is Jesus Christ.

the catholic church preaches that the church and more specifically the priest intercede on our behalf which is just simply not biblical.

Paul specifically spoke of "the priesthood of ALL believers".

Are you going to touch on things like prayer beads/rosery, priests forgiving sins, and paying money to get sins forgiven?

 

[Platinum321]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: kinev

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: KruptosAngelos

Originally posted by: chrisms
I don't think it is obvious to anyone who has studied religion. If it was, would you assume the thousands of Catholic theologans around the world, who have dedicated their lives to studying the teaching of Jesus, and who write deep interpretations of the Bible, are deliberately going against the New Testement?

You don't have to study much to see the differences between Christianity and Catholicism.

You keep saying this, but you're never specific. Give some examples please.

Have you read the thread? If not, here it is:
Catholicism=salvation through faith and works
Christianity=salvation through faith alone

This is the central question of religion; how do I get into Heaven? Or, in a more broad sense, what happens to me when I die? Catholicism and Christianity differ on how you receive salvation. Even without making a judgment call on which one is correct, it is simple to see that Catholics/=Christians.

Are there numerous Christian, Protestant denominations? Of course! They all have one thing in common, though, and that is salvation through Jesus alone. Some denominations want different music, some want different teachers, and some want different rituals. Are these items germane to salvation? No! The key concept of Christianity is Jesus being the way, the truth, and the life. Some churches have split for asinine reasons, but if they keep their focus on Jesus as savior, they are still Christians.

actually, catholics don't believe in salvation by works, it's salvation by ritual. not the same thing. there are branches of protestants that believe in salvation by works.

the difference is this.

salvation by works attempts to make themselves worthy, purified and holy

salvation by ritual really isn't concerned with the value of the individual, but with whethor or not the individual followed the ritual.

catholics are not really christians because the bible teaches that there is only ONE Intercessor between man and God and that is Jesus Christ.

the catholic church preaches that the church and more specifically the priest intercede on our behalf which is just simply not biblical.

Paul specifically spoke of "the priesthood of ALL believers".

glad to see more insightful distinctions.

 

[kinev]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
actually, catholics don't believe in salvation by works, it's salvation by ritual. not the same thing. there are branches of protestants that believe in salvation by works.

the difference is this.

salvation by works attempts to make themselves worthy, purified and holy

salvation by ritual really isn't concerned with the value of the individual, but with whethor or not the individual followed the ritual.

catholics are not really christians because the bible teaches that there is only ONE Intercessor between man and God and that is Jesus Christ.

the catholic church preaches that the church and more specifically the priest intercede on our behalf which is just simply not biblical.

Paul specifically spoke of "the priesthood of ALL believers".

Well, I suppose it may be semantics, but I have to disagree. "salvation by works attempts to make themselves worthy, purified and holy" Isn't that exactly what the Catholic church teaches about the sacraments? From my previous post:

"A sacrament, administered properly in the way established by Christ and with the proper intention, gives the grace it signifies...The Church Thus Teaches: There are seven sacraments. They were instituted by Christ and given to the Church to administer. They are necessary for salvation."

I view rituals as works. Whether you call it a ritual or a work, the Catholic church teaches that the sacraments are required for salvation. "gives the grace it signifies" sounds to me like "attempting to make themselves worthy, purified and holy".

I agree with your conclusions, but to me, rituals are works as well. In fact, anything apart from the sanctifying blood of Christ is a work, no matter what you call it.

Sure there are other differences between Catholics and Protestants, but the most important one is the salvation issue.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: kinev

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
actually, catholics don't believe in salvation by works, it's salvation by ritual. not the same thing. there are branches of protestants that believe in salvation by works.

the difference is this.

salvation by works attempts to make themselves worthy, purified and holy

salvation by ritual really isn't concerned with the value of the individual, but with whethor or not the individual followed the ritual.

catholics are not really christians because the bible teaches that there is only ONE Intercessor between man and God and that is Jesus Christ.

the catholic church preaches that the church and more specifically the priest intercede on our behalf which is just simply not biblical.

Paul specifically spoke of "the priesthood of ALL believers".

Well, I suppose it may be semantics, but I have to disagree. "salvation by works attempts to make themselves worthy, purified and holy" Isn't that exactly what the Catholic church teaches about the sacraments? From my previous post:

"A sacrament, administered properly in the way established by Christ and with the proper intention, gives the grace it signifies...The Church Thus Teaches: There are seven sacraments. They were instituted by Christ and given to the Church to administer. They are necessary for salvation."

I view rituals as works. Whether you call it a ritual or a work, the Catholic church teaches that the sacraments are required for salvation. "gives the grace it signifies" sounds to me like "attempting to make themselves worthy, purified and holy".

I agree with your conclusions, but to me, rituals are works as well. In fact, anything apart from the sanctifying blood of Christ is a work, no matter what you call it.

Sure there are other differences between Catholics and Protestants, but the most important one is the salvation issue.

not really.

the catholic church doesn't give a flying fvck about someones purity. what they are after is social conformity and obedience to rituals. it's a power move.

salvation by works vs salvation by grace is a distinction made within the protestant denominations.

Calvinism preaches Salvation by Grace (God selects who is or is not saved and we really don't have much to say about it).

Armenianism preaches Salvation by works. Sure salvation is a gift of God but once we've received that gift we have to make ourselves holy in order to be worthy of it.

both are extremes and i personally don't agree with either.

catholicism does accept either of those premises.

with catholicism, salvation comes thru the church and it's sacraments.

 

[piasabird]

I dont see why Christians are always saying Religion X is not Christianity or Religion Y does not really beleive in Christ. Chrisians have an awful lot of hangups about their identity.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: piasabird
I dont see why Christians are always saying Religion X is not Christianity or Religion Y does not really beleive in Christ. Chrisians have an awful lot of hangups about their identity.

why not, it happens in economics. schools of thought argue with each other. there are schools withing schools. there are extremist versions of schools within schools.

classical, vs neoclassical, vs keynsian and on and on.

i'm not too familiar with physics but i'd be surprised if there weren't schools of thought in physics, or schools of thought in astronomy, or schools of thought in geology.

oh wait, yup, yup and yup, there are.

 

[kinev]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: kinev

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
actually, catholics don't believe in salvation by works, it's salvation by ritual. not the same thing. there are branches of protestants that believe in salvation by works.

the difference is this.

salvation by works attempts to make themselves worthy, purified and holy

salvation by ritual really isn't concerned with the value of the individual, but with whethor or not the individual followed the ritual.

catholics are not really christians because the bible teaches that there is only ONE Intercessor between man and God and that is Jesus Christ.

the catholic church preaches that the church and more specifically the priest intercede on our behalf which is just simply not biblical.

Paul specifically spoke of "the priesthood of ALL believers".

Well, I suppose it may be semantics, but I have to disagree. "salvation by works attempts to make themselves worthy, purified and holy" Isn't that exactly what the Catholic church teaches about the sacraments? From my previous post:

"A sacrament, administered properly in the way established by Christ and with the proper intention, gives the grace it signifies...The Church Thus Teaches: There are seven sacraments. They were instituted by Christ and given to the Church to administer. They are necessary for salvation."

I view rituals as works. Whether you call it a ritual or a work, the Catholic church teaches that the sacraments are required for salvation. "gives the grace it signifies" sounds to me like "attempting to make themselves worthy, purified and holy".

I agree with your conclusions, but to me, rituals are works as well. In fact, anything apart from the sanctifying blood of Christ is a work, no matter what you call it.

Sure there are other differences between Catholics and Protestants, but the most important one is the salvation issue.

not really.

the catholic church doesn't give a flying fvck about someones purity. what they are after is social conformity and obedience to rituals. it's a power move.

salvation by works vs salvation by grace is a distinction made within the protestant denominations.

Calvinism preaches Salvation by Grace (God selects who is or is not saved and we really don't have much to say about it).

Armenianism preaches Salvation by works. Sure salvation is a gift of God but once we've received that gift we have to make ourselves holy in order to be worthy of it.

both are extremes and i personally don't agree with either.

catholicism does accept either of those premises.

with catholicism, salvation comes thru the church and it's sacraments.

There are multiple levels in this discussion. I also beleive that the Catholic church has used the sacrements and other rituals (priest confession, pleniary(sp?) indulgences, etc) to exert control over the masses. Yes, deep down, it is a power move meant for control. That's historical. However, not every single teacher affiliated with the Catholic church is teaching for power. Some really believe, through indoctrination, that the sacraments are a means to salvation. These people aren't concerned with power, they are just following un-Biblical teachings. To them, works are a way of filling up your "heveanly scoreceard" with enough Grace to earn your way into Hevean.

Works vs. Grace is not just a Protestant issue. It is the key issue behind the difference between the Catholic and Protestant churches. Yes, some Protestant churches teach salvation through works. But, they are not Christians, either.

Armineanism vs. Calvanism is not an issue of works vs. grace. Calvin and Arminius were discussing predestination versus free will. Both agreed that salvation was a free gift from God and that no works could earn anyone a place in Hevean. Calvin asserted that God chose (predestined) those who would believe and that man was Totally depraved (the T in TULIP) and therefore incapable of even making the choice for salvation. Arminius stated that God wanted all men to be saved and those who were made the choice (Free will) to accept the gift of salvation. It is an OLD, OLD debate that goes back to Luther vs. Erasmus and Augustine vs. Pelagius. I suppose it could be seen as works with Arminius stating that a believer can lose his/her salvation, but the core of the debate was free will vs. election. But that's off topic.

I'm not a 5 pointer, either. I see scriptual backing for both free will and predestination. But that is not the core issue. I know I am saved, so whether I chose it or God forced me to is a moot point. I can't tell what other people's reasons for being saved are. But, both Calvin and Arminius agreed that it was Jesus that leads to salvation. The question was how one gets there.

 

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by: kinev
Yes, some Protestant churches teach salvation through works. But, they are not Christians, either.

how is that a basis to (re)define who is or isn't a christian?
people that believe christ is the savior/messiah are christian despite how they fall on works/grace issue

 

[chrisms]

I believe kinev and others are brining up moot points. The fact is that Catholics worship Jesus Christ as the lord and savior. Now you can get hung up on details which disagree with your own faith, such as the sacraments and the path which one must take to get to heaven, but both Protestants and Catholics believe Jesus is Christ..making them both Christian religions.

You need to take a step back from your own religious beliefs and the definition of what you think is a Christian, and see that from an objectice standpoint that Catholics are Christians.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: FoBoT

Originally posted by: kinev
Yes, some Protestant churches teach salvation through works. But, they are not Christians, either.

how is that a basis to (re)define who is or isn't a christian?
people that believe christ is the savior/messiah are christian despite how they fall on works/grace issue

I would venture to define "Christian" as someone who follows the teachings of Christ, not whether they believe He's the whole all-god/all-man son of god thing or not.

However, dictionary.com defines Christian as someone who holds "belief in Jesus as Christ" (which, without clarification, means NOTHING) or someone who follows a religion that's based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

Derived from Jesus's teachings.

Christlike.

et al

 

[BillyBatson]

i voted for the first one