Cawthorn. Lights on. Noone home.

[gothuevos]

The Democrats can't pass the build back better act or win a midterm in Virginia, barely hold on to a governorship in NJ, you think they are going to fix gerrymandering on the state and federal level, fix the under representation of blue states in the house and Senate and the stacked supreme court? Before the GQP probably takes the house in a year?

Hahahahaha. Now that's funny.

The Republicans are well on their way to winning the house in 2022 and set up a solid shot to overthrow democracy in 2024.

Splitting the nation is the best shot at letting half the country avoid living under fascism and doing it peacefully.

Naivete is holding onto a dream of America that doesn't exist anymore.

We don't share fundamental core values that it takes to run a country together with the folks that run the deep South. It's only going to get worse of you haven't noticed.

Another option would be pure, unfiltered federalism. Throw everything to the state level, find one out of the 50 that fits your needs and move there. Might be easier than negotiating a split, because we know exactly how those "talks" would go.

This also solves the problem of a common currency, free travel, commerce, etc.

 

[gothuevos]

Splitting the nation is the best shot at letting half the country avoid living under fascism and doing it peacefully.

While this approach appeals to emotion, I don't think either side will find that a split will be as "glorious" as they imagine. Here's how I see it playing out.

Blue side: One of the biggest issues for the blue side after a split will be an immense exodus of law enforcement, first responders and military. Most of these individuals will flock to the red side. Even if you could somehow negotiate a fair split of the military arsenal and nukes (what happens to the overseas bases and personnel, btw?), it doesn't matter if you have 1000 planes, but no pilots to fly them. I suppose the sheer number of nukes might serve as a decent deterrent initially, but the blue side would be vulnerable to immense crime internally as well as the usual threats from external bad actors. I will assume, for the sake of argument, that there will be some sort of "Non-Aggression Pact" with the red states. But imagine large cities with either a minimal police force or none at all. Second, while true that the blue states tend to generate most of the current GDP, they would undoubtedly need to raise taxes (already high in these areas) to try to deliver on popular liberal policies (universal healthcare, free college, etc). Now you might argue that this might be EASIER to do after a split since you'd have less states/population to try to cover, the most logical conclusion is that taxes would need to go up. This is even more likely when you consider that the blue side could also potentially, depending on the geographical split, lose most of the farmers/crops/food. While the blue side might still retain a lot of farmland, would the remaining population volunteer to harvest? Or would the blue side just increase imports of food? The latter would definitely add to increasing taxes. And if it doesn't work out, a worst case scenario would be food shortages or even famines. Now imagine that in the backdrop of many large urban centers also lacking adequate police forces. Anarchy could ensue. In short, the blue side could be looking at ending up less safe, with more crime, increased taxes/cost of living and possible food crises.

Red side: Prepare for a massive brain drain. Virtually all of healthcare, teachers, academics, etc will leave for the blue side. Now some on the red side may even celebrate this, but this will ultimately leave them a sick, sick country. Imagine no vaccinations required at all, or even banned altogether. Once eradicated diseases now totally endemic and uncontrollable. Imagine traveling hundreds of miles to see a simple primary care doc. Need a subspecialist or a surgery/complex medical procedure? Good luck. Hell, you might have to go "international" to the blue states to get that done. All this in the backdrop of zero healthcare coverage, unless you can pay for it, and it will be super pricey. Many red states already have mother-infant mortality rates that rival those of developing countries. Now that skyrockets everywhere. Without blue states subsidizing red states, they too will need to raise taxes. Think Texas and Florida will continue to have no state income tax? Think again. They will need a massive influx of money and that will have to come from taxation.

Bottom line is that a split leaves both sides more vulnerable, sicker, poorer and a with decreased quality of life (for different reasons). And I haven't even touched on a myriad of other issues related to manufacturing, borders, international relations, etc. There are probably endless layers of complexities to something like this.

 

[soundforbjt]

The Democrats can't pass the build back better act or win a midterm in Virginia, barely hold on to a governorship in NJ, you think they are going to fix gerrymandering on the state and federal level, fix the under representation of blue states in the house and Senate and the stacked supreme court? Before the GQP probably takes the house in a year?

Hahahahaha. Now that's funny.

The Republicans are well on their way to winning the house in 2022 and set up a solid shot to overthrow democracy in 2024.

Splitting the nation is the best shot at letting half the country avoid living under fascism and doing it peacefully.

Naivete is holding onto a dream of America that doesn't exist anymore.

We don't share fundamental core values that it takes to run a country together with the folks that run the deep South. It's only going to get worse of you haven't noticed.

There’s 25 dem reps not running for re-election in the midterms so far, the House is most likely falling. Dems have good intentions but crap messaging and actually believe repubs want to play by the rules.

 

[Ajay]

The Democrats can't pass the build back better act or win a midterm in Virginia, barely hold on to a governorship in NJ, you think they are going to fix gerrymandering on the state and federal level, fix the under representation of blue states in the house and Senate and the stacked supreme court? Before the GQP probably takes the house in a year?

Hahahahaha. Now that's funny.

The Republicans are well on their way to winning the house in 2022 and set up a solid shot to overthrow democracy in 2024.

Splitting the nation is the best shot at letting half the country avoid living under fascism and doing it peacefully.

Naivete is holding onto a dream of America that doesn't exist anymore.

We don't share fundamental core values that it takes to run a country together with the folks that run the deep South. It's only going to get worse of you haven't noticed.

I think giving up this way is cowardice. Not being will to fight, just as the founding fathers did to extract us from the yoke of Monarchy. We are already fighting - I don't see the point of giving up. I really just don't get it. Anyway, we disagree, sharply. I suppose that'll be that.

 

[MrSquished]

I think giving up this way is cowardice. Not being will to fight, just as the founding fathers did to extract us from the yoke of Monarchy. We are already fighting - I don't see the point of giving up. I really just don't get it. Anyway, we disagree, sharply. I suppose that'll be that.

How am I giving up?. The writing is on the wall. The Democrats have a year to fix democracy and they can't even get other things done. The odds are the GQP will have the house and they will block Biden from doing anything for the rest of his term. Besides fixing voting rights, the Dems have to pack the SC. And fix the representation in the Senate and house. You think the Democrats are going to pack the supreme court in the next 12 months?

If we had at least 4 years to get shit done with much larger majorities I'd agree, let's get to work and be hopeful and save the country.

But that isn't the case at all.

 

[Ajay]

How am I giving up?. The writing is on the wall. The Democrats have a year to fix democracy and they can't even get other things done. The odds are the GQP will have the house and they will block Biden from doing anything for the rest of his term. Besides fixing voting rights, the Dems have to pack the SC. And fix the representation in the Senate and house. You think the Democrats are going to pack the supreme court in the next 12 months?

If we had at least 4 years to get shit done with much larger majorities I'd agree, let's get to work and be hopeful and save the country.

But that isn't the case at all.

Because you keep thinking short term. In the mid 90s, the republicans started thinking long term, as I pointed out with Gingrich. That how we got here (along with a massive propaganda effort). So yeah, if democrats can't pivot and begin doing the same, then many of the policies we agree on are going to be on the back burner for a long time.

Funny bit I've noticed in the Washington Post lately, democrats running for the house are increasing moving left in an effort to distinguish themselves from the republicans and center left democrats. I don't know how that's going to work out (given numbers game being unfavorable to democrats for the next cycle). I'm pretty sure that the republicans are thrilled. They will be bashed over the head repeatedly by the GOP over being 'socialists' and 'communists'. Dumbest thing Bernie ever did was push the 'democratic socialism' tag line.

So, maybe I'm being too naïve considering the actual direction both parties are going in. I thought we needed more left-center democrats to grab votes from republicans - since we are already going in a different direction, the near term is more likely to get worse. So, I change my mind and agree on that point. Still, the long term has to be the main goal. And I believe that giving up on America is a terrible plan (secession). I'd rather we fight, we literally need to steal the R's playbook, start at the state level, and rebuild (and sell the heck out of that vision). Somehow though, democrats have to get on the same page first, as opposed to the current situations that is like herding cats.

 

[soundforbjt]

Because you keep thinking short term. In the mid 90s, the republicans started thinking long term, as I pointed out with Gingrich. That how we got here (along with a massive propaganda effort). So yeah, if democrats can't pivot and begin doing the same, then many of the policies we agree on are going to be on the back burner for a long time.

Funny bit I've noticed in the Washington Post lately, democrats running for the house are increasing moving left in an effort to distinguish themselves from the republicans and center left democrats. I don't know how that's going to work out (given numbers game being unfavorable to democrats for the next cycle). I'm pretty sure that the republicans are thrilled. They will be bashed over the head repeatedly by the GOP over being 'socialists' and 'communists'. Dumbest thing Bernie ever did was push the 'democratic socialism' tag line.

So, maybe I'm being too naïve considering the actual direction both parties are going in. I thought we needed more left-center democrats to grab votes from republicans - since we are already going in a different direction, the near term is more likely to get worse. So, I change my mind and agree on that point. Still, the long term has to be the main goal. And I believe that giving up on America is a terrible plan (secession). I'd rather we fight, we literally need to steal the R's playbook, start at the state level, and rebuild (and sell the heck out of that vision). Somehow though, democrats have to get on the same page first, as opposed to the current situations that is like herding cats.

That’d be a great idea twenty years ago, republicans are already almost there in the States that matter.

 

[Ajay]

That’d be a great idea twenty years ago, republicans are already almost there in the States that matter.

This pessimism is disappointing. There is no better time to start like the present. It will be hard. It will take a long time (just as it did for the R's). But to just give up, say we've lost and have no hope of ever changing the status quo?? What's the worst that can happen? We fail, and then have to go with option B (which is horrible). But to start with option B, dayum, that's lame.

 

[soundforbjt]

This pessimism is disappointing. There is no better time to start like the present. It will be hard. It will take a long time (just as it did for the R's). But to just give up, say we've lost and have no hope of ever changing the status quo?? What's the worst that can happen? We fail, and then have to go with option B (which is horrible). But to start with option B, dayum, that's lame.

You don’t seem to understand, if they control the votes, how do you take it back when votes no longer matter?

 

[MrSquished]

You don’t seem to understand, if they control the votes, how do you take it back when votes no longer matter?

Exactly. This is kind of the big problem. Votes won't matter in a few years, it's going to have to happen with protests and violence and bloodshed, which is why I say hedge our bets on preventing that with a negotiated divorce. I think a lot of MAGATS would actually cheer at the thought of making a red state mecca and dropping those liberal states. They can have the fucking name America too.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

that with a negotiated divorce.

You don't play an immunologist on Lit, do you?

 

[dawp]

Exactly. This is kind of the big problem. Votes won't matter in a few years, it's going to have to happen with protests and violence and bloodshed, which is why I say hedge our bets on preventing that with a negotiated divorce. I think a lot of MAGATS would actually cheer at the thought of making a red state mecca and dropping those liberal states. They can have the fucking name America too.

the problem with that is there are plenty of liberals, myself included, who live in a red state, that will not move to a blue state for whatever reason. It's just going to take time to fix this crap once the shit hits the fan.

 

[MrSquished]

the problem with that is there are plenty of liberals, myself included, who live in a red state, that will not move to a blue state for whatever reason. It's just going to take time to fix this crap once the shit hits the fan.

Unfortunately, there will be many left behind. Would you rather we all live under fascist rule, or there is at least a place where the rest of us are spared, and you at least have an option down the road.

How do you propose we 'work this out' if votes don't matter anymore?

 

[MrSquished]

As you can see from this article, reasonable Republicans who want to work within a democracy are losing. Democrats are losing. Fascist Republicans are winning - seats as election judges, etc..

This is happening all over the country. There is nobody left on the other side to work with. We need to create a country where people live with respect for the vote. That means we can't include any states that are deeply Republican in that solution.

How January 6 changed what it means to be a Republican in one Pennsylvania county

How January 6 changed what it means to be a Republican in one Pennsylvania county | CNN Politics

The day after the January 6 attack on the US Capitol, three local Republican officials in Pennsylvania's Lancaster County announced they were leaving the GOP.  Among them was Ethan Demme, a lifelong conservative who had previously served as the youngest Republican Party chairman in this deeply...

www.cnn.com

 

[soundforbjt]

As you can see from this article, reasonable Republicans who want to work within a democracy are losing. Democrats are losing. Fascist Republicans are winning - seats as election judges, etc..

This is happening all over the country. There is nobody left on the other side to work with. We need to create a country where people live with respect for the vote. That means we can't include any states that are deeply Republican in that solution.

How January 6 changed what it means to be a Republican in one Pennsylvania county

How January 6 changed what it means to be a Republican in one Pennsylvania county | CNN Politics

The day after the January 6 attack on the US Capitol, three local Republican officials in Pennsylvania's Lancaster County announced they were leaving the GOP.  Among them was Ethan Demme, a lifelong conservative who had previously served as the youngest Republican Party chairman in this deeply...

www.cnn.com

Exactly, Iirc there’s been 40+ Jan 6 attendees elected to public office.

 

[gothuevos]

As you can see from this article, reasonable Republicans who want to work within a democracy are losing. Democrats are losing. Fascist Republicans are winning - seats as election judges, etc..

This is happening all over the country. There is nobody left on the other side to work with. We need to create a country where people live with respect for the vote. That means we can't include any states that are deeply Republican in that solution.

How January 6 changed what it means to be a Republican in one Pennsylvania county

How January 6 changed what it means to be a Republican in one Pennsylvania county | CNN Politics

The day after the January 6 attack on the US Capitol, three local Republican officials in Pennsylvania's Lancaster County announced they were leaving the GOP.  Among them was Ethan Demme, a lifelong conservative who had previously served as the youngest Republican Party chairman in this deeply...

www.cnn.com

How much do you want to bet that when Trump wins or is installed in 2024, he probably gets to appoint another couple of SC justices. An 8-1 stranglehold with more than half appointed by one guy. That's precisely the kind of timeline we live in so it's going to happen LOL.

 

[gothuevos]

I think giving up this way is cowardice. Not being will to fight, just as the founding fathers did to extract us from the yoke of Monarchy. We are already fighting - I don't see the point of giving up. I really just don't get it. Anyway, we disagree, sharply. I suppose that'll be that.

You do realize that while you sit there and say this, they instead are asking, "when do we get to use the guns?" And all their prominent think tanks are waxing poetic about an "American Caesar" who will rise, take power and crush the opposition.

What you're proposing will take a generation happen, if it's even successful. We'll all be dead or imprisoned by then.

 

[MrSquished]

How much do you want to bet that when Trump wins or is installed in 2024, he probably gets to appoint another couple of SC justices. An 8-1 stranglehold with more than half appointed by one guy. That's precisely the kind of timeline we live in so it's going to happen LOL.

I'm really not sure who is going to be the Republican nominee in 2024. It's so early in politics, Front Runners come and go even through the primaries, let alone 3 years earlier. I think Trump is losing some relevancy for sure

 

[MrSquished]

There is one thing for sure about the 2024.Republican presidential nominee, is that they will not respect democracy and will be fully embracing right-wing fascism

 

[dawp]

Unfortunately, there will be many left behind. Would you rather we all live under fascist rule, or there is at least a place where the rest of us are spared, and you at least have an option down the road.

How do you propose we 'work this out' if votes don't matter anymore?

it's going to get a lots worse before it gets better and it going to take years, just hope it wont take a war to fix this. nazi germany took outside forces to beat it down and I hope it doesn't come to that.

 

[Ajay]

You don’t seem to understand, if they control the votes, how do you take it back when votes no longer matter?

SAME way as the republicans. They didn't hold a majority in the house for 40 years. They got sick of that (yes, the Dems used to use gerrymandering too, the pubs are just better at it). They went on the attack on every front. They persisted. They eventually figured out how to break through.

What you're proposing will take a generation happen, if it's even successful. We'll all be dead or imprisoned by then.

Obviously, if that starts happening, it will mean war. I doubt things will go that far. There seems to be a certain level of paranoia going on here.

 

[gothuevos]

SAME way as the republicans. They didn't hold a majority in the house for 40 years. They got sick of that (yes, the Dems used to use gerrymandering too, the pubs are just better at it). They went on the attack on every front. They persisted. They eventually figured out how to break through.




Obviously, if that starts happening, it will mean war. I doubt things will go that far. There seems to be a certain level of paranoia going on here.

Nobody is hoping it goes that far. But I'm giving you direct quotes

 

[Ajay]

Nobody is hoping it goes that far. But I'm giving you direct quotes

Sorry, which post had the direct quotes? Must have missed it.

 

[nakedfrog]

SAME way as the republicans. They didn't hold a majority in the house for 40 years. They got sick of that (yes, the Dems used to use gerrymandering too, the pubs are just better at it). They went on the attack on every front. They persisted. They eventually figured out how to break through.

You're going to ignore the impact of the revocation of the Fairness Doctrine? We can't just... "do that".

 

[MrSquished]

Obviously, if that starts happening, it will mean war. I doubt things will go that far. There seems to be a certain level of paranoia going on here.

Agreed, saying everyone will be dead or imprisoned is hysteria. But there will be no chance for the Democrats to have any real power at the federal level after 2024 if the GQP wins, either legitimately or by theft, which they are clearly setting up to do. Expect a decline on the federal level to a Putin-esque Russia style system. Freedoms of speech will be eroded, opposition to the ruling party will be eroded. The GQP will have to keep appealing to their base, so the crazy will feed the crazy. They will use the federal system to attack blue states financially and other ways - such as how Trump and Barr called NYC and Portland anarchist cities to withhold federal funding from them.

I think some of the current conservative SC justices like Brett and Amy might not go along with all these things, they will in some, but don't be surprised if the GQP then packs the SC. They will abandon states rights completely in favor of using the power of the Federal government to bring blue states in line - eliminating all their gun laws completely, eliminate all abortion rights, erode voting rights from the Federal level, and other things that go along with the far right narrative.

We won't all be dead or imprisoned, we will live our lives like tens of millions of Russians do every day, with far fewer rights and opportunities.