Cayman launches in mid-to-late November with high availability

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n0x1ous

Platinum Member
Sep 9, 2010
2,572
248
106
He's mentally unbalanced, and his site is nearly useless due to the huge pile of shit that he posts. AT and even Tom's are ten thousand times better in quality and professionalism. I choose not to give Charlie clicks. I buy ATI cards more often than not, but I don't need massive slant in my hardware news, I'd rather hear it from cool level-headed folks like Anand, Derek, etc.

Agree about the Charlie part....since you mentioned Derek (Wilson I'm assuming) Does anyone know what happened to him? After like July 2009 he disappeared from AT. Always enjoyed his GPU articles and don't get me wrong, I think Ryan is excellent as well and his GPU articles are always my first reads, but I was just curious what happened to Derek if anyone knows?
 
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bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
32
91
Iirc charlie broke nda years ago, so nv revoked any media privileges and banned him from any nv sponsored events. In turn charlie flipped out on nv and he's hated them ever since.

that's exactly what happened. I remember reading his explanation. The sad thing is that he seems to have much better sources lately than he did back when he was "unbiased".
 

n0x1ous

Platinum Member
Sep 9, 2010
2,572
248
106
that's exactly what happened. I remember reading his explanation. The sad thing is that he seems to have much better sources lately than he did back when he was "unbiased".

Bryan, thanks for the confirmation. Do you know what generation or what product he broke NDA on? I have been an enthusiast only since G80 and I can't remember him ever saying anything good about Nvidia since that time at least. Also if you or anyone has any links to his explanation that would be greatly appreciated. He never responds to any of the (well-deserved) criticism so it would be nice to know the details on how he became this way.
 

slash196

Golden Member
Nov 1, 2004
1,549
0
76
How can Barts Pro be in between the 5850 and the 460? The 460 BEATS the 5850 in some places. There's no room performance-wise to squeeze a part in there.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
How can Barts Pro be in between the 5850 and the 460? The 460 BEATS the 5850 in some places. There's no room performance-wise to squeeze a part in there.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Zotac/GeForce_GTX_460_1_GB/31.html

112 > 100 ("at all resolutions")

And the advantage just keeps going up from lower to higher resolutions. Check out the 23% gap between 5850 and GTX460-1GB at 2560x1600, for instance.

Likely you were comparing oc'd GTX460 to stock 5850, but 5850s can overclock just as well as GTX460s.
 

Ares1214

Senior member
Sep 12, 2010
268
0
0
How can Barts Pro be in between the 5850 and the 460? The 460 BEATS the 5850 in some places. There's no room performance-wise to squeeze a part in there.

Emphasis on the "some". Overall, the 5850 is faster than the 460 1 gig by about 10%. So it has some room to go in between them.
 

Tsavo

Platinum Member
Sep 29, 2009
2,645
37
91
How can Barts Pro be in between the 5850 and the 460? The 460 BEATS the 5850 in some places. There's no room performance-wise to squeeze a part in there.

The 5850 will be replaced by the 6770 in this market segment, so they don't have to squeeze anything anywhere.
 
Feb 19, 2009
10,457
10
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The 5850 will be replaced by the 6770 in this market segment, so they don't have to squeeze anything anywhere.

This. 5830/5850/5870 will all be EOL shortly after 6K release. There's no point in making them as they take up 40nm production and are bigger for less performance. The 5770 is going to hang around for a long time, OEM loves it and sales are strong.

The napoleon leak is based on vantage since its popular in Chinese reviews to use these older benchmarks. In dx9/10, 5870 will have a slight edge (~5%) over Barts XT, but its opposite (by a bigger margin) in dx11. Which is why i've said Barts XT >= 5870.

As for no recent news/leaks from NV, its because their AIB partners (the major source of leaks) have nothing new to leak. Though they did leak gts450 perf before release. So if there's anything new from NV, we'll hear about it.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Well, in all fairness, AMD claims a new architecture. 2+2 config instead of 4+1. So we have to see what it's capable of. Who knows, it could be a G80 type release, or another 2900XT. I hope not the latter. Also, when it's launched and if it doesn't impress much, there are always expected driver improvements for a new arch. I doubt the 6870 will be as fast as a 5970, but stranger things have happened in the past. According to leaks, it seems we don't have that long to wait and see.


I can't see this being a 2900XT type of let down. If the new 6xxx parts were under performing AMD could just quietly push back their release while they revise and stay with the current parts which are competing pretty well. I can't see any real reason to release under performing parts when they're already doing very well against Nvidia.
 

4ghz

Member
Sep 11, 2010
165
1
81
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Zotac/GeForce_GTX_460_1_GB/31.html

112 > 100 ("at all resolutions")

And the advantage just keeps going up from lower to higher resolutions. Check out the 23% gap between 5850 and GTX460-1GB at 2560x1600, for instance.

Likely you were comparing oc'd GTX460 to stock 5850, but 5850s can overclock just as well as GTX460s.

Their latest chart shows a gap of only 6% to 11% at all resolutions.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTS_450_SLI/23.html
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
Their latest chart shows a gap of only 6% to 11% at all resolutions.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTS_450_SLI/23.html

94/86 = 1.09 (all resolutions; at 19x12 and especially 25x16 the gap grows larger... for example, 5850 is 10.5% faster at 19x12 than GTX460-1GB)

Last time I checked, 1.09 > 1

Conclusion remains unchanged: 5850 is faster than GTX460-1GB

By the way, AT has a GPU Bench that lets you compare GPUs on game benchmarks, which I think is nifty: http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/180?vs=164 The bars near the bottom aren't GPU benches, they are temperature, noise, etc. comparisons. Even niftier!
 

klansek

Junior Member
Sep 14, 2010
10
0
0
Well, just one question - although Charlie is "energetic":sneaky: in his writings, his predictions about Fermi were spot on....so I do not see any validness in remarks of those who are almost saying that he is a complete moron, with no credible argument on his side. After all, he was saying all along that Fermi was a flop from economical point (i.e., they are not bringing profits to NVDA). Picking on words and not on content is childish for those who do that...not of those who write those words.()
 

Dark Shroud

Golden Member
Mar 26, 2010
1,576
1
0
Well, just one question - although Charlie is "energetic":sneaky: in his writings, his predictions about Fermi were spot on....so I do not see any validness in remarks of those who are almost saying that he is a complete moron, with no credible argument on his side. After all, he was saying all along that Fermi was a flop from economical point (i.e., they are not bringing profits to NVDA). Picking on words and not on content is childish for those who do that...not of those who write those words.()

Right now you're seeing much slinging from the green team because Nvidia has no news of new products. So now they make personal attacks because the claims/data/reports cannot be refuted.

So your saying this round is over even before the 6000 series releases?
WOW.

I said "looking" because Nvidia had their little press conference and showed nothing until 28nm. So unless they pull a massive rabbit out of a hat they're going to be behind AMD this coming round.

I'm also excited for 28nm because both Nvidia & AMD will be going head to head with new architecture. This is a good thing for all of us.
 

n0x1ous

Platinum Member
Sep 9, 2010
2,572
248
106
I think most realize that Charlie is right about some stuff, but he obviously has an anti-nvidia agenda and that permeates everything he writes.

I doubt Charlie knows that Fermi is an economical flop. Like I've said earlier, does anyone know the margins on Fermi? I dont think anyone but Nvidia knows that. It might not be margins like they have had in the past, but I doubt they are losing money. All conjecture anyway....

So I wouldn't say its "green team" people with nothing to talk about so they pick on Charlie. The reason it came up was because someone reference one of his articles and although he is right about some stuff, he is wrong about plenty as well.

Whenever nvidia does something good you know it because there is silence from Charlie and he'll talk about bumpgate for the 8 millionth time....
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
CHarlie is an a$$ , thats my point. Not a thread crap, but my opinion and A good one.a

It is a thread crap because this thread is not a about Charlie, it is about the expected availability of Radeon 6000 series cards.

Whether or not you like Charlie isn't relevant either, although if you think the information is unreliable for a better reason than you don't like him, then please state so. Bringing up unrelated crap about bias isn't helpful.

I think this subject matter deserves open debate by the VC&G community at large.

The subject matter being "does the credibility of the author of an article merit consideration/discussion when discussing the contents of the author's article?"

I am personally of the inclination that it is relevant, even when corporate spokespersons make official statements we tend to find the value in the contents of those statements only after we hash out the historical credibility and meaning used by the corporation in general. (e.g. shipping date versus purchase availability, TDP vs ACP, etc)

On the other hand I think bunnyfubbles is dead-on correct in that there is little value to be added to a thread in merely voicing one's subjective and negative opinion regarding the author of any given article.

Convincingly crafting a cohesive and fact-based post detailing the justification of the opinion is far more relevant to the thread topic as well as the value-added to the community at large.

(Including new members and lurkers who might not be operating with the benefit/disadvantage of a working history regarding the article author in question)

Such documentation need not be re-created and re-posted for every event in which the opportunity arises to post one's opinion, once created and posted it can always be linked as supportive documentation of one's opinion in future threads relating to the same author if it is warranted.

I am posting this moderator post here in this thread since the debate has already transpired in this thread.

However, I would really like to see this discussion take place in a thread all its own, either in VC&G (I would allow it since it will relate to future sub-forum specific moderator policy) or in PFI.

Moderator Idontcare
 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,713
1,067
136
@IDC:

i think this is a valid idea, but would suggest it include fudzilla, brightersideofnews, and any others; just to avoid the charlie specific vitriol.

A poll would help handicap the relative credibility of each author in the forum community, rather than relying on individual anecdote and avoid the "everyone knows this" arguments. (i.e.: rate S/A from 1 to 7 on how credible, rate FUDz from 1 to 7, etc.) Then use posts to elaborate on why. Unfortunately we cant do multi-polls in single threads.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
@IDC:

i think this is a valid idea, but would suggest it include fudzilla, brightersideofnews, and any others; just to avoid the charlie specific vitriol.

A poll would help handicap the relative credibility of each author in the forum community, rather than relying on individual anecdote and avoid the "everyone knows this" arguments. (i.e.: rate S/A from 1 to 7 on how credible, rate FUDz from 1 to 7, etc.) Then use posts to elaborate on why. Unfortunately we cant do multi-polls in single threads.

It was not my intent to make this be an author-specific policy, but rather a generalized policy regarding any author of any article from any website.

If someone posts a tech-report review article and another poster wishes to make a post to point out that the author of the article is "known" for mishandling reviews in the past and as such the then current review merits scrutiny and critique then the onus is upon the poster who is suggesting as much to justify why the author is considered questionable.

That justification can be a list of prior articles from the author which establishes a history of publication behaviour, or if such a post has already been made in the forums then the justification could be as little as linking to that prior post.

This is no different than how the issue of author credibility is handled in the academic circles for critiquing of peer-reviewed publications. But it need not be our policy, I just bring it up as a possible solution since that is my background.

But I really don't want it to become a ranking system or some such. We just need to agree on what is acceptable behaviour within our community when it comes to how we want to handle the posting on author credibility.

Whatever we agree upon it must be applicable across the board, I'm not interested in crafting or enforcing "special cases" policies.

But we owe it to ourselves to know what the expectations are when we elect to voice our negative opinion of a given author for a given article. Be it a Kanter article, a Charlie article, and even an [H]OCP article (if someone for some reason would ever find themselves taking issue with the author of their articles, for example).

Happy deserves to know what he needs to do to substantiate his negative opinion of Charlie such that his post is not a thread-crap just as much as I would want to know the same about my stating my opinion on the credibility of an author. If we establish the rules of engagement here then there won't be as much guesswork involved in the enforcement of that rule.
 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,713
1,067
136
Part of the reason i suggest an overall thread with polling is that many pro-NV advocates feel that a large percentage of the forum views charlie as "so biased" as to be ignorable. This makes them more comfortable/likely to counter any post with a simple ad hominem and no explanation.

If say a poll revealed the community is divided into 20%proNV/20%proAMD/60%undecided, then the pro advocates would be less inclined to think that everyone else views the situation as they do. They would then be more likely to expand on any counter argument.

The other reason for an overall thread is that those that do post anti charlie/fuad refutes end up posting them over and over in each thread that gets started.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
Complexity: the same author may be more or less credible depending on what he or she writes about. E.g., if Charlie writes about Sandforce vs Intel or something, is he as biased as when he writes about AMD vs NV?

For the record I would have been more skeptical if Charlie were all alone in the launch timeframe, but an AMD official already stated that a big chunk of their 6xxx rollout would occur before Christmas, and other rumors were floating around about a media event on or about Oct. 12, etc. Charlie's info corroborates with that, and he also specifically says mid-to-late Nov rollout for Cayman, which is something nobody before him had specifically stated. Other rumors also said Caymans have been in production for weeks now. Given the context in which Charlie's statement occurred, I think it's very believable.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,634
180
106
The problem of countering/dismissing rumour sites/authors is that we never know if the author does actually have sources, which might or might not be well informed and/or misinforming for some purpose, or is just creating rumours out of thin air. And there is even also the possibility the information was correct at the time and changes sometime in the future.

Rumours are just that, rumours. Everyone is free to consume it or not.

In addition is clear that Charlie when is speaking about NVIDIA is doing opinion, as he himself states on the end of their articles like:

Nvidia blames TSMC for Fermi's Failures

File under Microprocessors and Graphics and Opinion and Rumors and Humor and Desktop and Efficiency

Bold was added by me.

On the other hand the article debated in this thread is classified as
File under Graphics and Channel and Rumors and Desktop and Gaming and Software
.
 
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Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
Part of the reason i suggest an overall thread with polling is that many pro-NV advocates feel that a large percentage of the forum views charlie as "so biased" as to be ignorable. This makes them more comfortable/likely to counter any post with a simple ad hominem and no explanation.

If say a poll revealed the community is divided into 20%proNV/20%proAMD/60%undecided, then the pro advocates would be less inclined to think that everyone else views the situation as they do. They would then be more likely to expand on any counter argument.

The other reason for an overall thread is that those that do post anti charlie/fuad refutes end up posting them over and over in each thread that gets started.

Complexity: the same author may be more or less credible depending on what he or she writes about. E.g., if Charlie writes about Sandforce vs Intel or something, is he as biased as when he writes about AMD vs NV?

For the record I would have been more skeptical if Charlie were all alone in the launch timeframe, but an AMD official already stated that a big chunk of their 6xxx rollout would occur before Christmas, and other rumors were floating around about a media event on or about Oct. 12, etc. Charlie's info corroborates with that, and he also specifically says mid-to-late Nov rollout for Cayman, which is something nobody before him had specifically stated. Other rumors also said Caymans have been in production for weeks now. Given the context in which Charlie's statement occurred, I think it's very believable.

Remember guys the emphasis here needs to be on generality of the method and ease of enforcement.

Build the world's most perfect author credibility ranking system you can imagine but if it comes to represent a bewildering logic-table of if's and then's when it comes to the moderator's time involvement for enforcement then the system will be a fail at time zero.

Needs to be easily enforceable if it is going to be a VC&G forum policy. And it needs to have buy-in from the rest of the forum mods as well. I'm not alone here.

Its really up to you guys to put in the effort to make the community you want. As it stands right now, posts such as Happy Medium's above are going to be ruled as "acceptable/inactionable" because they are not member-callouts and they are simply representative of the poster's opinion regarding the credibility of the article underpinning the OP itself.

If the forum wants the bare minimum bar to be any higher than this standard then it is up to the forum to craft a proposal and present it to the mods, and the proposal's adoption will hinge critically on the breadth of the community that supports it as well as our expectations of it being easily enforceable.

The example I provided above was merely an example of something I know works in the real-world already and doesn't involve an excessive measure of time to enforce because it places the burden of proof on the person wishing to express their justified opinion.

It is really no different than when people make effort to justify their opinions on other topics, for example whether or not Steam Survey data can be leveraged as valid information for discussion XYZ. (this goes to GaiaHunter's argument regarding the complexity of assessing a specific author...the burden of convincingly waging such an assessment falls to the shoulders of the assessor)

Then it becomes a simpler matter for moderators to assess whether sufficient justification was delivered, as well as the fact the forum community itself will express as much anyways in the event that the justification is lacking.

The alternative is that we do nothing, status quo reigns victory another day, and I will continue to adapt the working definition of thread-crapping on a case-by-case basis in regards to posting negative sentiments of article authors.

In this specific case my viewpoint is that while Happy's post is a self-satisfying one he is allowed to express it but should not be surprised if his fellow members point out that on its own the expressed opinion doesn't really add value to the thread.

But from a moderator standpoint on ruling it a thread-crap or some such it is very much a "Conclusion: non-actionable" type situation.

(note: since the thread's OP - blastingcap - has weighed in on the subject here I do not feel it is entirely out-of-bounds for this discussion to continue in their thread, however I do feel it is best for the community if a new thread was created so that more community members might look into the thread and realize what is being discussed is not just Cayman topics)
 
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