CFLs or LEDs?

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Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
Right now, my entire house is CFLs. I thought about switching to LEDs as they burn out, but these CFLs just don't burn out; been installed since 2006 or 2007. Crazy how long they last.

Only the ones in our kitchen burn out regularly. They're not recessed, but the shade is pretty confining. And the kitchen is the warmest room in the house -- not just because of the cooking -- because it's the innermost room and the heating system is strongest there.
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,989
10
81
LED lamps replacements over 60W are rare because of heat.
It's difficult to dissipate that much heat out of such a small package.
As LEDs get more efficient, ~800-1000lm will create less and less heat.
I suppose they'll start putting them on heat pipes or something.
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
111
106
Personally, I hate the look of any kind of flourescent bulb. The only bulbs I will use in my home or work shop, would be either Halogen or LED types. LED quality has improved quite a bit in the last couple of years, you get excellent brightness, long life, cooler running and in most cases, lower cost to buy and run.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
LED lamps replacements over 60W are rare because of heat.
It's difficult to dissipate that much heat out of such a small package.
As LEDs get more efficient, ~800-1000lm will create less and less heat.

First 100W equivalent that I've seen:
http://www.homedepot.ca/product/22w-led-a-line-household/816315

I've seen the 75W for a while. it was $45 last I checked, now $30.
http://www.homedepot.ca/product/17w-led-a19-household/822304

Thing must be a monster.

Just realized that the bulb looks exactly like the yellow lens Philips bulbs. Looks like Philips is moving away from it. Freaking people out with the yellow? I love it.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
First 100W equivalent that I've seen:
http://www.homedepot.ca/product/22w-led-a-line-household/816315

I've seen the 75W for a while. it was $45 last I checked, now $30.
http://www.homedepot.ca/product/17w-led-a19-household/822304

Thing must be a monster.

Just realized that the bulb looks exactly like the yellow lens Philips bulbs. Looks like Philips is moving away from it. Freaking people out with the yellow? I love it.

Well that was a type of phosphor coating. I'm sure it could have been colored, on the outside, differently, but different LED companies have figured out different coatings for which color effect.

Interestingly, Cree's bulbs were always pretty clear. The phosphors and other color changing filters can also be applied right at the main LED level, like a coating covering the main LED elements, even though their is still a glass bulb layer. However Cree does it, they did add a layer to the glass for the TW (True White) series bulbs, and it's a little bit blue. It's a neodymium layer on the glass, the blue reacts with the outgoing light to create a notch in the spectrum that helps increase CRI. Apparently it has a big effect on how solid Reds look under the light, among all the other colors, but I guess saturated reds are something not often tested but commonly effected by overall lighting quality.
Oddly, even though incandescent didn't have a CRI problem (possibly did when it comes to reds/yellows, since soft-white lighting and the typical reddish cast does render whites with a color cast), GE also applied such a neodymium layer to the "Reveal" incandescent bulbs. If you ever saw the clear glass bulbs with what seemed like a hint of blue - that was why.

Not available in stores yet, but the soft-white (2700K) 75w Cree bulb is less than that Philips 75w bulb.
Either of those 75w or 100w Philips bulbs should work amazingly well if you can put up with the cost. I bought my first LED bulb for around that price, or a little bit more, from Philips. It had those yellowish filters on top (wasn't the L-prize bulb specifically, just their normal bulb at the time) - didn't bother me because I put it in my closet at the time.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
Well that was a type of phosphor coating. I'm sure it could have been colored, on the outside, differently, but different LED companies have figured out different coatings for which color effect.

I actually watched a Philips LED bulb strip down on Youtube (a waste cause it broke but cool). It looked like they moved the yellow lens inside to cover just the LED and made the outer lens white. I remember seeing reviews of those yellow bulbs by some people saying they looked hideous.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
I actually watched a Philips LED bulb strip down on Youtube (a waste cause it broke but cool). It looked like they moved the yellow lens inside to cover just the LED and made the outer lens white. I remember seeing reviews of those yellow bulbs by some people saying they looked hideous.

Smart.

For any exposed bulb, it was definitely not ideal to have that yellow exposed.

That said, while I think the look of the Philips bulbs are cool - they are NOT designed well for exposed fixtures. They really are best put out of sight. That's yet another reason I plan to stick by the Cree bulbs until competition brings anything better - they look like light bulbs when turned on, or off.
 

edro

Lifer
Apr 5, 2002
24,328
68
91
Colored LEDs will always outperform white LEDs. This is why they tried the remote phosphor designs (yellow bulb). With remote phosphor, you can use cutting edge blue LEDs and turn the light white at the outer interface.

It looks like the general public didn't accept it... so they are abandoning the remote phosphor designs. Remote phosphor doesn't give you much more efficiency anyway.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Colored LEDs will always outperform white LEDs. This is why they tried the remote phosphor designs (yellow bulb). With remote phosphor, you can use cutting edge blue LEDs and turn the light white at the outer interface.

It looks like the general public didn't accept it... so they are abandoning the remote phosphor designs. Remote phosphor doesn't give you much more efficiency anyway.

As was discussed, that's just the most exterior layer.
All of the LED bulb designs, for anything greater than a few watts (i.e. all the household bulbs from Cree, Philips, etc - not night light or decorative bulbs, I've no idea about those), produce light with colored LEDs and filter the light accordingly. Either the filter is visible, or it's not.

Most LED-based white light is NOT made with white LEDs. White LEDs exist, but for actual white lighting, they generally either utilize a full combination of RGB LEDs, or they filter from an incomplete spectrum.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
LED all the way for me. I just buy the Utilitech (Lowes brand) variety and they're awesome. Gradually replacing everything as the incandescents and CFLs die.

For ~100 W I'm getting 460W (incandescent equivalent) of light.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
First 100W equivalent that I've seen:
http://www.homedepot.ca/product/22w-led-a-line-household/816315

I've seen the 75W for a while. it was $45 last I checked, now $30.
http://www.homedepot.ca/product/17w-led-a19-household/822304

Thing must be a monster.

Just realized that the bulb looks exactly like the yellow lens Philips bulbs. Looks like Philips is moving away from it. Freaking people out with the yellow? I love it.

I use these 100W equivalents in my torch lamps.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_235583-7577...1&currentURL=?Ns=p_product_price|1&facetInfo=

Cost me about $30 each, but it'll save the difference over time.
 
May 11, 2008
20,068
1,293
126
Strange that you pay so much money for led lamps in the US. The most expensive led lamp i have is a 11 W philips model. I bought it for around 10 euro. Most led lamp here cost between 5 and 17 euro. The higher the led output, the more expensive.
 

edro

Lifer
Apr 5, 2002
24,328
68
91
As was discussed, that's just the most exterior layer.
All of the LED bulb designs, for anything greater than a few watts (i.e. all the household bulbs from Cree, Philips, etc - not night light or decorative bulbs, I've no idea about those), produce light with colored LEDs and filter the light accordingly. Either the filter is visible, or it's not.

Most LED-based white light is NOT made with white LEDs. White LEDs exist, but for actual white lighting, they generally either utilize a full combination of RGB LEDs, or they filter from an incomplete spectrum.
Right. Almost all modern white LEDs use a phosphor layer.
It's either at the chip level, or remote.
I thought that was pretty clear when I said "remote phosphor".
 

gamefreakgcb

Platinum Member
Sep 2, 2004
2,354
0
76
I'm slowly switching out to LED's. Bought $5 bulbs from Homedepot so far. 2700K and 5000K 60 watt bulbs for general purpose areas where light was being turned on and off many times.
 

Gillbot

Lifer
Jan 11, 2001
28,830
17
81
There's no way I could justify $30 per bulb regardless of the energy savings. It would take forever to payoff on those.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
There's no way I could justify $30 per bulb regardless of the energy savings. It would take forever to payoff on those.

It depends. For example if a 60 watt light is on 8 hours a day that's 0.48 kwh / day. Look at the highest rate on your electric bill (including the taxes and fees) and multiply that by 365 x .48.

For me that costs $16 per year. A 9.5 watt LED would cost $2.53 per year, so it pays for itself the first year. If a light was only on 4 hours a day then it would take about 2 years.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
There's no way I could justify $30 per bulb regardless of the energy savings. It would take forever to payoff on those.

Meh, think about it like buying a video card or processor or even a new smartphone. Those things will never pay for themselves. Since LED bulbs are more than a filament encased in glass or mercury encased in weird tubes that produce UV light that excite a phosphor coating, it kinda works?
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Right. Almost all modern white LEDs use a phosphor layer.
It's either at the chip level, or remote.
I thought that was pretty clear when I said "remote phosphor".

To me, it seemed like you implied phosphor, or no phosphor. My bad. You threw me for the loop with remote for whatever reason. I'm slow today.
 

Gillbot

Lifer
Jan 11, 2001
28,830
17
81
It depends. For example if a 60 watt light is on 8 hours a day that's 0.48 kwh / day. Look at the highest rate on your electric bill (including the taxes and fees) and multiply that by 365 x .48.

For me that costs $16 per year. A 9.5 watt LED would cost $2.53 per year, so it pays for itself the first year. If a light was only on 4 hours a day then it would take about 2 years.

All of my fixtures that get heavy use already have CFL's. Anything that sees infrequent use like closet lights still have incandescent bulbs. (Only until they all burn out, then they'll get CFL's also.) So the cost justification for buying a $30+ bulb vs the much cheaper $1 or less per bulb CFL would need to be made by energy savings. IMHO, that will never net a payoff as far as i'm concerned.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
I've been disappointed in the CFL bulbs. They're INCREDIBLY fragile, burn out faster than I expected, and I simply don't like the light output of them.

LED's are really interesting engineering specimens if you ever take a look at them. Also, incredibly expensive...I've seen prices like $25 for a bulb, but at least they should last forever.
 

Gillbot

Lifer
Jan 11, 2001
28,830
17
81
I've been disappointed in the CFL bulbs. They're INCREDIBLY fragile, burn out faster than I expected, and I simply don't like the light output of them.

LED's are really interesting engineering specimens if you ever take a look at them. Also, incredibly expensive...I've seen prices like $25 for a bulb, but at least they should last forever.

I agree, but at this point in the game the CFL's I have were actually less than free for me so I can't complain. See my post here. After the first two "bad" batches, i've gotten more back in replacements than I initially paid so I can't complain at all. So far these later boxes have been lasting quite well.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,936
12,384
126
www.anyf.ca
CFLs can be hit and miss. I've had a couple break prematurely (some due to my own mistake such as hitting it with a 2x4) but the ones that lasted have been lasting for over 3 years now.

You don't want to use them in places like the bathroom where they get turned on/off a lot for short periods of time. If you turn one on you should leave it on for at least 15 minutes. At least that's what I heard, and it's a rule I try to go by and it's worked so far.

When I do laundry I'm up and down the basement all day, so I just leave all the lights on. Now I suppose if I really wanted to get scientific I'd calculate how much power I'm using, vs how much faster they would burn out if I open/closed them each time, and figure out which one saves me more money, but I can't be bothered.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
Personally, I hate the look of any kind of flourescent bulb. The only bulbs I will use in my home or work shop, would be either Halogen or LED types. LED quality has improved quite a bit in the last couple of years, you get excellent brightness, long life, cooler running and in most cases, lower cost to buy and run.
Most of the ones sold in stores are the cool (blue) color temperature, or maybe neutral. The warm whites aren't as common, at least from what I've seen.
But you can get fluorescents and LEDs which put out light that is very similar to incandescent or halogen, to the point that you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference. As with many things though, with higher quality comes higher price. And in LEDs, because of the way they make white light, warmer light results in less light, which means the marketing department can't put BIG numbers on the packaging. It's like what you've got in the digital camera arena. Megapixels are all that matter. It's a big number, and it's next to two big capital letters. Doesn't matter if it's a 50MP camera that spits out garbage that looks like a webcam from 1997. It's 50 megapixels! Likewise, it doesn't matter if you're getting 4000 lumens of light that looks like crap, versus 2500 that gives you excellent quality lighting. The one with bigger numbers tends to win.


Colored LEDs will always outperform white LEDs. This is why they tried the remote phosphor designs (yellow bulb). With remote phosphor, you can use cutting edge blue LEDs and turn the light white at the outer interface.

It looks like the general public didn't accept it... so they are abandoning the remote phosphor designs. Remote phosphor doesn't give you much more efficiency anyway.
I think the remote phosphor was done for manufacturing flexibility, which can translate to lower cost.
Got a remote phosphor layer? Great. Just throw "royal blue LED" in behind it, and you're good to go. The electronics can change as the technology improves, even to the point of using entirely different LED packaging with new circuitboard layouts. The phosphor coating is perfectly happy converting blue light, regardless of what the emitter looks like. And it's one less thing that they have to worry about while making the delicate LEDs.



As was discussed, that's just the most exterior layer.
All of the LED bulb designs, for anything greater than a few watts (i.e. all the household bulbs from Cree, Philips, etc - not night light or decorative bulbs, I've no idea about those), produce light with colored LEDs and filter the light accordingly. Either the filter is visible, or it's not.

Most LED-based white light is NOT made with white LEDs. White LEDs exist, but for actual white lighting, they generally either utilize a full combination of RGB LEDs, or they filter from an incomplete spectrum.
And we still don't have the holy grail RGB LED, for various reasons.
1) The light mix will vary over time as the LEDs age at different rates.
2) The light mix has to be tuned for the bins of LED. Due to normal variations in manufacturing, a single model of LED will have variations in brightness, drive voltage, and color output.
3) Green is a bastard, and it's partly the fault of your eyes. Our eyes are very sensitive to green light. In that part of the spectrum, a shift in wavelength of 2 nanometers is visible as a color difference. A normal LED bin size is 5 nanometers wide, so even within a single bin, you can get visible variation. (If you order a specific bin of LED, you might get something that's 525-530 nanometers. If you order an LED from a place like Mouser, you might get anything from 520-540nm.) Compare that to red LEDs. A lot of LED manufacturers don't even offer bins for red. You get what they make, and that range could span 20+ nanometers. Some that do break it down still don't fine-tune it. You can get 620-630nm, or 630-645. Your eyes aren't as sensitive to color shifts on that part of the spectrum, so it doesn't matter as much.
4) The output colors of LEDs don't quite match the peak absorption bands of our eyes - it'd be ideal of course if we could match their output to the inputs we're looking for. (The cheap pun is free. You're welcome.) So it's tough to produce true RGB lighting when the emitters aren't really the "correct" red, green, or blue.


I'll also throw in, as a fan of bright LEDs since "bright" meant "1000mcd....ooooOOOOOooohh!" , this is fun to play with. The way I'm driving it, it should be putting out around 3400 lumens, from a circle that's about 0.27in².
Pushed to maximum, it could exceed 5000 lumens. It would also be consuming close to 70 watts. Not all LEDs are "cool" or "low power."
The cool white emitters in that family would max out at 7000 lumens, for cool white that's more along the lines of a cheap fluorescent shop light.
 
Last edited:

Gillbot

Lifer
Jan 11, 2001
28,830
17
81
CFLs can be hit and miss. I've had a couple break prematurely (some due to my own mistake such as hitting it with a 2x4) but the ones that lasted have been lasting for over 3 years now.

You don't want to use them in places like the bathroom where they get turned on/off a lot for short periods of time. If you turn one on you should leave it on for at least 15 minutes. At least that's what I heard, and it's a rule I try to go by and it's worked so far.

When I do laundry I'm up and down the basement all day, so I just leave all the lights on. Now I suppose if I really wanted to get scientific I'd calculate how much power I'm using, vs how much faster they would burn out if I open/closed them each time, and figure out which one saves me more money, but I can't be bothered.

Most of my first box died in less than 6 months regardless of where they were used. The 2nd box they lasted MAYBE a year tops but the 3rd have been 3+ years I believe. I know they shouldn't be used for extremely short periods but the rep I spoke with after the bad 2nd box assured me that they don't recommend them for bathroom use mostly due to moisture. The short on/off cycles shouldn't bother them that much compared to the moisture.
 
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