Charles Krauthammer: I only have a few weeks left to live.

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Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
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I'm not sure what you think your link says. Your post gives me an impression of you as an idealogue which whom civil discussion is worthless.

It's from this article from 2014-07-17:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-moral-clarity-in-gaza/2014/07/17/0adabe0c-0de4-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html

Moral clarity in Gaza

Israel accepts an Egyptian-proposed Gaza cease-fire; Hamas keeps firing. Hamas deliberately aims rockets at civilians; Israel painstakingly tries to avoid them, actually telephoning civilians in the area and dropping warning charges, so-called roof knocking.

“Here’s the difference between us,” explains the Israeli prime minister. “We’re using missile defense to protect our civilians, and they’re using their civilians to protect their missiles.”

Rarely does international politics present a moment of such moral clarity. Yet we routinely hear this Israel-Gaza fighting described as a morally equivalent “cycle of violence.” This is absurd. What possible interest can Israel have in cross-border fighting? Everyone knows Hamas set off this mini-war. And everyone knows the proudly self-declared raison d’etre of Hamas: the eradication of Israel and its Jews.

Apologists for Hamas attribute the blood lust to the Israeli occupation and blockade. Occupation? Does no one remember anything? It was less than 10 years ago that worldwide television showed the Israeli army pulling die-hard settlers off synagogue roofs in Gaza as Israel uprooted its settlements, expelled its citizens, withdrew its military and turned every inch of Gaza over to the Palestinians. There was not a soldier, not a settler, not a single Israeli left in Gaza.

And there was no blockade. On the contrary. Israel wanted this new Palestinian state to succeed. To help the Gaza economy, Israel gave the Palestinians its 3,000 greenhouses that had produced fruit and flowers for export. It opened border crossings and encouraged commerce.

The whole idea was to establish the model for two states living peacefully and productively side by side. No one seems to remember that, simultaneous with the Gaza withdrawal, Israel dismantled four smaller settlements in the northern West Bank as a clear signal of Israel’s desire to leave the West Bank as well and thus achieve an amicable two-state solution.

This is not ancient history. This was nine years ago.

And how did the Gaza Palestinians react to being granted by the Israelis what no previous ruler, neither Egyptian, nor British, nor Turkish, had ever given them — an independent territory? First, they demolished the greenhouses. Then they elected Hamas. Then, instead of building a state with its attendant political and economic institutions, they spent the better part of a decade turning Gaza into a massive military base, brimming with terror weapons, to make ceaseless war on Israel.

Where are the roads and rail, the industry and infrastructure of the new Palestinian state? Nowhere. Instead, they built mile upon mile of underground tunnels to hide their weapons and, when the going gets tough, their military commanders. They spent millions importing and producing rockets, launchers, mortars, small arms, even drones. They deliberately placed them in schools, hospitals, mosques and private homes to better expose their own civilians. (Just Thursday, the U.N. announced that it found 20 rockets in a Gaza school.) And from which they fire rockets at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

Why? The rockets can’t even inflict serious damage, being almost uniformly intercepted by Israel’s Iron Dome anti-missile system. Even West Bank leader Mahmoud Abbas has asked: “What are you trying to achieve by sending rockets?”

It makes no sense. Unless you understand, as Tuesday’s Post editorial explained, that the whole point is to draw Israeli counterfire.

This produces dead Palestinians for international television. Which is why Hamas perversely urges its own people not to seek safetywhen Israel drops leaflets warning of an imminent attack.

To deliberately wage war so that your own people can be telegenically killed is indeed moral and tactical insanity. But it rests on a very rational premise: Given the Orwellian state of the world’s treatment of Israel (see: the U.N.’s grotesque Human Rights Council), fueled by a mix of classic anti-Semitism, near-total historical ignorance and reflexive sympathy for the ostensible Third World underdog, these eruptions featuring Palestinian casualties ultimately undermine support for Israel’s legitimacy and right to self-defense.

In a world of such Kafkaesque ethical inversions, the depravity of Hamas begins to make sense. This is a world in which the Munich massacre is a movie and the murder of Klinghoffer is an opera — both deeply sympathetic to the killers. This is a world in which the U.N. ignores humanity’s worst war criminals while incessantly condemning Israel, a state warred upon for 66 years that nonetheless goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid harming the very innocents its enemies use as shields.

It’s to the Israelis’ credit that amid all this madness they haven’t lost their moral scruples. Or their nerve. Those outside the region have the minimum obligation, therefore, to expose the madness and speak the truth. Rarely has it been so blindingly clear.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,570
7,631
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But he was correct. Human sacrifice is exactly what the terrorist organization, Hamas, does. They commit acts of war and violence hoping to provoke a response. They are largely ineffective, but all it takes is one dead medic while assailing the border to gain your sympathy. Is it any wonder that they recognize how they benefit from human sacrifice?
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
But he was correct. Human sacrifice is exactly what the terrorist organization, Hamas, does. They commit acts of war and violence hoping to provoke a response. They are largely ineffective, but all it takes is one dead medic while assailing the border to gain your sympathy. Is it any wonder that they recognize how they benefit from human sacrifice?

This is at once right, but doesn't entirely let Israel off the hook.

Israel still tends to do things that are needlessly provocative (setting up a new settlement in the West Bank, for instance) and tends to act as if anything it does in the pursuit of self-defense is valid... that is, the ends always justify the means. We killed 10 civilians to take out one Hamas figure with a missile? Oh well. (The US occasionally has this problem as well with drone and missile strikes, but that doesn't make it right.)

I remember reading an article (which I wish I could reference) which described the Israeli mindset as something akin to "five minutes from apocalypse." That is, it's convinced the slightest deviation from a hardline stance, the slightest diplomatic concession or restrained military response, means the end of everything. You let Iran pursue peaceful nuclear power with strict supervision? Well, that's it, the nukes will rain on Jerusalem tomorrow and it's all over. The fear is understandable given the past century, but it hinders peace efforts by preventing some forms of rational, meaningful compromise.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,234
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Why was Razan Najjar killed?
Because there's a conflict going on. Sorry.

Supporting Hamas is definitely not in the interest of protecting innocent civilian lives.

That is exactly the kind of collateral damage Hamas wants. They want to gain your support by manipulating your feelings. Krauthammer was specifically addressing this with his comments.

"Fuck Krauthammer for caring that innocent people are dying and for writing about it."
 
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Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,234
136
This is at once right, but doesn't entirely let Israel off the hook.

Israel still tends to do things that are needlessly provocative (setting up a new settlement in the West Bank, for instance) and tends to act as if anything it does in the pursuit of self-defense is valid... that is, the ends always justify the means. We killed 10 civilians to take out one Hamas figure with a missile? Oh well. (The US occasionally has this problem as well with drone and missile strikes, but that doesn't make it right.)

I remember reading an article (which I wish I could reference) which described the Israeli mindset as something akin to "five minutes from apocalypse." That is, it's convinced the slightest deviation from a hardline stance, the slightest diplomatic concession or restrained military response, means the end of everything. You let Iran pursue peaceful nuclear power with strict supervision? Well, that's it, the nukes will rain on Jerusalem tomorrow and it's all over. The fear is understandable given the past century, but it hinders peace efforts by preventing some forms of rational, meaningful compromise.
They're surrounded with people and states that want to exterminate them. It's the stated purpose of Hamas.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,234
136
But he was correct. Human sacrifice is exactly what the terrorist organization, Hamas, does. They commit acts of war and violence hoping to provoke a response. They are largely ineffective, but all it takes is one dead medic while assailing the border to gain your sympathy. Is it any wonder that they recognize how they benefit from human sacrifice?

You called it.

Why was Razan Najjar killed?
 
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Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
They're surrounded with people and states that want to exterminate them. It's the stated purpose of Hamas.

Ah, but that's the thing: Israel uses this "we're surrounded" argument to justify things that aren't always justifiable. See, we had to blow up that ambulance and the dozen civilians nearby, because we're always five minutes from complete annihilation and who knows what that mid-rank Hamas official might have done?

This isn't to position myself as one of those contrarian "Israel is the true villain" types. Rather, it's that I'm equally annoyed by the Krauthammer types who bend over backwards to support Israel's tactics at all costs, as if anything less than total agreement with its methods is tantamount to anti-Semitism.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
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That's not a reason. She had her hands up and was a uniformed medic approaching wounded men at the fence line. Why was she killed?
Somebody fucked up. It's as simple as that. I'm sure Israel doesn't have a policy that advocates killing her in that scenario. War sucks. Mistakes are made. Atrocities are committed. Innocents die. If you think Israel's policy condones the intentional killing of innocents and Hamas does not, you are living in a delusion.

Hamas' policy is to target and attack innocent civilians and exterminate the Jews.
 
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Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,234
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Ah, but that's the thing: Israel uses this "we're surrounded" argument to justify things that aren't always justifiable. See, we had to blow up that ambulance and the dozen civilians nearby, because we're always five minutes from complete annihilation and who knows what that mid-rank Hamas official might have done?
What is the motive for attacking an ambulance and civilians? Why would they want an excuse to do it?

The optics are very damaging. Israel knows it. Hamas knows it.

Israel doesn't want to see innocent Palestinians killed and have people like you rally against them. Hamas specifically wants those innocent Palestinians to die to gain your support. You've been manipulated.

Hamas also targets innocent Israelis with their rockets. Specifically.

So Hamas wants innocents to die on both sides.
 
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Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
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I'm sure they don't have a policy that advocates killing her in that scenario.

What the fuck does that word salad even mean? She was shot in the chest approaching wounded men. WHY WAS SHE KILLED?

Hamas' policy is to target and attack innocent civilians and exterminate the Jews.

Why do you keep bringing up Hamas? You don't know shit about Hamas, (e.g. your ludicrous claim about their "policy" which you obviously can't support) and in any case, there's no evidence that she was a member of Hamas.

Oh right, it's because you're a racist that dehumanizes Palestinians to justify obvious war crimes like this one.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,234
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What the fuck does that word salad even mean? She was shot in the chest approaching wounded men. WHY WAS SHE KILLED?
Your selective moral outrage is showing.

Here's my finished post:

Somebody fucked up. It's as simple as that. I'm sure Israel doesn't have a policy that advocates killing her in that scenario. War sucks. Mistakes are made. Atrocities are committed. Innocents die. If you think Israel's policy condones the intentional killing of innocents and Hamas does not, you are living in a delusion.

Hamas' policy is to target and attack innocent civilians and exterminate the Jews.

Why do you keep bringing up Hamas?
Because that's who Israel is fighting. In defense of innocent civilians that are being specifically targeted by Hamas, which apparently must be noted. The conflict with Hamas is the subject of Krauthammer's article and his comment, which you seem to think is somehow damning and worthy of vilification / derision.

You don't know shit about Hamas, (e.g. your ludicrous claim about their "policy" which you obviously can't support)
Really? Try again.

and in any case, there's no evidence that she was a member of Hamas.
No one said she was. She was an innocent casualty. Someone fucked up.

Oh right, it's because you're a racist that dehumanizes Palestinians to justify obvious war crimes like this one.
You call someone "racist" while supporting Hamas. You've lost.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
Your selective moral outrage is showing.

You're accusing me of selective moral outrage while your side is using "fire kites" to justify continued brutality. Just beautiful.

Because that's who Israel is fighting. In defense of innocent civilians that are being specifically targeted by Hamas, which apparently must be noted. The conflict with Hamas is the subject of Krauthammer's article and his comment, which you seem to think is somehow damning and worthy of vilification / derision.

But we were discussing Najjar.

Really? Try again.

Try again what? I said you can't support a claim, and that's your response?

No one said she was. She was an innocent casualty. Someone fucked up.

Actually, Israel tried to claim she was. Wow, you're so anxious to defend her killing you can't even bother to look up basic facts.

You call someone "racist" while supporting Hamas. You've lost.

Good for me. You can't bring yourself to condemn the killing of a 21 year old unarmed uniformed medic. You're a garbage human being and not worth engaging any further.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
What is the motive for attacking an ambulance and civilians? Why would they want an excuse to do it?

The optics are very damaging. They know it. Hamas knows it.

It's not that they're purposefully singling out civilians, it's that they consider these sort of tactics completely acceptable if it achieves the ultimate goal of taking out a deemed threat. There is a significant Hamas or Hezbollah member that 'must' be killed; any method of killing that member that won't provoke an all-out war is on the table, even if most of the casualties are guaranteed to be civilians.

And therein lies the problem. Israel may ultimately have good reason to be nervous, but it uses tactics that fuel its opponents -- and blasts anyone who dares suggest that those tactics are anything less than totally justified. There's no room in their view for someone to offer a rational suggestion like minimizing civilian casualties.
 
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