Chechen suicide-bombers sieze 200 schoolchildren

[Nocturnal]

Originally posted by: Argo

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: Argo
It has nothing to do with religion but rather with poverty levels. A lot of the same sh*t goes on in africa, it just doesn't get as much attention from media because they're killing other africans, rather than white people. Sorry, had to say that.

I don't see welfare moms binding together to take out nurseries in the States. I don't see gangbangers in Watts holding schoolbuses as hostages.

It's not about fvcking poverty level, it's about being inherently evil and not respecting the value of human life.

Trust me, your welfare moms aren't even 10th as poor as some of the people in developing countries. Being poor is when you can't afford to buy dinner for you and 5 of your kids. It's when your 5 year old has to work to provide food for himself. We are spoiled here - we got homeless shelters, charities, welfare programs that take care of the poor. It's nothing close to what some of the developing countries have to go through.

And btw, just to prove my point that it's poverty rather than religion - how many terrorists are from rich arab countries? Like UAE, Kuwait or Qatar? Notice, how most of them are from Palestine, Iraq, etc.

Don't you think they should have thought about that before popping out five kids? I mean gee, yeah I can't really feed these five kids I'm about to create but who cares, I'll just pop them out in hopes that they become suicide bombers, yay!

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Originally posted by: Nocturnal

Don't you think they should have thought about that before popping out five kids? I mean gee, yeah I can't really feed these five kids I'm about to create but who cares, I'll just pop them out in hopes that they become suicide bombers, yay!

How is that at all relevant to the debate?

 

[torpid]

OK, so your basic idea is that although the quran doesn't actually advocate extremist violence, it nonetheless could be / has been interpreted (more like rationalized) out of context that way, and then possibly as a result the whole religion is suspect?

 

[Nocturnal]

Originally posted by: Nocturnal

Originally posted by: Argo

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: Argo
It has nothing to do with religion but rather with poverty levels. A lot of the same sh*t goes on in africa, it just doesn't get as much attention from media because they're killing other africans, rather than white people. Sorry, had to say that.

I don't see welfare moms binding together to take out nurseries in the States. I don't see gangbangers in Watts holding schoolbuses as hostages.

It's not about fvcking poverty level, it's about being inherently evil and not respecting the value of human life.

Trust me, your welfare moms aren't even 10th as poor as some of the people in developing countries. Being poor is when you can't afford to buy dinner for you and 5 of your kids. It's when your 5 year old has to work to provide food for himself. We are spoiled here - we got homeless shelters, charities, welfare programs that take care of the poor. It's nothing close to what some of the developing countries have to go through.

And btw, just to prove my point that it's poverty rather than religion - how many terrorists are from rich arab countries? Like UAE, Kuwait or Qatar? Notice, how most of them are from Palestine, Iraq, etc.

Don't you think they should have thought about that before popping out five kids? I mean gee, yeah I can't really feed these five kids I'm about to create but who cares, I'll just pop them out in hopes that they become suicide bombers, yay!

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

I still don't see how it's relevant. Yes, people multiply -- particularly poor people. I don't think they're going to stop.

And by the way, if it weren't for poor white people multiplying like rabbits, the world would not be ruled by white people. Poor people love pumping out offspring. What's your point?

 

[Argo]

Originally posted by: Nocturnal

Originally posted by: Nocturnal

Originally posted by: Argo

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: Argo
It has nothing to do with religion but rather with poverty levels. A lot of the same sh*t goes on in africa, it just doesn't get as much attention from media because they're killing other africans, rather than white people. Sorry, had to say that.

I don't see welfare moms binding together to take out nurseries in the States. I don't see gangbangers in Watts holding schoolbuses as hostages.

It's not about fvcking poverty level, it's about being inherently evil and not respecting the value of human life.

Trust me, your welfare moms aren't even 10th as poor as some of the people in developing countries. Being poor is when you can't afford to buy dinner for you and 5 of your kids. It's when your 5 year old has to work to provide food for himself. We are spoiled here - we got homeless shelters, charities, welfare programs that take care of the poor. It's nothing close to what some of the developing countries have to go through.

And btw, just to prove my point that it's poverty rather than religion - how many terrorists are from rich arab countries? Like UAE, Kuwait or Qatar? Notice, how most of them are from Palestine, Iraq, etc.

Don't you think they should have thought about that before popping out five kids? I mean gee, yeah I can't really feed these five kids I'm about to create but who cares, I'll just pop them out in hopes that they become suicide bombers, yay!

Hey, when there's nothing to do, sex is the only entertaintment

 

[amcdonald]

I didn't read this thread, because it's freaking ridiculous.... but does this remind anyone of that movie with wesley crusher?

 

[TheAudit]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: Scribe


It's not a matter of religion, but it's a great excuse. If you look around the world, Muslim people live in the most repressive societies, poorest societies, and the only thing they can turn to for 'education' is their holy book, which is skewed by many just to pass along a political message, ala Chechnya.

I find it strange that so many people downplay the role of religion in the current situation most muslims are in.
I might be wrong but weren't the muslims/middle easterners a more advanced society than europe at one point? The europeans advanced, had a renaissance and thrived, despite their religion which often stood in the way of progress. We know that terrible things were committed in the name of christianity like the inquisition, but europe changed, christianity changed and went through reformations and became more civilized.

But why hasn't Islam changed with the times? Thats why I think so many muslims are in such a bad situation. It is a combination of their religion and socio-economic factors. Part of the Islamic faith is that it is the one true and perfect religion. The koran is perfect and cannot be changed or interpreted differently. Questions can't be asked, its perfect, accept it or die. And so they stay chained down by an outdated religion. Today muslims see the west and all the freedom and success and they want that too. But then they know their religion forbids much of the western way of life and feel cheated and angry that they are living so poorly. Thats why I think they hate the west so much, it makes them have an identity crisis and doubt what is undoutable. Add in a severe education vacuum and you have a terrorist breeding ground.

Also Islam seems to be more predisposed to violance than modern christianity. Compare Mohamad to Jesus. Jesus was all about turn the other cheek, pray for your enemies, etc. Mohamad prefered to kill his enemies . Look at the Salman Rusdie thing from 89. Can you imagine the pope ordering a worldwide hit be placed on monty python for making fun of christianity. Practically the whole islamic world supported murdering Rushdie for writing a book.

Ahh thats enough opinionated ranting from this no0b

Good post.

 

[Shyatic]

Originally posted by: Shockwave

Originally posted by: Scribe

*Any* religion is capable of this though. Put a group of religious groups in territories highly valued by superpowers, make sure they have dictatorships backed by those superpowers, make sure their poverty level is extremely high and education extremely low and booyah, you will have yourself Christian fundamentalists that do the exact same thing.

It's not a matter of religion, but it's a great excuse. If you look around the world, Muslim people live in the most repressive societies, poorest societies, and the only thing they can turn to for 'education' is their holy book, which is skewed by many just to pass along a political message, ala Chechnya.

Sadly we think this is a war that can be won with guns, tanks and bullets, when it's really a war that needs to attack the ideologies of a century's worth of repression and poverty that needs to be combatted. We won't change a suicide bomber's mind if we threaten to kill them. If they can take out more of us than we do of them via suicide bomb it doesn't matter to them. However if we show the younger generations (the ones being recruited for all this crap) that peace will be available to them, as well as education, jobs, food, etc... then what motivation would they have for doing this?

It won't stop tomorrow... but it needs to be started soon. And nobody's willing to step up to that plate.

Typical hippie solution..
"Its economics...There nice people deep down" and just throw money at the situation rather then dealing with it like it should be delt with. Alas, that is the perfect example of why America will never, ever win the war against terrorism.

Hippie solution eh? So your solution is to spend billions on weaponry and intelligence that will stop a handful of attacks but not attack the CORE of the problem? If that's your idea of being a hippie, then a hippie I must be.

I don't think they are 'nice people deep down' but they value many of the same things we do -- their family, being able to provide for their family, and watching their children grow up. Now granted they have skewed beliefs of Jews and the superpowers that are distorted and really disturbing, and that's why it's going to take a LONG time to win this war because right now all those repressed people see is a dismal fate and they are willing to fight and die for their war.

America right now is teetering with political mayhem because we have lost 900+ soldiers in Iraq. But to truly fight the enemy as they would fight us, our death rate would be far higher, and no politician is willing to sacrifice that and probably rightly so. However they offer us piecemeal solutions like removing Saddam that ultimately doesn't do anything to combat terrorism and instead, grows more hatred towards the US.

Like I said... it's not a solution that's going to be won with guns or bullets, but with policy and action. We have to stop be biased in our worldwide negotiations with places like Israel and be more fair because even if monetarily it may hurt us, it protects us more to be fair at the table when dealing with terrorism at its roots.

I think you need to watch that documentary Death in Gaza on HBO... it was a real eye-opener as far as what Palestinians think about Jews and Israelis at such a young age. And the only way to combat that is education, regardless of how hippie you think that may be -- but I'm also not as gung-ho as that idiot President we have now either.... so there's probably no pleasing you.

 

[Shyatic]

Originally posted by: hscorpio
I find it strange that so many people downplay the role of religion in the current situation most muslims are in.
I might be wrong but weren't the muslims/middle easterners a more advanced society than europe at one point? The europeans advanced, had a renaissance and thrived, despite their religion which often stood in the way of progress. We know that terrible things were committed in the name of christianity like the inquisition, but europe changed, christianity changed and went through reformations and became more civilized.

But why hasn't Islam changed with the times? Thats why I think so many muslims are in such a bad situation. It is a combination of their religion and socio-economic factors. Part of the Islamic faith is that it is the one true and perfect religion. The koran is perfect and cannot be changed or interpreted differently. Questions can't be asked, its perfect, accept it or die. And so they stay chained down by an outdated religion. Today muslims see the west and all the freedom and success and they want that too. But then they know their religion forbids much of the western way of life and feel cheated and angry that they are living so poorly. Thats why I think they hate the west so much, it makes them have an identity crisis and doubt what is undoutable. Add in a severe education vacuum and you have a terrorist breeding ground.

Also Islam seems to be more predisposed to violance than modern christianity. Compare Mohamad to Jesus. Jesus was all about turn the other cheek, pray for your enemies, etc. Mohamad prefered to kill his enemies . Look at the Salman Rusdie thing from 89. Can you imagine the pope ordering a worldwide hit be placed on monty python for making fun of christianity. Practically the whole islamic world supported murdering Rushdie for writing a book.

Ahh thats enough opinionated ranting from this no0b

Yes, I completely agree with most of what you have to say. Having grown up Muslim (and then abandoned that religion and religion as a whole entirely) I know first hand what you're talking about, however there are a few caveats.

I wish it was the case that Muslims would 'get with the times' but unfortunately the clerics wield more power than the government in most countries. There's good reason for this though -- they can promise people food, housing, education -- all things that the governments cannot. So to go this route is the more popular one for most people in these countries and as a result, we have generation upon generation of those who hate the US and its allies.

The Muslim countries of the world, by in large, are very oil-rich countries. Now the imperial powers of Britain, France and the US (to a lesser extent) felt it would be in their best interest to 'back' leaders to be dictators and thus, undercut the price of oil for them. This is why the CIA overthrew a democratically elected official from Iran and reinstalled the Shah, a brutal dictator who was a crazy lunatic wielding religion as a weapon both offensive and defensively. People believed him too -- where else were they going to get proof? The internet wasn't around to prove the Shah wrong, and there was no independant media, so there are generations of people that believe what the Shah had to say, and also when the Shah said "im gonna git u sucka" to Salman Rushdie, then all of Iran was with him on that.

Saudi Arabia's another country like that. Did you know in the Quran that a monarchy is EXPRESSLY forbidden? Yet the Saudi Royal Family has been running a 'religious' police that beats people in public (and worse) for not following the religion, while the Saudis run to Turkey to get hookers and booze, and also have made the Guiness Book of World Records for the most money lost EVER in gambling. And the US supports them wholeheartedly, without question, so the Saudi people hate us for it. They are being repressed by an illigitmate regime backed by the US, and that's what Osama capitalized on -- fighting the enemies of the Saudis including the Saudis themselves.

Saddam is another guy we gave TONS of money to, in order to secure oil contract. It's easy for President Bush to say that he committed all kinds of atrocities against people (which is 100% true) while ignoring the fact that we gave him the weapons to do it with, to fight Iran. He just happened to save some weapons and used them to gas and kill the opposing faction of Kurds in the north that wouldn't accept his rule and now have cabinet posts and all kinds of goodies in the new Iraqi Congress.

And we think that nobody's gonna get pissed off cuz of this? While it's not entirely the case that the US is their only enemy, it's not like the US is any friend of the Muslim people of these countries. And that's where some of this stems from.

Now the rest of being that fvcking crazy well -- I don't know, and I don't want to know. I just don't want to see it any more, because taking children hostage in a school is more fvcked up than I can even think about. In fact... I'm gonna stop here, because I'm hungry and I don't want to upset my stomach.

Ciao.

 

[1pinky]

That was in the dark ages! Welcome to 2004!!!

No one has the right to take a human life, no matter how bad your world may be crashing down around you. If these people want to kill, they should take thier own lives. It will make this a better place to live in. Thats my oppinion.

 

[TitanDiddly]

We need a plethora on snipers, sycronyzed timepieces, and military precision. Headshots all around, all at once.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: NuclearNed

Originally posted by: jyates

Originally posted by: NuclearNed

Originally posted by: jumpr

Originally posted by: NFS4
If their "religion" tells them to do this, then their god needs to be assasinated

It doesn't. I'm not trying to lessen the impact of the hostage-takers' actions, but they're extremist Muslim fundamentalists. They do not represent the bulk of Muslims around the world.

I used to believe what you just said, but lately I'm beginning to be a little skeptical.

It doesn't take but a few out of control followers of any crowd to give the whole
group a black eye very quickly.

Believe me, I'm not saying that all Muslims are evil or anything. It just seems like there are an awful lot of Muslims who seem ok (even gleeful) with committing atrocities in the name of their god. And where is the outcry from fellow Muslims? Its nonexistant except in the case when one of their lackeys (France) is affected.

So where is the great outcry in the Islamic world against this kind of violence?

/*tumbleweeds*

I agree with the sentiment that Islam is a blight, a sociological cancer that does NOTHING to improve the human condition. The world would be a better place without it.

 

[Aharami]

Originally posted by: Scribe

Originally posted by: hscorpio
I find it strange that so many people downplay the role of religion in the current situation most muslims are in.
I might be wrong but weren't the muslims/middle easterners a more advanced society than europe at one point? The europeans advanced, had a renaissance and thrived, despite their religion which often stood in the way of progress. We know that terrible things were committed in the name of christianity like the inquisition, but europe changed, christianity changed and went through reformations and became more civilized.

But why hasn't Islam changed with the times? Thats why I think so many muslims are in such a bad situation. It is a combination of their religion and socio-economic factors. Part of the Islamic faith is that it is the one true and perfect religion. The koran is perfect and cannot be changed or interpreted differently. Questions can't be asked, its perfect, accept it or die. And so they stay chained down by an outdated religion. Today muslims see the west and all the freedom and success and they want that too. But then they know their religion forbids much of the western way of life and feel cheated and angry that they are living so poorly. Thats why I think they hate the west so much, it makes them have an identity crisis and doubt what is undoutable. Add in a severe education vacuum and you have a terrorist breeding ground.

Also Islam seems to be more predisposed to violance than modern christianity. Compare Mohamad to Jesus. Jesus was all about turn the other cheek, pray for your enemies, etc. Mohamad prefered to kill his enemies . Look at the Salman Rusdie thing from 89. Can you imagine the pope ordering a worldwide hit be placed on monty python for making fun of christianity. Practically the whole islamic world supported murdering Rushdie for writing a book.

Ahh thats enough opinionated ranting from this no0b

Yes, I completely agree with most of what you have to say. Having grown up Muslim (and then abandoned that religion and religion as a whole entirely) I know first hand what you're talking about, however there are a few caveats.

I wish it was the case that Muslims would 'get with the times' but unfortunately the clerics wield more power than the government in most countries. There's good reason for this though -- they can promise people food, housing, education -- all things that the governments cannot. So to go this route is the more popular one for most people in these countries and as a result, we have generation upon generation of those who hate the US and its allies.

The Muslim countries of the world, by in large, are very oil-rich countries. Now the imperial powers of Britain, France and the US (to a lesser extent) felt it would be in their best interest to 'back' leaders to be dictators and thus, undercut the price of oil for them. This is why the CIA overthrew a democratically elected official from Iran and reinstalled the Shah, a brutal dictator who was a crazy lunatic wielding religion as a weapon both offensive and defensively. People believed him too -- where else were they going to get proof? The internet wasn't around to prove the Shah wrong, and there was no independant media, so there are generations of people that believe what the Shah had to say, and also when the Shah said "im gonna git u sucka" to Salman Rushdie, then all of Iran was with him on that.

Saudi Arabia's another country like that. Did you know in the Quran that a monarchy is EXPRESSLY forbidden? Yet the Saudi Royal Family has been running a 'religious' police that beats people in public (and worse) for not following the religion, while the Saudis run to Turkey to get hookers and booze, and also have made the Guiness Book of World Records for the most money lost EVER in gambling. And the US supports them wholeheartedly, without question, so the Saudi people hate us for it. They are being repressed by an illigitmate regime backed by the US, and that's what Osama capitalized on -- fighting the enemies of the Saudis including the Saudis themselves.

Saddam is another guy we gave TONS of money to, in order to secure oil contract. It's easy for President Bush to say that he committed all kinds of atrocities against people (which is 100% true) while ignoring the fact that we gave him the weapons to do it with, to fight Iran. He just happened to save some weapons and used them to gas and kill the opposing faction of Kurds in the north that wouldn't accept his rule and now have cabinet posts and all kinds of goodies in the new Iraqi Congress.

And we think that nobody's gonna get pissed off cuz of this? While it's not entirely the case that the US is their only enemy, it's not like the US is any friend of the Muslim people of these countries. And that's where some of this stems from.

Now the rest of being that fvcking crazy well -- I don't know, and I don't want to know. I just don't want to see it any more, because taking children hostage in a school is more fvcked up than I can even think about. In fact... I'm gonna stop here, because I'm hungry and I don't want to upset my stomach.

Ciao.

i knew US was behind all the hate (for the most part)...but didnt know the details. good post man!

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Scribe


I wish it was the case that Muslims would 'get with the times' but unfortunately the clerics wield more power than the government in most countries. There's good reason for this though -- they can promise people food, housing, education -- all things that the governments cannot. So to go this route is the more popular one for most people in these countries and as a result, we have generation upon generation of those who hate the US and its allies.

The Muslim countries of the world, by in large, are very oil-rich countries. Now the imperial powers of Britain, France and the US (to a lesser extent) felt it would be in their best interest to 'back' leaders to be dictators and thus, undercut the price of oil for them. This is why the CIA overthrew a democratically elected official from Iran and reinstalled the Shah, a brutal dictator who was a crazy lunatic wielding religion as a weapon both offensive and defensively. People believed him too -- where else were they going to get proof? The internet wasn't around to prove the Shah wrong, and there was no independant media, so there are generations of people that believe what the Shah had to say, and also when the Shah said "im gonna git u sucka" to Salman Rushdie, then all of Iran was with him on that.

What do you mean by prove the shah(same person as Ayatollah Khomeini?) wrong? Wrong, in that the books author didn't deserve a death sentence, or in that Islam was just plain wrong? To me the worst part is that it seems that Islam actually does call for the killing of anyone who belittles the prophet or is an apostate. True that the people of Iran didn't have easy access to information contradicting Islam, but what about the millions of muslims living in the west like the US,UK, etc that supported killing Rushdie. Surely they had the tools and freedom available to reject this but most didn't, and some chose to bomb bookstores instead. The one prominent muslim who did(Imam Abdullah Ahdal) got killed in Belgium for going against the Ayatollah. I know there were probably a lot of muslims who knew that whole situation was terribly wrong, but they were chained down by their religion from saying so. This is why Islam needs a serious reformation, where violence is abanndoned and they just focus on the peaceful parts of the quran. It is really the only way they can coexist in the globalized world.

Saudi Arabia's another country like that. Did you know in the Quran that a monarchy is EXPRESSLY forbidden? Yet the Saudi Royal Family has been running a 'religious' police that beats people in public (and worse) for not following the religion, while the Saudis run to Turkey to get hookers and booze, and also have made the Guiness Book of World Records for the most money lost EVER in gambling. And the US supports them wholeheartedly, without question, so the Saudi people hate us for it. They are being repressed by an illigitmate regime backed by the US, and that's what Osama capitalized on -- fighting the enemies of the Saudis including the Saudis themselves.

I can understand muslims blaming all their problems on the US since it is so easy, but how much better off would they be without the saudis? What if osama succeded in overthrowing the saudis. He would set up the same kind of oppressive system. Any system based on Islamic law is in its very nature oppressive. At least the Saudi's corruption shows that they don't actually believe all the Islamic law, which to me is a good thing since maybe then they will keep it in check.

Now the rest of being that fvcking crazy well -- I don't know, and I don't want to know. I just don't want to see it any more, because taking children hostage in a school is more fvcked up than I can even think about. In fact... I'm gonna stop here, because I'm hungry and I don't want to upset my stomach.

Ciao.

agreed. This whole situation is beyond fvcked up.

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: Aharami

Originally posted by: Scribe

Originally posted by: hscorpio
I find it strange that so many people downplay the role of religion in the current situation most muslims are in.
I might be wrong but weren't the muslims/middle easterners a more advanced society than europe at one point? The europeans advanced, had a renaissance and thrived, despite their religion which often stood in the way of progress. We know that terrible things were committed in the name of christianity like the inquisition, but europe changed, christianity changed and went through reformations and became more civilized.

But why hasn't Islam changed with the times? Thats why I think so many muslims are in such a bad situation. It is a combination of their religion and socio-economic factors. Part of the Islamic faith is that it is the one true and perfect religion. The koran is perfect and cannot be changed or interpreted differently. Questions can't be asked, its perfect, accept it or die. And so they stay chained down by an outdated religion. Today muslims see the west and all the freedom and success and they want that too. But then they know their religion forbids much of the western way of life and feel cheated and angry that they are living so poorly. Thats why I think they hate the west so much, it makes them have an identity crisis and doubt what is undoutable. Add in a severe education vacuum and you have a terrorist breeding ground.

Also Islam seems to be more predisposed to violance than modern christianity. Compare Mohamad to Jesus. Jesus was all about turn the other cheek, pray for your enemies, etc. Mohamad prefered to kill his enemies . Look at the Salman Rusdie thing from 89. Can you imagine the pope ordering a worldwide hit be placed on monty python for making fun of christianity. Practically the whole islamic world supported murdering Rushdie for writing a book.

Ahh thats enough opinionated ranting from this no0b

Yes, I completely agree with most of what you have to say. Having grown up Muslim (and then abandoned that religion and religion as a whole entirely) I know first hand what you're talking about, however there are a few caveats.

I wish it was the case that Muslims would 'get with the times' but unfortunately the clerics wield more power than the government in most countries. There's good reason for this though -- they can promise people food, housing, education -- all things that the governments cannot. So to go this route is the more popular one for most people in these countries and as a result, we have generation upon generation of those who hate the US and its allies.

The Muslim countries of the world, by in large, are very oil-rich countries. Now the imperial powers of Britain, France and the US (to a lesser extent) felt it would be in their best interest to 'back' leaders to be dictators and thus, undercut the price of oil for them. This is why the CIA overthrew a democratically elected official from Iran and reinstalled the Shah, a brutal dictator who was a crazy lunatic wielding religion as a weapon both offensive and defensively. People believed him too -- where else were they going to get proof? The internet wasn't around to prove the Shah wrong, and there was no independant media, so there are generations of people that believe what the Shah had to say, and also when the Shah said "im gonna git u sucka" to Salman Rushdie, then all of Iran was with him on that.

Saudi Arabia's another country like that. Did you know in the Quran that a monarchy is EXPRESSLY forbidden? Yet the Saudi Royal Family has been running a 'religious' police that beats people in public (and worse) for not following the religion, while the Saudis run to Turkey to get hookers and booze, and also have made the Guiness Book of World Records for the most money lost EVER in gambling. And the US supports them wholeheartedly, without question, so the Saudi people hate us for it. They are being repressed by an illigitmate regime backed by the US, and that's what Osama capitalized on -- fighting the enemies of the Saudis including the Saudis themselves.

Saddam is another guy we gave TONS of money to, in order to secure oil contract. It's easy for President Bush to say that he committed all kinds of atrocities against people (which is 100% true) while ignoring the fact that we gave him the weapons to do it with, to fight Iran. He just happened to save some weapons and used them to gas and kill the opposing faction of Kurds in the north that wouldn't accept his rule and now have cabinet posts and all kinds of goodies in the new Iraqi Congress.

And we think that nobody's gonna get pissed off cuz of this? While it's not entirely the case that the US is their only enemy, it's not like the US is any friend of the Muslim people of these countries. And that's where some of this stems from.

Now the rest of being that fvcking crazy well -- I don't know, and I don't want to know. I just don't want to see it any more, because taking children hostage in a school is more fvcked up than I can even think about. In fact... I'm gonna stop here, because I'm hungry and I don't want to upset my stomach.

Ciao.

i knew US was behind all the hate (for the most part)...but didnt know the details. good post man!

Of course we were (for the most part). :roll: The UK was not involved in this little Iranian story at all.

Mohammed Mossadegh

Mohammad Reza Pahlavi

Once again the story did not take place in a vacuum and there were a lot of players and events.

 

[Shockwave]

I'll tell you how I look at it Scribe.
This isnt an isolated incident of "A few terrorists" planning attacks. This is in essence a Holy War with every Muslim a participant. They turn over their mosques to be used as a base of attacks. They stand idly by on the side while the terrorists plan their attacks, and publicly say nothing. The very core of Islam is simple. Convert or die. There are thos Muslims who will fight with the sword, and those who will fight with the word. In the end there will be only one outcome. You convert or you die. Muslims as a whole, as a group of people, are doing NOTHING to stop the terrorists. They wont even publically denounce those who do strike with bombs and take hostages. The religion is an insidious poison which threatens our very way of life. And we would do nothing!! They attacked 2 of our most prominent landmarks, killed thousands of innocent civilians and what do we as a people do? We hold anti war rallies!! Thats the very epitome of unpatriotic. Islamic fundamentalists kill Americans on our own soil and we march to the Capital saying essentially "Do nothing!" What kind of message does this send?! The message that as a people we will not unite and stand against this threat!! We demand NOTHING of those "peaceful" Muslims, not even asking them to denounce those who planned the attacks!!
Some like to see the issue as muddy and fuzzy. Some like to believe theres many sides. In my mind, it is not. In my mind it is simple. We are standing at the brink of a new world order. And it is the Islamic religion. They believe one thing. Convert or die. To that end, they will do whatever they must, be it convert those who question their own faith, or destroy those who will not convert. The issue is clear in my mind. The line is in the sand. You are either on this side or that side. And if you are Muslim and sit idly by and do not help bring the terrorists to justice, if you are Muslim and cannot even stand up and denounce your own kind for their actions..... Then where you stand is very clear to me.
I hope, I pray that one day in the future I can look back and stand up and say i was wrong. This is what i WANT. I dont WANT wars and killing. But, I'll also tell you this. Modern Multiculturalists can kiss my ass if they think I'll join hands and sing kumbayah with the murderous death cult that is Islam.

Anyways, see sig....

Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset

 

[faenix]

Originally posted by: Shockwave
Any religion that preaches the death and destruction of others is bad in my opinion. Muslims, as a group, are the biggest threat facing civilized nations today. Theres only one way to it as I see it. And the OP said it best. "level the whole goddamn territory. Tanks, blackjack bombers, incindiary shells...the whole nine yards. Destroy homes, mosques, the whole fscking territory."

For the first time I agree with Shockwave wholeheartedly.

 

[Shockwave]

Originally posted by: faenix

Originally posted by: Shockwave
Any religion that preaches the death and destruction of others is bad in my opinion. Muslims, as a group, are the biggest threat facing civilized nations today. Theres only one way to it as I see it. And the OP said it best. "level the whole goddamn territory. Tanks, blackjack bombers, incindiary shells...the whole nine yards. Destroy homes, mosques, the whole fscking territory."

For the first time I agree with Shockwave wholeheartedly.

Wow, I'm kinda honored in a way.... Its a rare sight to see that posted!! :Q

 

[faenix]

I'm not going to post anything radical because I'd rather not take a vacation.

But I first-handedly experienced 9/11. My high school was 9 blocks away from the World Trade Center Towers, and I can still remember everything vividly.

Ever since then, I've held a grudge.

Enough ranting.

I hope this Chechnyan Hostage Crisis gets resolved.. Poor children.

 

[Shockwave]

Originally posted by: faenix
I'm not going to post anything radical because I'd rather not take a vacation.

But I first-handedly experienced 9/11. My high school was 9 blocks away from the World Trade Center Towers, and I can still remember everything vividly.

Ever since then, I've held a grudge.

Enough ranting.

I hope this Chechnyan Hostage Crisis gets resolved.. Poor children.

I agree, I dont WANT a vacation either.
Unfortunately, I'm not one to compromise my morals in the name of keeping the peace. Which has gotten me in trouble on more then 1 occasion.

For those interested, heres a very good read
Text
You do have to sidestep some of the "Vote Bush" parts, but on the whole... A real eye opener....

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Argo

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: Argo
It has nothing to do with religion but rather with poverty levels. A lot of the same sh*t goes on in africa, it just doesn't get as much attention from media because they're killing other africans, rather than white people. Sorry, had to say that.

I don't see welfare moms binding together to take out nurseries in the States. I don't see gangbangers in Watts holding schoolbuses as hostages.

It's not about fvcking poverty level, it's about being inherently evil and not respecting the value of human life.

Trust me, your welfare moms aren't even 10th as poor as some of the people in developing countries. Being poor is when you can't afford to buy dinner for you and 5 of your kids. It's when your 5 year old has to work to provide food for himself. We are spoiled here - we got homeless shelters, charities, welfare programs that take care of the poor. It's nothing close to what some of the developing countries have to go through.

And btw, just to prove my point that it's poverty rather than religion - how many terrorists are from rich arab countries? Like UAE, Kuwait or Qatar? Notice, how most of them are from Palestine, Iraq, etc.

Or the 19 from saudi arabia, *waves to your idea going out the window*

 

[imported_hscorpio]

LINKY

Good info about the whole Rusdie fiasco. Christians wont appreciate the source though , but read it anyway.

I've been fascinated with Islam since 9/11 ( I'm fascinated with christianity too). I found myself asking how could such a religion that drives people to do such insane things exist today. The media left me feeling very skeptical and I could smell the PC BS in all the news specials about Islam. They still do it, even the president. They say its a peaceful and honorable religion has been "hijacked" by a small fundamentalists group. Why wont they show its underbelly, why is everyone afraid to say it? Anyone who stands back and looks at the situation should be able to see what the root of the problem is. And no its not the US's greed for oil! That only escalates the problem but isn't even close to the root.

Part of the problem is that most americans don't know much about Islam. For Christians the easy thing to do is to either follow the media/prez line that its a good religion thats been hijacked by a minority, or simply dismiss it as evil. The Christians that will attack Islam usually go after Mohamad as a pedophile or some other attack on Mohamad. I think a lot of Christians can't or wont truly look at and criticize Islam. Why, because most christians suppress those thoughts, logic and reasoning in order to mantain their own faith in God [edit** not necessarily their faith in God but more like their religion itself] . Uh oh I better stop now.

I just don't think its right to say lets kill'em all, their evil etc. We need a better solution, but first we need to be honest about what the problem is. Sadly it looks like much more blood will be shed before the leaders of the west admit what the problem is and the leaders of Islam rectify it.

Good info about islam here

I find the best source for information about Islam is from those that were muslims but have abandoned their faith.

 

[user1234]

the kidnappers are a bunch of crazy sons o'beaches

 

[Czar]

suicide bombers?