Chevy Volt Pricing and Value

[Doppel]

What?

GM really has something there...

I have seen reference to this on the Leaf forum. We all know that accelerating an ICE car to 60 slowly burns less fuel than when done very quickly, but apparently the energy loss driving an electric car aggressively is far more mild.

Although the Volt is more similar to a Cruze than dissimilar, the driving characteristics are surely different. EV power trains are really very nice.

 

[LTC8K6]

The system probably just doesn't allow you to actually leadfoot it, because if you did, the battery would give up quickly.

Pop Mech lost 10% of the range "leadfooting" a Volt without the A/C on.

 

[Topweasel]

The system probably just doesn't allow you to actually leadfoot it, because if you did, the battery would give up quickly.

Pop Mech lost 10% of the range "leadfooting" a Volt without the A/C on.

Seems a bit higher than it should. But the point was more that you don't have to change your driving style very much to maintain good economy in the Volt as long as you are running on the electric engine. Which was the point of the OP.

 

[LTC8K6]

Seems a bit higher than it should. But the point was more that you don't have to change your driving style very much to maintain good economy in the Volt as long as you are running on the electric engine. Which was the point of the OP.

The OP is about the tax rebate...

The claim I was addressing was that the battery didn't discharge any faster with spirited driving. But it has to, of course.

There is likely a built in limit to how spirited you can get, to prevent you from quickly discharging the battery and forcing the use of the engine early and often.

I expect there will be tweaks out to let you use a lot more of the battery's capacity if you choose, and to unlock other things.

And my favorite tweak, which seems to bother people, a button you can push to recharge the battery with the engine if you want to, instead of having to plug in, and the ability to choose not to use the battery if you want.

I want to be able to arrive with a charged battery after a long trip.

 

[vi edit]

And my favorite tweak, which seems to bother people, a button you can push to recharge the battery with the engine if you want to, instead of having to plug in, and the ability to choose not to use the battery if you want. I want to be able to arrive with a charged battery after a long trip

I know the idea sounds silly, but it does make sense. I wonder how much gas the engine burns to recharge the battery if the car is sitting idle?

 

[SearchMaster]

FWIW, my sister-in-law has a Volt and loves it. She and her husband are big on eliminating dependence on foreign oil, so it's more about using less gas than saving money. They have a spreadsheet that shows when driving their Prius or the Volt makes more sense, but even on long trips the Volt is economical (she said they average ~40MPG when off battery). Most of her driving is back and forth to work, and she can do that cycle completely on battery. She fills her tank every 4-6 weeks I think.

It wouldn't make as much sense for me because so many of my trips are ~30 miles round trip and I'll make several of them a day so recharging would be difficult. I think the Volt is a great option, better than any of the other all-electric solutions, and at ~$25K net it's a real bargain.

 

[Topweasel]

The OP is about the tax rebate...

The claim I was addressing was that the battery didn't discharge any faster with spirited driving. But it has to, of course.

There is likely a built in limit to how spirited you can get, to prevent you from quickly discharging the battery and forcing the use of the engine early and often.

I expect there will be tweaks out to let you use a lot more of the battery's capacity if you choose, and to unlock other things.

And my favorite tweak, which seems to bother people, a button you can push to recharge the battery with the engine if you want to, instead of having to plug in, and the ability to choose not to use the battery if you want.

I want to be able to arrive with a charged battery after a long trip.

Actually it was about the deal itself and then split off into two. One part the economy and the ability to reach it, and one confusion by using unnecessary words when talking about taxes and the rebate.

I am not talking about spirited driving. I am not talking about driving fast. I am talking about pulling away at a light at a normal speed lets say at 30% throttle. It will have almost no measurable affect on range for an electric car. But it will kill your city #'s and will kill 3-4 HWY miles range each time yo do it. Acceleration doesn't have nearly the affect on range that it would in an eco box. Sure full throttle, super speed, with no effort to regenerate brake power, and so on will kill the battery quicker.

On top of all of that. Even if you considered it "leadfooting" and lost the 10%, meaning 4 miles. As long as your within 36 miles the difference is $.01 or less in electricty. Over 365 Days that is $3.65. Losing 10% on an eco box at 4 MPG in a best case scenario (much worse for city), would be about $100 over the course of the year.

 

[iGas]

I agree.

Are there a lot of people that have a Federal tax bill of $7500 here.

That was the point that I was hoping to enhance.

It is a credit against taxes; not a refund.

A $5000 tax bill will not give you $2500 back.

For some it would be a good deal just to get on the HOV lane, and I'm sure most people here make close to $55,630 or more per annum ($7500 US federal tax).

 

[LTC8K6]

Actually it was about the deal itself and then split off into two. One part the economy and the ability to reach it, and one confusion by using unnecessary words when talking about taxes and the rebate.

I am not talking about spirited driving. I am not talking about driving fast. I am talking about pulling away at a light at a normal speed lets say at 30% throttle. It will have almost no measurable affect on range for an electric car. But it will kill your city #'s and will kill 3-4 HWY miles range each time yo do it. Acceleration doesn't have nearly the affect on range that it would in an eco box. Sure full throttle, super speed, with no effort to regenerate brake power, and so on will kill the battery quicker.

On top of all of that. Even if you considered it "leadfooting" and lost the 10%, meaning 4 miles. As long as your within 36 miles the difference is $.01 or less in electricty. Over 365 Days that is $3.65. Losing 10% on an eco box at 4 MPG in a best case scenario (much worse for city), would be about $100 over the course of the year.

There is only one OP as far as I know. The Original Post.

Now OP could mean Original Poster, but context is the key.

Electric cars lose battery charge much faster when driven hard. There is no doubt about that.

This is slightly different for hybrids because they have small batteries with hard limits on battery capacity use, and are rigidly restricting that use, and they have an alternate method of propulsion.

The Volt is primarily gasoline generator driven, and is fairly unique as far as it's battery management and use. It can afford to be set up the way it is. It pretty much has to be limiting how hard it can be driven on the battery, imo.

 

[sgrinavi]

FWIW, my sister-in-law has a Volt and loves it. She and her husband are big on eliminating dependence on foreign oil, so it's more about using less gas than saving money.....

We're going to be energy independent sooner than later with or without the administration wasting tax dollars pushing their pals agendas. Capitalism rocks.

 

[desy]

The US is unlikely to ever be energy independent? Unless there is a major shift away from liquid fuels

 

[Topweasel]

There is only one OP as far as I know. The Original Post.

Now OP could mean Original Poster, but context is the key.

Electric cars lose battery charge much faster when driven hard. There is no doubt about that.

This is slightly different for hybrids because they have small batteries with hard limits on battery capacity use, and are rigidly restricting that use, and they have an alternate method of propulsion.

The Volt is primarily gasoline generator driven, and is fairly unique as far as it's battery management and use. It can afford to be set up the way it is. It pretty much has to be limiting how hard it can be driven on the battery, imo.

Not true, Electric cars lose battery when faster when driven faster. They generate full torque right away so actual acceleration has a much smaller affect on power usage. Now for most of them they also do regenerative braking, this is where driving hard kills it, because it means breaking late and for a very short time. You lose possible power savings from that. But I am not talking about nor have I really ever tried to describe hard driving and I think your being difficult to be difficult. My point was that when driven normally an eco car vs a hybrid like the volt the eco box will see a more dramatic. Like I mentioned just a normal acceleration from a light at 30% throttle. That wouldn't have any affect on the 40 mile rating. That would hurt the Cruze Eco's range measurably. But regardless a wasted mile in electric is $0.002 for the Cruze is nearly 10 cents. That is 50x more expensive to drive as a normal car and not being worried about hypermiling to keep MPG up.

The Volt isn't primarily gas driven. The design around the Volt and Ford's Energi lines are about being electric first. You design it around a standard daily driving distance, then add the gas engine for flexibility. In the end people buying the Volt aren't regularly going on 100 mile commutes. They would only buy it if 40 miles both ways covered them 90% of the time. That is the market for the Volt. That is who GM is targeting. Or 80 miles if their works has charging stations.

And OP mean original post for the most part. He still had two questions the Deal of it and whether his math was right. It then developed into the math of economy and value, and the other half what it took for the rebate.

 

[sgrinavi]

The US is unlikely to ever be energy independent? Unless there is a major shift away from liquid fuels

Fracking + a drop in fuel use, but that drop is going impacted more by fuel efficient vehicles than it is by battery operated vehicles. Besides, even the tree huggers are starting to admit that, currently, the total impact on the environment can be higher from electric cars than gas powered cars.

Once alternative powered vehicles become profitable, without wasting tax dollars, they will be sold by the millions all over the planet, but shoving them down the consumers throat no workie.

 

[LTC8K6]

Not true, Electric cars lose battery when faster when driven faster. They generate full torque right away so actual acceleration has a much smaller affect on power usage. Now for most of them they also do regenerative braking, this is where driving hard kills it, because it means breaking late and for a very short time. You lose possible power savings from that. But I am not talking about nor have I really ever tried to describe hard driving and I think your being difficult to be difficult. My point was that when driven normally an eco car vs a hybrid like the volt the eco box will see a more dramatic. Like I mentioned just a normal acceleration from a light at 30% throttle. That wouldn't have any affect on the 40 mile rating. That would hurt the Cruze Eco's range measurably. But regardless a wasted mile in electric is $0.002 for the Cruze is nearly 10 cents. That is 50x more expensive to drive as a normal car and not being worried about hypermiling to keep MPG up.

The Volt isn't primarily gas driven. The design around the Volt and Ford's Energi lines are about being electric first. You design it around a standard daily driving distance, then add the gas engine for flexibility. In the end people buying the Volt aren't regularly going on 100 mile commutes. They would only buy it if 40 miles both ways covered them 90% of the time. That is the market for the Volt. That is who GM is targeting. Or 80 miles if their works has charging stations.

And OP mean original post for the most part. He still had two questions the Deal of it and whether his math was right. It then developed into the math of economy and value, and the other half what it took for the rebate.

Marketing terms are just that.

Nobody except you was talking about driving normally and battery life, imo.

You are wrong about driving hard in an electric car and about the Volt's primary source of power, imo.

But it's a free country.

 

[RU482]

Hell yeah. Just looked and last year was $27,000 federal.

Just imagine if you went to Kent U

 

[phucheneh]

The deal with the acceleration is that there's essentially no 'power band.' It will take more energy to maintain a higher speed; that's a given. But it should take about the same amount of energy to accelerate to that speed regardless of the duty cycle of the electric motor. I assume the motor is PWM...so more throttle application simple means it's 'on' for a more constant amount of time. From a purely theoritical POV, I would see it as:

More throttle input means the motor uses more power per period of time, but the same amount of power to accelerate to a certain speed. It would seem like it may even be more efficient to accelerate as quickly as possible. But...

If you give it less throttle and accelerate more slowly, you will spend less time at your cruising speed, which means less air resistance is being fought per whatever distance you're driving.

If I try and think about it real hard it makes me go a little cross-eyed.

 

[LTC8K6]

C&D noted an immediate dropoff in performance for the 2009 Tesla roadster after the first 0-60 run. They attributed it to the motor getting hot. The car was never as quick as the first cold pass, apparently.

I can't seem to find any examples of multiple drag strip passes of an EV without a recharge. I am talking about overall driving hard though, not just stoplight drags.

The Tesla interactive range site is neat. You can see what a difference speed makes, but it doesn't go past 65mph, which is odd.

An electric car or a Volt would actually suit me perfectly since I have a 10 mile round trip to work.

 

[Topweasel]

Marketing terms are just that.

Nobody except you was talking about driving normally and battery life, imo.

You are wrong about driving hard in an electric car and about the Volt's primary source of power, imo.

But it's a free country.

I brought it up as a plus. It's easier to maintain competitive numbers on an electric car. An electric engine generates full torque instantaneously, so all electric engines accelerate with a more linear power draw compared to overall speed than a gas engine. Describe to me how I am wrong. I brought up the "comfortable" driving angle as a plus versus an econo box. Because even though you can attain great numbers it requires much more attention and consideration from the driver. That is a fact. Once again rather than say your wrong tell me why?

I never tried to debate "hard driving" and any time it was brought up I stated that the lost energy from hard driving is less expensive. Also Why do you think the primary source of power. Is it technical or are you basing it on some perceived value on range and it only goes so far on electricity. Because the Volt ICE doesn't even interface with the transmission. It just runs a generator to feed power the electric engine. Electricity is what moves the car at all times (or kinetic energy of a push or crash).

 

[LTC8K6]

Because the Volt ICE doesn't even interface with the transmission.

Yes, the ICE does provide propulsion power at times through the planetary gearset. It is actually more efficient at times that way. This was revealed a while ago. It was also covered in Car and Driver's review of a 2011 Volt. It is also noted in the Wiki article.

 

[Topweasel]

Yes, the ICE does provide propulsion power at times through the planetary gearset. It is actually more efficient at times that way. This was revealed a while ago. It was also covered in Car and Driver's review of a 2011 Volt. It is also noted in the Wiki article.

From there its internal combustion engine powers an electric generator to extend the vehicle's range if needed. Once the engine is running in this extended range mode, it may at times be linked mechanically (via a clutch) to assist the traction motor in propelling the car in order to improve energy efficiency. The Volt's regenerative braking also contributes to the on-board electricity generation.

Technically the Voltec drivetrain has three power converting elements:[60]

• Primary traction electric motor/generator, provides good acceleration for driving at lower speeds and regeneration for braking, its maximum output of 111 kW setting the maximum output of the whole system.
• Secondary electric motor/generator, assists the primary electric motor[61] or works as generator capable of producing 54 kW.
• Internal combustion engine of 63 kW power,[62] engaged when the batteries reach the predetermined threshold.

These units are connected via a planetary gear and electric clutches to provide power output for propulsion in four programmed operating modes:[60]

1. Single motor electric - The primary motor runs solely on battery power, maximum propulsion power is 111 kW.
2. Dual motor electric - At higher vehicle speeds the secondary motor engages over the planetary gear such that it reduces the speed of the primary motor. This facilitates higher efficiency and better mileage for the combined system, without increasing the maximum power.
3. Single motor extended - The battery reaches its minimum charge which triggers the combustion engine. The engine drives the secondary motor which now works as a generator, via the charging electronics, to keep the minimum battery charge level. The primary motor can still provide its 111 kW for short acceleration, albeit not sustained.
4. Dual motor extended - The electric motors are used again in dual configuration with increased efficiency at higher speeds. Additionally the gasoline engine contributes propulsion power via the planetary gear. While power is drained from the battery the amount is less than in mode 2 for the same propulsion power, thus extending the range.

The drivetrain platform permits the Volt to operate as a pure battery electric vehicle until its battery capacity has been depleted to a defined level, at which time it commences to operate as a series hybrid design where the gasoline engine drives the generator, which keeps the battery at minimum level charge and provides power to the electric motors. The full charge of the battery is replenished only by loading it on the electrical grid.
While in this series mode at higher speeds and loads, (typically above 30 miles per hour (48 km/h) at light to moderate loads) the gasoline engine can engage mechanically to the output from the transmission and assist both electric motors to drive the wheels, in which case the Volt operates as a power-split or series-parallel hybrid. After its all-electric range has been depleted, at speeds between 30 to 70 miles per hour (48 to 110 km/h), the Volt is programmed to select the most efficient drive mode, which improves performance and boosts high-speed efficiency by 10 to 15 percent.[16][63]
While operating modes are switched automatically the Volt allows the driver to choose from three drive modes: normal, sport and mountain. The mountain mode, which is expected to be required only under unusual power demand conditions, increases minimum battery state of charge (SOC) to around 45%, thus maintaining performance on steep and long grades. The driver will hear more engine noise here due to the higher rate of power generation required to maintain this mode.[63] The sport mode causes the engine to rev higher, and the response to the throttle pedal is quicker.[64] The Ampera has an additional option, the "City Mode" or "battery hold", which allows battery management to the needs of the driver, allowing to save the energy currently stored in the battery for use when traveling urban areas or restricted zones.[65][66] The 2013 model year Volt includes the "Hold Drive" button to provide the same choice.[67]

I can keeping posting other technical aspects but after reading that it's pretty clear that while the ICE can interface with transmission (oddly enough on the back end). That only the main Electronic engine powers propulsion all the time and only on one stage does the ICE even help out directly.

So How does the that make the ICE the main source of power for the system. Completely ignoring the fact that GM designed it around the idea of 90% of its driving will be done in the 40 miles all electric mode and that the main market would be people that could get to work and back on the initial charge.

 

[Reckoner]

I've had my black 2013 chevy volt for 3 months, and it's the best car I've ever had, hands down. And now that the warm weather is out, I've been hitting over 40 miles per charge on a regular basis. I decided to lease this go around since I figure the next gen volt will be a nice leap. I opted for the Safety 1 package (rear view cam and park assist), leather wrapped wheel, and heated seats. Currently paying $286 a month. I haven't filled up since I took possession of the car. The Voltec drivetrain truly is revolutionary.

 

[LTC8K6]

I can keeping posting other technical aspects but after reading that it's pretty clear that while the ICE can interface with transmission (oddly enough on the back end). That only the main Electronic engine powers propulsion all the time and only on one stage does the ICE even help out directly.

So How does the that make the ICE the main source of power for the system. Completely ignoring the fact that GM designed it around the idea of 90% of its driving will be done in the 40 miles all electric mode and that the main market would be people that could get to work and back on the initial charge.

The ICE makes the electricity using gasoline via a generator. This accounts for most of the Volt's driving range. Without that, the Volt is crippled. I thought that was obvious.

Without the range anxiety removing ICE, the Volt would sell much less than it's already low sales, I would think.

The Volt is an E-REV, not an EV. The E-R is from gasoline.

No one is saying the Volt is a bad car. I would consider buying one if it made economic sense to me.

And if they get any closer to a clearance sale, I just might.

 

[jagec]

The ICE makes the electricity using gasoline via a generator. This accounts for most of the Volt's driving range. Without that, the Volt is crippled. I thought that was obvious.

That's for peace of mind and so that you don't have to buy a second car for weekend trips. If you're buying a Volt and NOT intending to use it mostly for EV-only short commuting trips, you're doing it wrong. It's capable of long-distance trips, but that's not its strength.

Just because I have "Mud and Snow" rated tires on the Civic, doesn't make it an off-roader...it just means that I don't have to panic when it starts snowing and I'm still at work. If I find myself primarily driving in muddy or snowy conditions, I should probably get another car.