CHHCaptain(380X?) power Preview

[RussianSensation]

NV have extracted the most they can out of the 28nm node. If the leaked chiphell benchmarks are an indication of R9 380X with 3072 sp then Nvidia has nothing to beat the R9 380X when it launches in notebooks.

...
Sorry but I think it all boils down to R9 390X vs GM200 and R9 380X vs GM204.

There is no proof at all that the leaked benches from ChipHell are for 380X instead of 390 or 390X. How do you know they related to the 3072 SP card only?

Also, I don't agree that NV maxed out GM204. First of all the GM204 version in the 980M is neutered. It has 1536 CUDA cores and 160GB/sec memory bandwidth. Look at 680MX/780M/880M; NV raised performance nearly 30% on the same GK204 chip. NV has 2 tricks up its sleeve with GM204 -- release a version with more CUDA cores than 1536 as GM204 goes up to 2048 and/or bump clock speeds even more. Do you honestly believe NV released the maxed out GM204 version for laptops without leaving some headroom for a 15-20% faster version 2 down the line? Without competition from AMD in the mobile sector NV had no need to max out the 980M right now.

It's not going to be enough for AMD's R9 300 series to match 970M/980M in the mobile sector because NV can simply lower the price on the 980M and make it 975M/1070M and release a faster clocked/CUDA core unlocked 985M/1080M. Then what? AMD needs to either seriously undercut 970M/980M on price or offer more performance. Also, as you know on notebookcheck forums, most gamers prefer NV-based mobile solutions so there is a brand loyalty issue too.

AMD didnt have an fuzfree alternative to optimus until recently. Now they dont have the perf/watt compettitivenes. Besides NV sale and support with the OEM is probably far better. There is much more to it than card performance metrics. And yeaa even if 390m performs its probably a h2 thing even for the few where the upgrade cycle fits.

Exactly. In the mobile sector most perceive Optimus > Enduro and NV has Battery Boost 2.0. AMD will need to bring more features, more performance and good pricing and show that Enduro has improved significantly. It's not enough anymore in the mobile dGPU sector to just have good performance. When someone buys a $1500-2500 laptop, they are looking for more than just 10-15% more fps.

 

[raghu78]

There is no proof at all that the leaked benches from ChipHell are for 380X instead of 390 or 390X. How do you know they related to the 3072 SP card only?

I cannot say for sure. But I am willing to believe that given the low TDP its not R9 390X/R9 390. There is still a chance that all of that leaked performance charts is completely false. So yeah we need to wait and watch.

Also, I don't agree that NV maxed out GM204. First of all the GM204 version in the 980M is neutered. It has 1536 CUDA cores and 160GB/sec memory bandwidth. Look at 680MX/780M/880M; NV raised performance nearly 30% on the same GK204 chip. NV has 2 tricks up its sleeve with GM204 -- release a version with more CUDA cores than 1536 as GM204 goes up to 2048 and/or bump clock speeds even more. Do you honestly believe NV released the maxed out GM204 version for laptops without leaving some headroom for a 15-20% faster version 2 down the line? Without competition from AMD in the mobile sector NV had no need to max out the 980M right now.

It's not going to be enough for AMD's R9 300 series to match 970M/980M in the mobile sector because NV can simply lower the price on the 980M and make it 975M/1070M and release a faster clocked/CUDA core unlocked 985M/1080M. Then what? AMD needs to either seriously undercut 970M/980M on price or offer more performance. Also, as you know on notebookcheck forums, most gamers prefer NV-based mobile solutions so there is a brand loyalty issue too.

dude I said if desktop R9 380X beats GTX 980 according to those leaked charts it doesn't matter. a full GTX980M will still lose to a R9 380X even in its scaled down notebook form. If you cannot see that logic I don't know what else to say. Whats even more appealing is a full R9 390X scaled down to the notebook form to fit the 100W TDP. If that happens I foresee a awesome 4k notebook gaming GPU powerhouse.

 

[RussianSensation]

I think 4K gaming on 13-15.6 inch laptops is pointless right now. It's like TV manufacturers pushing 4K on 50-60 inch TVs. Right now for an OK gaming experience you need 970SLI/290CF for 4K. How are you going to have that in a laptop? The Aorus X7 970SLI is the one of the few real laptops that comes close, but Optimus doesn't work on it. All those other "laptops" are just small form factor boxes with a screen attached to them .

AMD needs to improve Enduro to make it seamless and as an added bonus it should work with CF.

 

[tential]

4K Gaming laptop using a scaled down R9 390x AMD GPU?
At 100W TDP?

Is it April 1st already? That's extreme wishful thinking.
Why don't we get 4K Gaming to be steady on desktop first lol...

 

[DownTheSky]

Why would you need 4k gaming on 15" screen, it baffles me.

 

[raghu78]

I think 4K gaming on 13-15.6 inch laptops is pointless right now. It's like TV manufacturers pushing 4K on 50-60 inch TVs. Right now for an OK gaming experience you need 970SLI/290CF for 4K. How are you going to have that in a laptop? The Aorus X7 970SLI is the one of the few real laptops that comes close, but Optimus doesn't work on it. All those other "laptops" are just small form factor boxes with a screen attached to them .

AMD needs to improve Enduro to make it seamless and as an added bonus it should work with CF.

With just 37.5% shaders R9 290X was 35% faster than R9 280X. This was on the same architecture with slight modifications (GCN 1.1 vs GCN 1.0).

http://www.computerbase.de/2013-10/amd-radeon-r9-290x-test/5/#diagramm-rating-2560-1600-4xaa-16xaf

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...s/63742-amd-radeon-r9-290x-4gb-review-18.html

With 45% more shaders, a much more significantly improved GCN architecture (over and above the GCN 1.2 Tonga enhancements) and a brand new HBM system with massive bandwidth and improved bandwidth efficiency (as seen in Tonga) I am beginning to think that the rumours of R9 390X getting close to R9 290X CF (when considered as an avg across many games) is not far fetched. If you look at the chiphell chart the R9 290X CF is 70% faster than R9 290X. Already we can see the R9 380X at 30% faster than R9 290X. Assuming this is a 3072 sp SKU AMD can gain another 25 - 30% from the fully enabled 4096 flagship SKU (from 33% more shaders). That puts R9 390X perf at 82 - 85.6 on the chart. This is right inline with R9 290X CF. Even accounting for lower core and memory clocks the R9 390X chip in a notebook will be a 4k powerhouse even as a single GPU. Add to it CF configs and it becomes a mouth watering prospect.

as for screen resolutions people are buying phones and tablets with 3 - 4 million pixels. So definitely 4k on a 15 - 17 inch gaming notebook makes a lot more sense than the millions of users who have insane resolutions on their mobile devices.

Already we have seen 4k in a few laptops. 2015 could finally bring the trinity of factors which finally delivers 4k gaming to masses - Powerful GPUs like R9 390X, Freesync and affordable 4k monitors (both desktops and notebooks) with Freesync.

http://www.engadget.com/2014/04/15/toshibas-first-4k-laptop-arrives-next-week-for-1-500/

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2453340/lenovo-ships-first-4k-laptop-challenging-toshiba.html

http://venturebeat.com/2014/11/03/acer-unveils-its-first-4k-laptop-available-this-month-for-1500/

https://www.cyberpowerpc.com/system/Fangbook_Edge_4K_Gaming_Laptop

http://www.engadget.com/2014/06/03/asus-gx500-gaming-laptop-hands-on/

 

[raghu78]

4K Gaming laptop using a scaled down R9 390x AMD GPU?
At 100W TDP?

Is it April 1st already? That's extreme wishful thinking.
Why don't we get 4K Gaming to be steady on desktop first lol...

I have marked this post. Lets revisit it on April 1, 2015.

 

[tential]

I have marked this post. Lets revisit it on April 1, 2015.

I'm sure you'll be the first to quote mypost when 4K gaming is not available on a R9 390x mobile chip....
Or you'll move the goalpoasts considerably.

If 4K gaming is actually viable on a R9 390x at decent settings on desktop I'll be extremely happy. That means I can pick up the 2015 Vizio P Series Update 4K HDTVs. Oh I can't wait.

 

[RussianSensation]

1. High DPI on phones is mostly marketing. It's a lot easier to sell a 2K or 4K smartphone screen than "outdated" 1080P screen. This is similar to LCD/LED manufacturers touting 4K despite every 4K LCD/LED producing inferior IQ to a top of the line 1080P Pioneer KURO or Panasonic Plasma.

2. Even in rare cases where you will notice a slight advantage to higher DPI on a 5.5+ phablet smartphone, it's because we view smartphones much closer than laptops or desktop screens. I have perfect vision and 1080P on 15.6" Laptop is more than enough in Windows 8.1. Because Windows scaling doesn't work well like OSX, I have to zoom in web pages to 110-120% a lot of times. I can't imagine working on a 3K or 4K laptop doing anything other than watching movies/games. Until Windows improves high DPI scaling, this is a horrible compromise. However, since the choice is often a crappy TN panel vs. 3K IPS for $200 more, it's no wonder 3K/4K is becoming more popular in laptops. The screen itself is just better in every regard, regardless of the resolution increase.

3. Many gamers and reviewers also noted that it's much better to run a game maxed out with AA at 1080P/1440P than medium settings on 4K. In your scenario, even if a 390X = 290X CF, such a chip would use 250W+ of power. How is that a realistic target to project into a laptop gaming? You are also not accounting that 4K is basically impossible for FC4, AC Unity and DAI, but what about next gen games like Witcher 3, BF5, etc.? You might be able to play older games at 3K or 4K on a laptop but within 6 months it's done and you are forced to run non-native resolution with horrible IQ.

The main reason 3K and 4K laptop screens look great is because they are IPS vs. the junk TN that often goes into 90% of gaming laptops.

4. Just because something is popular, doesn't mean it makes sense. Sure on paper a 3K or 4K 15.6" laptop for just $200 over the 1080P one sounds amazing but in practice that's a huge increase in workload on the GPU with minimal actual benefits due to already excellent DPI on a 1080P screen. I think most gamers would pick a 1080P/1200P IPS/VA 15.6" laptop panel and play at 60 fps + than struggle at medium settings in 4K or play at non-native maxed out (blur!).

Upcoming UE4 games (Kholat) that don't work with CF/SLI and other next gen games like Kingdom Come Deliverance will be so demanding on the GPU at 4K, you'll prob need 2X the power of a single 980 in a single chip to play them well. 980M right now provides about 70-75% of the performance of a 980.

Realistically we are still 2 generations away from enjoyable 4K on a laptop unless you play Diablo 3 and WOW/SC2, etc.

 

[krumme]

Anyone think there is a chance this card could debut at or about $500 and by the end of Q1 2015?

Yes. Amd cant sell so many expensive cards as nv because of less brand value and secondly they have to respond to the 980. Therefore they have to price it lower. Late Q1 seems realistically eg. seen from rumours and shipped pcb. The performance estimate is consistent with info from other sources and cosistent with benefits from hbm.
But late q1 is a long wait.

 

[3DVagabond]

Anyone think there is a chance this card could debut at or about $500 and by the end of Q1 2015?

Yes. Amd cant sell so many expensive cards as nv because of less brand value and secondly they have to respond to the 980. Therefore they have to price it lower. Late Q1 seems realistically eg. seen from rumours and shipped pcb. The performance estimate is consistent with info from other sources and cosistent with benefits from hbm.
But late q1 is a long wait.

While it's true AMD has to sell like cards for less due to nVidia's branding, they don't have to sell a card that's 15% faster for less. I think with Su in charge you'll also see AMD improve their marketing and strategy. Their last two CEO's have been putzes. Especially Read. I really think Su will be a whole lot sharper.

That being said, it's not unlike AMD to come out with something to make a splash to try and rain on nVidia's parade. If the card that's rumored is indeed the 380X and not the 390X it could come out well below the current market. Possibly $380ish. That would smash nVidia's pricing again and force them to make drastic price reductions like Hawaii did.

I'm curious to see if Su is as sharp as I think she is. Something more along the line of the 295x2 level of engineering and refinement instead of 7970 (too low clocks w/ marginal cooler) and 290X (substandard cooler) type. Read really hurt those two products terribly. Anyway, time will tell.

 

[lopri]

Wouldn't this be 20 nm? I don't see AMD/NV launching top-performing parts @28 nm in 2015. 20 nm has been running full steam at TSMC and Samsung to keep up with iPhone demand. As a very rough reference, Apple managed to squeeze out 20~30% more perf/watt from the node shrink.

 

[lopri]

I hope AMD will address its 2D performance issues. I have a feeling though they will not be their priority. Ugh.

 

[3DVagabond]

Wouldn't this be 20 nm? I don't see AMD/NV launching top-performing parts @28 nm in 2015. 20 nm has been running full steam at TSMC and Samsung to keep up with iPhone demand. As a very rough reference, Apple managed to squeeze out 20~30% more perf/watt from the node shrink.

It might be 20nm. Although there was rumor about a >550mm² chip taping out a few months ago, so who knows?

 

[krumme]

It might be 20nm. Although there was rumor about a >550mm² chip taping out a few months ago, so who knows?

My guess Mubadala needs customers for their gf investment and amd will be forced to use gf. Now is the time and amd have no choice.
If anything is suited for a dense 28nm process its big gpu. And if soi should be more than just ultra niche this is a candidate too.
We havnt seen anything from gf in years. If they dont deliver 2015/2016 i think even mubadala will loose patience and amd will be decimated at the same time. There have been some heavy investments in a relatively new fab and normally that should mean results comming even if they stumbled earlier.

 

[beginner99]

My guess Mubadala needs customers for their gf investment and amd will be forced to use gf. Now is the time and amd have no choice.
If anything is suited for a dense 28nm process its big gpu. And if soi should be more than just ultra niche this is a candidate too.
We havnt seen anything from gf in years. If they dont deliver 2015/2016 i think even mubadala will loose patience and amd will be decimated at the same time. There have been some heavy investments in a relatively new fab and normally that should mean results comming even if they stumbled earlier.

Yeah. Even if such a huge die would not be economical feasible for the normal company, for AMD it's different. With a >550mm GPU AMD could use up tons of wafers from the WSA and hence save a ton on fines of not using them. Given the WSA a huge 28 nm die would probably be cheaper than anything 20 nm.

 

[Bubbleawsome]

The 550mm+ die rumor came from a fairly trustworthy source on these forums. I wouldn't doubt AMD having a big-die chip ready for the 1080/titianII/gm200 card that is on it's way.

 

[RussianSensation]

I hope AMD will address its 2D performance issues. I have a feeling though they will not be their priority. Ugh.

What is that? I've had 9700Pro/HD4890/6950/7970 and never had any 2D performance issues with ATI/AMD. Are you talking about when you watch YouTube with flash acceleration that the GPU clocks go above idle clocks?

 

[Bateluer]

Upcoming UE4 games (Kholat) that don't work with CF/SLI and other next gen games like Kingdom Come Deliverance will be so demanding on the GPU at 4K, you'll prob need 2X the power of a single 980 in a single chip to play them well. 980M right now provides about 70-75% of the performance of a 980.

Realistically we are still 2 generations away from enjoyable 4K on a laptop unless you play Diablo 3 and WOW/SC2, etc.

Using Kingdom Come Deliverance is a bad example. In their own update video #9, they flatly stated they hadn't optimized the game yet. The internal console version runs at 5fps, for example.

 

[RussianSensation]

Using Kingdom Come Deliverance is a bad example. In their own update video #9, they flatly stated they hadn't optimized the game yet. The internal console version runs at 5fps, for example.

Fair enough, didn't follow that game too closely as it's still ways off launch. But there are plenty of even recent games such as DAI, Unity, Crysis 3, Evil Within, FC4 that will be too much for a single 980 at 4K. Therefore, I find it hard to believe that we will sufficient power (i.e., 2x 970 SLI) in a single chip card from AMD in a laptop in 2015. Maybe 2017.

 

[SirPauly]

Sure, some titles maxed may be problematic at 4k but some may trade-off detail levels for added resolution.

 

[3DVagabond]

My guess Mubadala needs customers for their gf investment and amd will be forced to use gf. Now is the time and amd have no choice.
If anything is suited for a dense 28nm process its big gpu. And if soi should be more than just ultra niche this is a candidate too.
We havnt seen anything from gf in years. If they dont deliver 2015/2016 i think even mubadala will loose patience and amd will be decimated at the same time. There have been some heavy investments in a relatively new fab and normally that should mean results comming even if they stumbled earlier.

Why is AMD forced to buy from GloFo? I know they contract wafers, but they (and everyone else) contract the same way with TSMC, etc...

The 550mm+ die rumor came from a fairly trustworthy source on these forums. I wouldn't doubt AMD having a big-die chip ready for the 1080/titianII/gm200 card that is on it's way.

Actually, it came from a much more reliable source than anyone on these boards. There was a slide from the company (sorry the name escapes me ATM) that AMD uses to design their chips that claimed they had made one for a client. 2+2 makes it AMD.

 

[Rvenger]

What ever this chip is... notice the word "Simple" being used? May be a term for the Vanilla 390.

 

[tential]

Fair enough, didn't follow that game too closely as it's still ways off launch. But there are plenty of even recent games such as DAI, Unity, Crysis 3, Evil Within, FC4 that will be too much for a single 980 at 4K. Therefore, I find it hard to believe that we will sufficient power (i.e., 2x 970 SLI) in a single chip card from AMD in a laptop in 2015. Maybe 2017.

That sums it up better.
raghu78 is essentially claiming that an AMD single chip solution will game at 4K on a laptop in 2015 at GTX 970 SLI speeds...

I mean... I'm not saying I don't WISH it would happen? But it clearly won't. If it does happen, sign me up for Crossfire of the Desktop Card please....

 

[Porter_]

What ever this chip is... notice the word "Simple" being used? May be a term for the Vanilla 390.

or a typo of "Sample"