China doesnt have aircraft carriers?!

[Lemon law]

China is very slowly building up its naval power and can cherry pick the technologies of the future. And as that slow progression is likely to happen, sooner or later, all of the pacific Ocean East of Asia within 1,000 miles of the Chinese coast land is likely to become to become a Chinese lake. Especially if China invests in long range Jets and missile carrying fast destroyers.

What does China need with an air craft carrier when China and other nations who grant the Chinese basing rights become unsinkable air craft carriers in their own right.

On the other hand, the USA needs air craft carrier battle groups to project power from 4000 miles away. As only a very few remaining Asian nations will still grant the US Navy basing rights.

 

[DrPizza]

Well good for them. They've invented a very impractical and untested weapon that our military is already able to respond to. Hardly a "stupid Americans" moment.

Throughout this thread, you have maintained an attitude that the Chinese are no where close to the Americans. Meanwhile, in reality-land, China has far more graduates in master's and doctorate programs in Engineering, Science, and Mathematics than we do. Very soon, they'll have (if not already) the advantage in intellectual capital. They've got the advantage in manpower. And, they seem to have an advantage in surplus money burning a hole in their pocket.

I'm sure that when they announced they'd build the tallest skyscraper in the world in just 90 days that you just poo-pooed that announcement with something like, "yeah, well it's ugly" or "it'll fall over in a couple of years." That speaks of massive ignorance and ethnocentrism. (edit: hey, I was right! You said they were cheating for using modules.)

 

[lotus503]

Interesting that you asked, and what this thread is about. The Chinese invented the Anti-ship ballistic missile. I'd imagine the Chinese are thinking "stupid Americans." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ship_ballistic_missile

China has a ton of Russian sunburn missiles, so does Iran. They are nasty too.

 

[EXman]

so?

you americans fear a war with china?

No half of us Fear our leader Neville Chamberlain will not do shit if cannot be done with a drone.

 

[irishScott]

Throughout this thread, you have maintained an attitude that the Chinese are no where close to the Americans. Meanwhile, in reality-land, China has far more graduates in master's and doctorate programs in Engineering, Science, and Mathematics than we do. Very soon, they'll have (if not already) the advantage in intellectual capital. They've got the advantage in manpower. And, they seem to have an advantage in surplus money burning a hole in their pocket.

I'm sure that when they announced they'd build the tallest skyscraper in the world in just 90 days that you just poo-pooed that announcement with something like, "yeah, well it's ugly" or "it'll fall over in a couple of years." That speaks of massive ignorance and ethnocentrism.

Alright, where are the Chinese drones? Where are their F-22s? Where are their stealth bombers? Where are their vast stockpiles of smart munitions? The list goes on.

In terms of available military tech the Chinese are far behind the US.

And no I didn't poo poo it, I pointed out that it was a prefabricated structure and if you combined the manufacturing time on each module you come up with a far less impressive number. I also read the thread, where it was noted that they'd upped the number to 210 days. You want to talk ignorance? Stop re-stating over-hyped headlines.

As you point out, the Chinese are a future military threat. Not a present one. Their military technology lags behind the US in almost every area, and they are just now becoming "roughly equivalent" in some (ballistic missile subs for one).

 

[Jhhnn]

Americans don't fear war with anyone, I think that would be apparent by now.

Then why all the fearmongering of the last decade, and particularly from so-called "Conservatives"?

I think it's a mistake to denigrate & underestimate the technical & organizational expertise of China. While their military is no match for our own in terms of power projection, that's not the purpose of their military, anyway. If they want a blue water navy, they'll create one, although that will take time. They realize that the pen is mightier than the sword, so the way they project power is economically rather than militarily. In that war, if you want to call it one, they're scoring enormous victories, with Chinese goods penetrating every market in the world.

How do the view the US? What do they call us? Their capitalists call our capitalists "partners", so the likelihood of any military confrontation is very, very small.

 

[JEDIYoda]

China is very slowly building up its naval power and can cherry pick the technologies of the future. And as that slow progression is likely to happen, sooner or later, all of the pacific Ocean East of Asia within 1,000 miles of the Chinese coast land is likely to become to become a Chinese lake. Especially if China invests in long range Jets and missile carrying fast destroyers.

What does China need with an air craft carrier when China and other nations who grant the Chinese basing rights become unsinkable air craft carriers in their own right.

On the other hand, the USA needs air craft carrier battle groups to project power from 4000 miles away. As only a very few remaining Asian nations will still grant the US Navy basing rights.

I just love to read your version of what you think is or has been happening in the world..lolol

 

[StrangerGuy]

Then why all the fearmongering of the last decade, and particularly from so-called "Conservatives"?

I think it's a mistake to denigrate & underestimate the technical & organizational expertise of China. While their military is no match for our own in terms of power projection, that's not the purpose of their military, anyway. If they want a blue water navy, they'll create one, although that will take time. They realize that the pen is mightier than the sword, so the way they project power is economically rather than militarily. In that war, if you want to call it one, they're scoring enormous victories, with Chinese goods penetrating every market in the world.

How do the view the US? What do they call us? Their capitalists call our capitalists "partners", so the likelihood of any military confrontation is very, very small.

Why even bother with a strong offensive military when they know it's far cheaper, more profitable and less politically distasteful to bribe the third world with monetary benefits while having them buy China goods when none of those countries will ever have the societal underpinnings to even pose a threat to the unassailable China's manufacturing base.

 

[Lemon law]

I just love to read your version of what you think is or has been happening in the world..lolol

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As JediY only answer is to say lolo, when the test of longer range time will be the real arbitrator.

As JediY somehow thinks change will be one or two year immediate, when history always works on slower time scales.

One century ago the sun never set of the British empire, Apartheid South Africa was at its height of glory, French colonialism dominated South east Asia and Algeria, China was a basket case, and things have changed a wee bit since.

 

[OCGuy]

China is very slowly building up its naval power and can cherry pick the technologies of the future. And as that slow progression is likely to happen, sooner or later, all of the pacific Ocean East of Asia within 1,000 miles of the Chinese coast land is likely to become to become a Chinese lake. Especially if China invests in long range Jets and missile carrying fast destroyers.

What does China need with an air craft carrier when China and other nations who grant the Chinese basing rights become unsinkable air craft carriers in their own right.

On the other hand, the USA needs air craft carrier battle groups to project power from 4000 miles away. As only a very few remaining Asian nations will still grant the US Navy basing rights.

This can't be serious. We have as many Asian bases as we need, and could have more if we wanted (thankfully we don't).

We are "pivoting" the Asia-Pacific region, and our allies over there are begging for it.

We even have Vietnamese visting our aircraft carriers......my how things change.

 

[Nebor]

They realize that the pen is mightier than the sword, so the way they project power is economically rather than militarily. In that war, if you want to call it one, they're scoring enormous victories, with Chinese goods penetrating every market in the world.

How do the view the US? What do they call us? Their capitalists call our capitalists "partners", so the likelihood of any military confrontation is very, very small.

Exactly. While the US and Europe squanders our lives and fortunes in Afghanistan, China just pays a few bribes and walks away with everything of value in the country, without contributing any aid or any troops. China's foreign policy strikes me as much more straight forward and practical than our own. They don't pick sides, they just do what's best for China.

 

[StrangerGuy]

Exactly. While the US and Europe squanders our lives and fortunes in Afghanistan, China just pays a few bribes and walks away with everything of value in the country, without contributing any aid or any troops. China's foreign policy strikes me as much more straight forward and practical than our own. They don't pick sides, they just do what's best for China.

The West might not even be there and China will still get what they want from Backwardistan by cutting favorable deals but at the same time making it very clear they aren't handout-giving politically correct pussies like the West. Might even improve the lot for the Afghans since now they have to work to get what they need instead of waiting for free money.

 

[rommelrommel]

Throughout this thread, you have maintained an attitude that the Chinese are no where close to the Americans. Meanwhile, in reality-land, China has far more graduates in master's and doctorate programs in Engineering, Science, and Mathematics than we do. Very soon, they'll have (if not already) the advantage in intellectual capital. They've got the advantage in manpower. And, they seem to have an advantage in surplus money burning a hole in their pocket.

I'm sure that when they announced they'd build the tallest skyscraper in the world in just 90 days that you just poo-pooed that announcement with something like, "yeah, well it's ugly" or "it'll fall over in a couple of years." That speaks of massive ignorance and ethnocentrism. (edit: hey, I was right! You said they were cheating for using modules.)

Reasonable post, but a lot of those masters/doctorate programs are of questionable quality. I have a friend who was doing a law degree AND premed at the same time, and while he's about the most exceptional student I've ever personally met he freely admitted that the quality of education was relatively low. I'm not sure that they'll really get an advantage in intellectual capital as long as there is limited incentive to innovate (high likelihood someone will steal your idea, low social mobility for many people, etc.)

I respect China's ability and accomplishments but I think that the people that think the J20 is going to be on the F22's level are smoking as much crack as those that think China is unable to do anything technical. Even if they had managed to steal every last page of blueprint and manual for the F22 I don't think China could turn out a plane of that caliber as fast as people are predicting. Look how long refitting a Russian carrier WITH the plans has taken them. Around a decade down the road and it has just allegedly had a plane land on it.

 

[Karl Agathon]

This can't be serious. We have as many Asian bases as we need, and could have more if we wanted (thankfully we don't).

We are "pivoting" the Asia-Pacific region, and our allies over there are begging for it.

We even have Vietnamese visting our aircraft carriers......my how things change.

Indeed! The Viets now relize that Red China is becoming an ever increasing bully bellicose nation. They are now more then happy to have a US CBG in the region. its only a matter of time before they will let all US warships dock and base there in response to China's ever increasing belligerence. China is on course to becoming the 4th Reich within 50 or so years.

 

[dmcowen674]

Wolverines !!!

 

[DrPizza]

Reasonable post, but a lot of those masters/doctorate programs are of questionable quality. I have a friend who was doing a law degree AND premed at the same time, and while he's about the most exceptional student I've ever personally met he freely admitted that the quality of education was relatively low. I'm not sure that they'll really get an advantage in intellectual capital as long as there is limited incentive to innovate (high likelihood someone will steal your idea, low social mobility for man

A lot of those masters/doctorate programs are here in the US. Many stay, because there's no incentive to go back. But, if China creates incentives for them to return - spending money for people capable of the innovations, rather than building ghost cities, they may go back in droves.

Re: the low quality of their education? I had a Chinese student who came to the U.S. just a few years ago. I'd be working through a very difficult calculus problem with my students, and he'd say, "I think there's an easier way" and demonstrate the problem 2 different ways, using techniques my students had never seen before. They asked him, "when did you learn that?" "I think I was 12, maybe 13." My experience is that at least some Chinese had exceptional training in mathematics.

If you look at a lot of current research in math, physics, and engineering, you're not seeing names like "John Smith" - you're seeing a lot of Indian & Chinese sounding surnames. If you look at lists of top researchers at many companies, ditto.

 

[rommelrommel]

I'm not saying that their general education is poor, I think it's pretty accepted that up to the university level it's very advanced especially in math/science and I'm sure they have excellent higher level programs too, but I suspect that a good portion of them are just degree factories. Also, their education model does not encourage free thinkers so to speak.

 

[piasabird]

Aircraft carriers are gigantic targets.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Aircraft carriers are gigantic targets.

They are also well defended by the battle group.

China has no battle group to provide protective cover.
Nor do they have the aircraft/pilots to protect the carrier from other aircraft.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

A lot of those masters/doctorate programs are here in the US. Many stay, because there's no incentive to go back. But, if China creates incentives for them to return - spending money for people capable of the innovations, rather than building ghost cities, they may go back in droves.

Re: the low quality of their education? I had a Chinese student who came to the U.S. just a few years ago. I'd be working through a very difficult calculus problem with my students, and he'd say, "I think there's an easier way" and demonstrate the problem 2 different ways, using techniques my students had never seen before. They asked him, "when did you learn that?" "I think I was 12, maybe 13." My experience is that at least some Chinese had exceptional training in mathematics.

If you look at a lot of current research in math, physics, and engineering, you're not seeing names like "John Smith" - you're seeing a lot of Indian & Chinese sounding surnames. If you look at lists of top researchers at many companies, ditto.

So damn true. At my school, the engineering and math buildings are 50%+ Asian/Indians.

In fact, some of my relatives from Korea moved to the US/let their kids go to study in the US because its so much easier to do well in American schools than in Korean schools, ditto for universities. So much less pressure and much more prestige.

 

[yottabit]

Meanwhile the US is testing lasers and railguns

 

[gotsmack]

Why would a nation even want an aircraft carrier now? Can't the same things be done by a missile ship?

 

[rommelrommel]

No, they cannot. Not even close actually.

 

[gotsmack]

No, they cannot. Not even close actually.

I don't know anything about ships or the military, but aren't aircraft carriers just floating command centers that carry jets that shoot missiles? I dunno what else they do besides stuff that uses its space like repair and carry stuff.

 

[rommelrommel]

They can put refueling tankers in the air, put special ops teams in the air, put fighters up to defend the battle group at range, eventually put stealthy ground attack planes in the air, can deliver bombs from aircraft which missiles can't, there's a UAV coming somewhat close to deployment that can deploy/return from carriers, the list goes on and on. Basically they project a kind of power that a missile cruiser simply cannot do.