China poised to blow by US in science, engineering and more....

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Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
Or corporations and Wall Street were willing to accept lower profits.

Outsourcing didn't happen because business executives felt some altruistic urge to lower prices for consumers. What they wanted were lower costs and fatter margins. Low prices were just a marketing gimmick.

This sound better....
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
Jane White: Bill Clinton's True Legacy: Outsourcer-in-Chief
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-white/bill-clintons-true-legacy_b_1852887.html

And let's not forget getting China into the WTO and the repeal of Glass-Steagall. Bam.

Oh, btw, I'm hopefully perceptive enough to see this as a 'bipartisan' dismantling of this country, irrespective of the President at the time. Although at least back under Clinton, the Presidency was comparatively more than just a figurehead position.
 
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schmuckley

Platinum Member
Aug 18, 2011
2,335
1
0
It's because they keep dumbing the kids down on purpose so they can control them.
This has gone on for a whole generation now.

Common core most certainly doesn't help.
aka "Dumbthemdown101"
 

Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,039
0
76
It's because they keep dumbing the kids down on purpose so they can control them.
This has gone on for a whole generation now.

Common core most certainly doesn't help.
aka "Dumbthemdown101"

I think someone got an extra dose of the dumbing formula...
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
I think someone got an extra dose of the dumbing formula...

Re/read George Orwell's 1984. All of this was stated and predicted long ago, way more brilliant and prescient than anything Ross Perot ever said. In fact even Yogi Berra was smarter when he said, "It's deja vu all over again."
 

pitz

Senior member
Feb 11, 2010
461
0
0
For much of the past decade, the employment situation in the tech industry has been so bad, for Americans, that even top grads coming out of some of the nation's finest universities, haven't been able to find jobs. That's right, not even able to find jobs, and not treated to the courtesy of a response by the tech employers.

The tech employers are hooked on low-cost H-1B labour, usually imported from offshore low-cost centres. They're ignoring domestic talent. And in many documented cases, they actually fired experienced domestic scientists and engineers only to replace them with cheap offshore individuals. R&D capabilities have been gutted to the bone. The manufacturing environment, essential for the health of the R&D sector, has similarly been gutted through high taxes and excessive government regulation.

A sign of a dying economy is that mere paper pushers on Wall Street and similar, make far more money than scientists and engineers who produce and create real things. The average Silicon Valley engineer, even at a mid-career level, can't even afford a house these days due to how much the financial bubble has pushed up prices and H-1B has suppressed the wages. We have only ourselves to blame for the mess when the shoe finally drops.
 

pitz

Senior member
Feb 11, 2010
461
0
0
Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

Its fairly obvious that there's malice involved. Look at the huge campaign contributions that are received from the high tech firms. Look at the huge push we see every year for "immigration reform" which is basically code-word for making more American engineers and scientists unemployed by importing foreigners to take their place.

The high tech lobby paints immigration reform as a way of accelerating economic growth. Yet the high tech sector has seen minimal growth since the 2000 tech bubble apex, despite over 1 million H-1B guest workers. Adding more guest workers is not the answer -- but deporting them and forcing firms to consider the US labor pool probably is.
 

Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,039
0
76
Its fairly obvious that there's malice involved. Look at the huge campaign contributions that are received from the high tech firms. Look at the huge push we see every year for "immigration reform" which is basically code-word for making more American engineers and scientists unemployed by importing foreigners to take their place.

The high tech lobby paints immigration reform as a way of accelerating economic growth. Yet the high tech sector has seen minimal growth since the 2000 tech bubble apex, despite over 1 million H-1B guest workers. Adding more guest workers is not the answer -- but deporting them and forcing firms to consider the US labor pool probably is.

Someone else not looking after your interests does not make them malicious. It makes them human.

This is your baby. You created a country where all politicians will care about, at most, is the next four years. You created a country where the ranks of your country's leaders are not made of the inspired, the principled, the disciplined, but of the corrupt, the incompetent, the sociopathic. You created the conditions for this, you grew complacent when you sat at the top of the global pyramid, and now you're reaping what you've been sowing for the last hundred years. You have nobody to blame but yourselves.
 
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uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
5,578
2,912
136
I can only speak for organic chemistry, but I can't think of a single significant innovation to come out of a Chinese lab with regards to chemistry. They publish a lot of papers, and in my estimation, that's what a lot of these predictions stem from: people do a survey of the number of papers published by chemists from one nation or the other, and base their conclusions on that. There's plenty of papers that come out of both India and China, but the consensus when I was in active research was that following a prep from either country should be taken with a grain of salt. Papers from Japan and Germany are generally bulletproof, papers from the US are usually pretty good, all the rest are suspect.

When was the last time a Chinese or Indian scientist won a Nobel Prize?
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
Someone else not looking after your interests does not make them malicious.

Except we're supposed to live in a Representative Democracy, which means they work for us, not us for them. Additionally a Constitutional Republic places a gate with limits around the Federal Govt., not us.
 

Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,039
0
76
Except we're supposed to live in a Representative Democracy, which means they work for us, not us for them. Additionally a Constitutional Republic places a gate with limits around the Federal Govt., not us.

If they don't, what are you going to do about it?
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
I can only speak for organic chemistry, but I can't think of a single significant innovation to come out of a Chinese lab with regards to chemistry. They publish a lot of papers, and in my estimation, that's what a lot of these predictions stem from: people do a survey of the number of papers published by chemists from one nation or the other, and base their conclusions on that. There's plenty of papers that come out of both India and China, but the consensus when I was in active research was that following a prep from either country should be taken with a grain of salt. Papers from Japan and Germany are generally bulletproof, papers from the US are usually pretty good, all the rest are suspect.

When was the last time a Chinese or Indian scientist won a Nobel Prize?

While we were busy daydreaming, sleeping and watching the Kardashians....

Chinese military officers charged with hacking western Pennsylvania companies (Video)
http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsbur...y-officers-charged-with-hacking.html?page=all

Which Companies Benefited From China's Hack Attacks?
http://www.businessweek.com/article...-suggests-top-chinese-firms-baosteel-chinalco

Under the new math, I suppose those stolen trade secrets simply means/has meant cheaper steel and power plants. What has the current Administration done so far? absolutely nothing.
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
If they don't, what are you going to do about it?

I've been voting with my wallet and living a more meager lifestyle, even if I can afford otherwise, as not to front this current doomsday scenario. At least, I'll be somewhat in front of the eight ball.

Voting does virtually nothing to place power back into your own hands.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
You didn't address my question. What mandates, regulations and taxes would you get rid of and why?

Any and all that have caused US businesses to flee the US and which have been created to hinder competition by those who have implanted their people into US federal agencies so that they can continue to increase the barriers of competition against their would be rivals and upstarts in the marketplace.

The truth of the matter is we have created such a mess here in this nation by attempting to use government distort the economic playing field for political purposes that there is no fucking way businesses are going to see investing the US by providing anything else but low tier jobs as a meaningful endeavor when they can easily go overseas. Any attempts to lock in businesses will just see a mass exodus of capital flee for economically freer shores. If you believe the solution is more regulation, more mandates, more taxation you'll just be expediting the trend that has been built up over the decades of jobs fleeing the US in mass.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
Or corporations and Wall Street were willing to accept lower profits.

You are advocating that for profit businesses accept less profit, which means they would not grow at faster rate, which means they would provide even less employment opportunities and face greater rates and risk of failure. That sure sounds like a great way to ignore the governmental costs that incentivized businesses to move production overseas.

Outsourcing didn't happen because business executives felt some altruistic urge to lower prices for consumers. What they wanted were lower costs and fatter margins. Low prices were just icing on the cake.

I don't think anyone believes that outsourcing at such a rapid pace occurred due to businesses wanting to provide lower cost goods out of the goodness of their hearts however it did occur as a result of competition within and without the marketplace in the US and as a result of legislative actions taken by our government which made doing business in the US more prohibitively more expensive when compared to doing business outside of the US and then shipping the end result back for consumers to purchase. Nevermind the global trade deals done that would of put US businesses at a significant disadvantage in the global marketplace.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
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While we were busy daydreaming, sleeping and watching the Kardashians....

Chinese military officers charged with hacking western Pennsylvania companies (Video)
http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsbur...y-officers-charged-with-hacking.html?page=all

Which Companies Benefited From China's Hack Attacks?
http://www.businessweek.com/article...-suggests-top-chinese-firms-baosteel-chinalco

Under the new math, I suppose those stolen trade secrets simply means/has meant cheaper steel and power plants. What has the current Administration done so far? absolutely nothing.

http://www.wired.com/2013/12/nsa-cisco-huawei-china/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapo...ties-mobile-phones-snowden-tells-china-press/

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/w...d-chinese-servers-seen-as-spy-peril.html?_r=0

http://gizmodo.com/how-america-is-fighting-back-against-chinese-hackers-754599685
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81

Even the Kardashians themselves know about the NSA.

I was referring to corporate espionage used by the Chinese to steal trade secrets and vastly undercut American corporations without any retribution from their government. This is how the US is thanked for paving the way for Chinese access to the WTO.

And for anyone thinking the Chinese have way more valuable secrets to steal than the US, there's bridge in Brooklyn up for sale. What we need is a Chinese Edward Snowden to come forward, but you know he'll be long dead before ever hitting the surface.
 

Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,039
0
76
I've been voting with my wallet and living a more meager lifestyle, even if I can afford otherwise, as not to front this current doomsday scenario. At least, I'll be somewhat in front of the eight ball.

Voting does virtually nothing to place power back into your own hands.

So...basically nothing.

Which means, you're not living in a democracy. Because in a democracy, if the public doesn't like what the government does, the public does something about it. If the public doesn't, or can't, enact change by force against the wishes of the government, it's not a democracy.
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
So...basically nothing.

Which means, you're not living in a democracy. Because in a democracy, if the public doesn't like what the government does, the public does something about it. If the public doesn't, or can't, enact change by force against the wishes of the government, it's not a democracy.

It's only nothing without others following suit, perhaps millions. Can't fault me for trying.

But yeah... so far virtually nothing. Though we do have the Internet to freely disseminate relevant information.

Although, you might want to read up on the perils of a direct or pure democracy. It's the difference between mob rule and a constitutional form of govt. The US is actually a republic implementing a Representative Democracy, a Constitutional Republic if you will.
 

Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,039
0
76
It's only nothing without others following suit, perhaps millions. Can't fault me for trying.

But yeah... so far virtually nothing. Though we do have the Internet to freely disseminate relevant information.
Your biggest failing is assuming that what you're doing is actually worth a shit. You're not going to change things by quietly going about your business. Even if what you did had any actual effect on affairs. Which it most likely doesn't.

Although, you might want to read up on the perils of a direct or pure democracy. It's the difference between mob rule and a constitutional form of govt. The US is actually a republic implementing a Representative Democracy, a Constitutional Republic if you will.
As with all other forms of governance, a successful democracy is predicated on an educated populace with well-meaning, educated leaders. If you had an autocracy you'd be the last days of the Julio-Claudian dynasty. If you had a monarchy you'd be Kaiser Wilhelm II. If America were ruled by a direct democracy, or a monarchy, or a dictator, it would be no more broken than it currently is. Maybe even less.

You arguing that America's problem is its governance system is like saying your five-year-old can't play Rachmaninov's Italian Polka because he's got a beloved patriot-tonk.

TL; DR - if you want to make the world a better place take a look at yourself and then make a change.
 
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norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
All the brains in the world mean nothing if your people lack the will to innovate. Just as how the Iraqi lack the will to fight for freedom. Let us know when the other worlds countries starts picking up on those qualities.

they have to will to innovate when they need to for the prosperity of china

right now stealing from the us has a stronger cost to benefit ratio
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
Your biggest failing is assuming that what you're doing is actually worth a shit. You're not going to change things by quietly going about your business. Even if what you did had any actual effect on affairs. Which it most likely doesn't.

TL; DR - if you want to make the world a better place take a look at yourself and then make a change.

Ok, but what you are doing is called playing from both sides... and then cutting down the middle.

You're telling me what I'm doing isn't overall worth a shit (oh, and I agree, btw.) Then quoting Michael Jackson from Man In the Mirror, telling me to make a change, which is what I'm doing by staying informed and voting with my wallet. Although I actually have used this fundamental information (regarding the US's rarely discussed financial underpinnings) to my advantage.

If my posts make just one person read the articles or information presented, then that social change is being affected, in a rather slow way. Still better than nothing.
 

Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,039
0
76
Ok, but what you are doing is called playing from both sides... and then cutting down the middle.

You're telling me what I'm doing isn't overall worth a shit (oh, and I agree, btw.) Then quoting Michael Jackson from Man In the Mirror, telling me to make a change, which is what I'm doing by staying informed and voting with my wallet. Although I actually have used this fundamental information (regarding the US's rarely discussed financial underpinnings) to my advantage.
If you wanted to change something, you'd be telling other people to change. Not living your own life with everyone else oblivious of what you're doing.

This is like what all those weird Christians do with Facebook prayers. Basically, you're saying this stuff because you want others to know that you're not a sheep. But you don't really want to do anything about it.

If my posts make just one person read the articles or information presented, then that social change is being affected, in a rather slow way. Still better than nothing.

Is this some kind of New Age bullshit designed to make everyone feel better about their apathetic failure? No change and little change are not the only two options.
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
If you wanted to change something, you'd be telling other people to change. Not living your own life with everyone else oblivious of what you're doing.

This is like what all those weird Christians do with Facebook prayers. Basically, you're saying this stuff because you want others to know that you're not a sheep. But you don't really want to do anything about it.



Is this some kind of New Age bullshit designed to make everyone feel better about their apathetic failure? No change and little change are not the only two options.

New Age, weird Christians, what? Now you are just being silly, disingenuous and extremely assumptive or true to your screen name. If I can just get people to stop believing in the false left-right paradigm, it's a start.

But let's place the mirror on you for a sec. What are you doing to present some sort of change? Because in NZ, you are swimming way farther up stream than any American.

At least you know enough to post on an American-based forum rather than attempting to spit into the wind.
 
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