China poised to blow by US in science, engineering and more....

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Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
1,338
5
76
Although, you might want to read up on the perils of a direct or pure democracy.
No state has direct democracy. All state democracies are governed by elected representatives. Though many levels of governments and states in this world may also have open plebiscites for direct voter referendums.

It's the difference between mob rule and a constitutional form of govt.
A direct democracy may certainly be within a constitutional form of government. One does not necessarily discount the other.

The US is actually a republic implementing a Representative Democracy, a Constitutional Republic if you will.
Ahh, I see. I think that you are demonstrating a rather common failure of the US educational system of conflating representatives in government in that of a republic.. Rather ironic for this thread.

Bradley, republicanism is simply a mutli-millennial old designation of a head of state/government that is elected rather than a dictator or monarch.

The USA is a constitutionally representative democracy. As are Canada, France, Sweden, Italy, etc..... A differentiation is that some are republics and others are monarchies. That does necessarily negate the democratically elected representative function and practice of the legislating and governing governments.
 
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bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
No state has direct democracy. All state democracies are governed by elected representatives. Though many levels of governments and states in this world may also have open plebiscites for direct voter referendums.

A direct democracy may certainly be within a constitutional form of government. One does not necessarily discount the other.

Ahh, I see. I think that you are demonstrating a rather common failure of the US educational system of conflating representatives in government in that of a republic.. Rather ironic for this thread.

Bradley, republicanism is simply a mutli-millennial old designation of a head of state/government that is elected rather than a dictator or monarch.

The USA is a constitutionally representative democracy. As are Canada, France, Sweden, Italy, etc..... A differentiation is that some are Republics and others are Monarchies. That does not change the democratically elected representative function of the legislating and governing government.

This is all basic 101 stuff. You're simply arguing against facts or suggesting I'm a Republican or something? I'm of the same party as George Washington. He also hoped political parties would never be formed. In theory, the US is Representative Democracy in the form of Constitutional Republic, in practice lol?

All of this stuff is just a search away. Not that Wikipedia is the perfect source, but at least start there. Look specifically under examples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy

Direct democracy was not what the framers of the United States Constitution envisioned for the nation. They saw a danger in tyranny of the majority. As a result, they advocated a representative democracy in the form of a constitutional republic over a direct democracy. For example, James Madison, in Federalist No. 10 advocates a constitutional republic over direct democracy precisely to protect the individual from the will of the majority.
 

Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
1,338
5
76
You're simply arguing against facts or suggesting I'm a Republican or something? I'm of the same party as George Washington. He also hoped political parties would never be formed.
I fail to see how you could possibly infer from my previous post that you are member of the Republican Part (GOP)......... Nor how am I arguing against facts?

Simply because some perceived messiah states the flying spaghetti monster exists does not make it correct and factual. That errors exist and perpetuated certainly may be factual. Yet stubbornly perpetual repetition of such unreasonable falsehoods do not make them correct. Too often the USA has this dogmatic belief of the infallibility for its founding fathers. They most certainly are not irreproachable scholars of absolute truths. As any, they were fallible men, and sadly, errors of their words any way have taken on a theological absoluteness in the USA. On this point of the USA uniquely conflating republicanism with democratically representative legislators (as opposed non-representative direct/pure democracy), a great point of this erroneously linguistic ignorance can be placed at the feet of James Madison.

Thank you, Bradley, for raising these points, as its a wonderful tangent for this discussion to demonstrate a long standing failing of the dogmatic culture in the US educational system and its continued failings to instruct rational and critical thought. A founding father said it so it must be so....

In theory, the US is Representative Democracy in the form of Constitutional Republic, in practice lol?
There you go again, conflating republicanism with that of necessitating elected legislators and without any practice of direct demoncracy -- no, any government and legislating bodies composed of democratically elected representatives is not some special uniquely republican system, and thereby discounting the other constitutionally representative democracies in the world being as such despite not being republics (ceremonial (or not) heads of states that are unelected).

All of this stuff is just a search away. Not that Wikipedia is the perfect source, but at least start there. Look specifically under examples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy
Ah search away eh? Evidently you missed your article's opening line:

Direct democracy (also known as pure democracy)[1] is a form of democracy in which people decide (e.g. vote on, form consensus on) policy initiatives directly, as opposed to a representative democracy in which people vote for representatives who then decide policy initiatives.
The distinction between governance by elected representatives as opposed to governance by public plebiscites. Bradley, I already convered that in my previous post, so thank you for reaffirming the correctness of my presentation.

Now, yes, this is Wikipedia, and that entry's section concerning the USA evidently has been edited by US hands sourced by a rather poor educational system that continues to perpetuate a corruption of language. Why is that? Where may be the origins of the uniquely US sourcing of such errors in defining and recognising republicanism as an absolute conflation with that legislatures of elected representatives?

The USA has a uniquely ignorant and colloquial application for a republic. Why is that? How did such a 'novel' (crudely put, STUPID) meaning of the term come to be and remain for only some in the USA? Bradley, I return your Wiki article with this entry's sub-section upon republicanism in the USA:

United States[edit]

Main article: Republicanism in the United States
A distinct set of definitions for the word republic evolved in the United States. In common parlance, a republic is a state that does not practice direct democracy but rather has a government indirectly controlled by the people. This understanding of the term was originally developed by James Madison, and notably employed in Federalist Paper No. 10. This meaning was widely adopted early in the history of the United States, including in Noah Webster's dictionary of 1828. It was a novel meaning to the term; representative democracy was not an idea mentioned by Machiavelli and did not exist in the classical republics.[44] Also, there is evidence that contemporaries of Madison considered the meaning of the word to reflect the definition found elsewhere, as is the case with a quotation of Benjamin Franklin taken from the notes of James McHenry. Where the question is put forth, "a Republic or a Monarchy?"[45]

The term republic does not appear in the Declaration of Independence, but does appear in Article IV of the Constitution which "guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican form of Government." What exactly the writers of the constitution felt this should mean is uncertain. The Supreme Court, in Luther v. Borden (1849), declared that the definition of republic was a "political question" in which it would not intervene. In two later cases, it did establish a basic definition. In United States v. Cruikshank (1875), the court ruled that the "equal rights of citizens" were inherent to the idea of a republic.
However, the term republic is not synonymous with the republican form. The republican form is defined as one in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whom those powers are specially delegated. In re Duncan, 139 U.S. 449, 11 S.Ct. 573, 35 L.Ed. 219; Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. (21 Wall.) 162, 22 L.Ed. 627. [46]

Beyond these basic definitions the word republic has a number of other connotations. W. Paul Adams observes that republic is most often used in the United States as a synonym for state or government, but with more positive connotations than either of those terms.[47] Republicanism is often referred to as the founding ideology of the United States. Traditionally scholars believed this American republicanism was a derivation of the classical liberal ideologies of John Locke and others developed in Europe.

A political philosophy of republicanism that formed during the Renaissance period, and initiated by Machiavelli, was thought to have had little impact on the founders of the United States. In the 1960s and 1970s a revisionist school[citation needed] led by the likes of Bernard Bailyn began to argue that republicanism was just as or even more important than liberalism in the creation of the United States.[48] This issue is still much disputed and scholars like Isaac Kramnick completely reject this view.[49]
Unfortunately, the USA has a common ignorant tendency raise its lofty founding fathers upon a pedestal and thereby make their words and instructions as infallible dogma. No, Bradley, James Madison's continued confusing and still standing repeated erroneous instruction of defining republicanism is wrong. Bradley, you are wrong. Take heed of the more worldly and linguistically correct Benjamin Franklin who recognised the distinction for republicanism for what its core remains to be:

...a quotation of Benjamin Franklin taken from the notes of James McHenry. Where the question is put forth, "a Republic or a Monarchy?"[45]
That's the correct crux of it. Not some silly and uniquely US connoting fabrication that a constitutional republic negates the form of government being a direct democracy. No, a REPRESENTATIVE (rather than that separate word's conflation with a 'republic') government negates the governance being solely determined by direct democracy.

In absolutely correct governmental theory, a republic (not having an unelected, rather an appointed head of state/monarch) may certainly have a governance by elected representatives, direct democracy, and any combination of the two. Republicanism most certainly does not and cannot discount the involvement of direct democracy. Madison was wrong. His continuing disciples (you among them bradley), as fostered by a broken US educational system, remain wrong.
 
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Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,039
0
76
New Age, weird Christians, what? Now you are just being silly, disingenuous and extremely assumptive or true to your screen name. If I can just get people to stop believing in the false left-right paradigm, it's a start.

But let's place the mirror on you for a sec. What are you doing to present some sort of change? Because in NZ, you are swimming way farther up stream than any American.

At least you know enough to post on an American-based forum rather than attempting to spit into the wind.

See, unlike you I'm not unhappy with the principle of my government's function. I'm unhappy with the practicalities. Fortunately, I'm also not so concerned with its function that I feel the need to do anything about it, which is doubly fortunate because I don't actually know how to fix the problems we're currently having. I'm not under the delusion that our problems can be solved by "simply" doing anything.

Also, I post on an American-based forum because New Zealand-based technology fora are depressingly quiet and sad.
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
See, unlike you I'm not unhappy with the principle of my government's function. I'm unhappy with the practicalities. Fortunately, I'm also not so concerned with its function that I feel the need to do anything about it, which is doubly fortunate because I don't actually know how to fix the problems we're currently having. I'm not under the delusion that our problems can be solved by "simply" doing anything.

Also, I post on an American-based forum because New Zealand-based technology fora are depressingly quiet and sad.

I hear ya. I guess there's small comfort in numbers, not enough of us, I'm afraid. Someday I'd like to visit NZ and get away from this mess.


Madison was wrong. His continuing disciples (you among them bradley), as fostered by a broken US educational system, remain wrong.

If you wanted to say the US is a Federal Republic, I guess that would be fine too. Honestly, don't know what to say except, I would sue your teachers and start from scratch.
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,112
318
126
I can only speak for organic chemistry, but I can't think of a single significant innovation to come out of a Chinese lab with regards to chemistry. They publish a lot of papers, and in my estimation, that's what a lot of these predictions stem from: people do a survey of the number of papers published by chemists from one nation or the other, and base their conclusions on that. There's plenty of papers that come out of both India and China, but the consensus when I was in active research was that following a prep from either country should be taken with a grain of salt. Papers from Japan and Germany are generally bulletproof, papers from the US are usually pretty good, all the rest are suspect.

When was the last time a Chinese or Indian scientist won a Nobel Prize?

These days, doesn't it generally take 20+ years after a given discovery for the discoverers to be awarded a Nobel Prize? I agree that I don't come across a lot of papers exclusively from Chinese universities, but you can definitely find collaborations between Chinese and American universities in my area of study (biochemistry focusing on enzymatics and protein structure) in Cell and Nature papers, which doesn't necessarily mean "bulletproof", but definitely indicates a high level of significance and competency (excepting the occasional Obokata). More importantly, the news article doesn't factor in that a lot of these foreign-educated scientists want to come to the USA. The lab neighboring mine has two Chinese-born PIs, both of whom received their PhDs at Ivy League schools, who are now residents and rotate through Chinese foreign exchange students regularly (with whom they speak Chinese) as well as local students (generally high-achieving undergrads). There's not an easy line to draw between foreign and non-foreign scientists.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
This is all basic 101 stuff. You're simply arguing against facts or suggesting I'm a Republican or something? I'm of the same party as George Washington. He also hoped political parties would never be formed. In theory, the US is Representative Democracy in the form of Constitutional Republic, in practice lol?


Hate to burst you're bubble, the the US is more of a Oligarchy these days, so you haven't even gotten you're 101 skills down right yet.

Oligarchy


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy

And it was formed as a Federal Republic.

Ever actually read the Pledge of Allegiance, I ,mean really, how 101 can you get.
 
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bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
Hate to burst you're bubble, the the US is more of a Oligarchy these days, so you haven't even gotten you're 101 skills down right yet.

Oligarchy



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy

Yeah an oligarchy or plutocracy. Like I said, theory vs. practice, on paper vs. real-world, if you go back and review the tape.

So now what? Information (not money) is power. And its our only recourse. However you can see just how much our education system has been politicized these last few generations.
 
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uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
5,578
2,912
136
These days, doesn't it generally take 20+ years after a given discovery for the discoverers to be awarded a Nobel Prize? I agree that I don't come across a lot of papers exclusively from Chinese universities, but you can definitely find collaborations between Chinese and American universities in my area of study (biochemistry focusing on enzymatics and protein structure) in Cell and Nature papers, which doesn't necessarily mean "bulletproof", but definitely indicates a high level of significance and competency (excepting the occasional Obokata). More importantly, the news article doesn't factor in that a lot of these foreign-educated scientists want to come to the USA. The lab neighboring mine has two Chinese-born PIs, both of whom received their PhDs at Ivy League schools, who are now residents and rotate through Chinese foreign exchange students regularly (with whom they speak Chinese) as well as local students (generally high-achieving undergrads). There's not an easy line to draw between foreign and non-foreign scientists.
I completely agree, to that end it seems that given the opportunity, the best and brightest in Asia will tend to come here and stay here given the opportunity.
 

schmuckley

Platinum Member
Aug 18, 2011
2,335
1
0
Dang..I know how to fix the problems we're currently having.
It's called "Promote domestic production"
and "tariffs on imports"
also:
"Don't tax the crap out of small business"
EPA=needs scaled back
IRS=needs scaled back
also there needs to be accountability for local governments that put the squeeze on people.
It's not Rocket Surgery.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
Dang..I know how to fix the problems we're currently having.
It's called "Promote domestic production"
and "tariffs on imports"
also:
"Don't tax the crap out of small business"
EPA=needs scaled back
IRS=needs scaled back
also there needs to be accountability for local governments that put the squeeze on people.
It's not Rocket Surgery.


 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Jane White: Bill Clinton's True Legacy: Outsourcer-in-Chief
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-white/bill-clintons-true-legacy_b_1852887.html

And let's not forget getting China into the WTO and the repeal of Glass-Steagall. Bam.

Oh, btw, I'm hopefully perceptive enough to see this as a 'bipartisan' dismantling of this country, irrespective of the President at the time. Although at least back under Clinton, the Presidency was comparatively more than just a figurehead position.
QFT Clinton was generally a pretty good President, but where he fell, he fell hard. His removal of all technology transfer bans to Red China directly caused what we see today.

For much of the past decade, the employment situation in the tech industry has been so bad, for Americans, that even top grads coming out of some of the nation's finest universities, haven't been able to find jobs. That's right, not even able to find jobs, and not treated to the courtesy of a response by the tech employers.

The tech employers are hooked on low-cost H-1B labour, usually imported from offshore low-cost centres. They're ignoring domestic talent. And in many documented cases, they actually fired experienced domestic scientists and engineers only to replace them with cheap offshore individuals. R&D capabilities have been gutted to the bone. The manufacturing environment, essential for the health of the R&D sector, has similarly been gutted through high taxes and excessive government regulation.

A sign of a dying economy is that mere paper pushers on Wall Street and similar, make far more money than scientists and engineers who produce and create real things. The average Silicon Valley engineer, even at a mid-career level, can't even afford a house these days due to how much the financial bubble has pushed up prices and H-1B has suppressed the wages. We have only ourselves to blame for the mess when the shoe finally drops.
Well said.

I can only speak for organic chemistry, but I can't think of a single significant innovation to come out of a Chinese lab with regards to chemistry. They publish a lot of papers, and in my estimation, that's what a lot of these predictions stem from: people do a survey of the number of papers published by chemists from one nation or the other, and base their conclusions on that. There's plenty of papers that come out of both India and China, but the consensus when I was in active research was that following a prep from either country should be taken with a grain of salt. Papers from Japan and Germany are generally bulletproof, papers from the US are usually pretty good, all the rest are suspect.

When was the last time a Chinese or Indian scientist won a Nobel Prize?
That's a good point. I can only point out that nations don't immediately jump to the top of the heap, but rather climb up from the bottom. Two decades ago China had little competent engineering and science ability; now they are perfectly capable of doing all the engineering for all the products they make, much of which is quite high tech. The next step is the basic research underpinning that level, and while they are not there yet, they are certainly making great strides. Two more decades one will be hard-pressed to find a natural-born American Nobel winner. (We will however be extremely competitive in women's and minority studies.)

And why not? In America, becoming a world class physicist, mathematician, or engineer has little payoff compared to being a top level money manager, financier, executive, lawyer, or bureaucrat.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Tell you what China has no EPA you can move there I want all of ours.





This is exactly why I said China has more economic freedom than I would wish for America.

That said, the EPA does need to be heavily and continually scrutinized. As with any human entity having power, the tendency is to abuse that power. Where the EPA's interpretations are beyond intent and need, they should be reined in. Where the regulations are outdated, they should be abolished or rewritten. The fear I have with the Pubbies is that the regulations removed will be the one big business most wants removed, which are not necessarily the ones that need to be removed. The most onerous burdens may well be the most necessary burdens.
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
Yeah, I won't deny the EPA, OSHA and Clean Water Act overall as things Nixon actually got right, even if some were done for the wrong reasons. Although he also saw China as a paper tiger who would never achieve parity superpower status with the US.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
Yeah, I won't deny the EPA, OSHA and Clean Water Act overall as things Nixon actually got right, even if some were done for the wrong reasons. Although he also saw China as a paper tiger who would never achieve parity superpower status with the US.

As I said in my OP, there are many 'smug' people on here who still think that China poses no threat to the US, especially the tech jobs.

Never underestimate the corporate world and their desire to make more money by saving money, even if it's only short term with dire consequences long term. If they can get rid of you for someone cheaper, they will.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Those are some pretty selective pics. As if we dont have superfund sites and smog cities like imperial empire in Cali among others. I flew into ontario once and couldnt even breath. Couldnt see billboards on freeway. eyes were watering. Is Detroit America? naw. China looks about like USA when I was there except a lot more modern. They have wide open blue skys country like mid west in their east.

But i agree EPA is not what our problem is anyway. Minimal cost of doing business and well worth it.
 
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uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
5,578
2,912
136
QFT Clinton was generally a pretty good President, but where he fell, he fell hard. His removal of all technology transfer bans to Red China directly caused what we see today.


Well said.


That's a good point. I can only point out that nations don't immediately jump to the top of the heap, but rather climb up from the bottom. Two decades ago China had little competent engineering and science ability; now they are perfectly capable of doing all the engineering for all the products they make, much of which is quite high tech. The next step is the basic research underpinning that level, and while they are not there yet, they are certainly making great strides. Two more decades one will be hard-pressed to find a natural-born American Nobel winner. (We will however be extremely competitive in women's and minority studies.)

And why not? In America, becoming a world class physicist, mathematician, or engineer has little payoff compared to being a top level money manager, financier, executive, lawyer, or bureaucrat.
True enough, I have a Ph. D. in chemistry and I managed to get out of research because the job market is so bad. Much of it in my field is being outsourced or abandoned altogether. I'm a little worried because many companies cut their R&D in the recession and while it's starting to come back, I don't think it's near the levels it was pre-recession. Companies see R&D as a cost center, and when it comes to cutting R&D versus cutting manufacturing, R&D will almost always be the first to go. It's a short term solution that seriously handicaps the future performance and outlook for any company.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,462
0
0
What has China developed that makes them better than any developed nation? They can copy people but what innovation have they brought forth? Unless things have changed since I was in China they have pretty much zero ability to do anything other than a halfass copy.
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
A very perceptive Chinese American friend of mine sees a US/China war in the not too distant future, and sadly I agree.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,462
0
0
Before War I think there would be isolationism. Once that happens it's a matter of which economies can survive. If I was a betting man I'd wager that the US industrial military complex would weather such an economic catastrophe much better than the Chinese one. This distant future better be a good distance away or China will still have no Navy to extend the sphere of their influence.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,320
15,117
136
Before War I think there would be isolationism. Once that happens it's a matter of which economies can survive. If I was a betting man I'd wager that the US industrial military complex would weather such an economic catastrophe much better than the Chinese one. This distant future better be a good distance away or China will still have no Navy to extend the sphere of their influence.

Can you name any major power throughout history that survived almost exclusively on its military power/industrial complex? It didn't work too well for the last super power, the USSR.
 
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