China's Rating Agency Downgrades US To A+

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Trianon

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2000
1,789
0
71
www.conkurent.com
We'd be much more screwed than China, who could easily switch 20% of their production to military or cut costs to the rest of the world to undercut other nations. The USA has entire chains who would lose 90% of their inventory. And we would still have to pay off the bonds held by the Chinese; default once and no one will buy our paper. And since currently we are borrowing roughly half of every dollar the federal government spends, lack of credit would cause societal collapse.

Good point
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Maybe Congress will start getting the message.

So does this raise the Interest rate on our debt or what?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Maybe Congress will start getting the message.

So does this raise the Interest rate on our debt or what?

Not directly, but it could mean China is preparing to begin expecting higher rates on new bonds. Or they could just be paper rattling.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
No they couldn't. The domestic market in China isn't able to pick up the slack, in fact no one is.

China GDP per capita is $3K, where are you gonna find that Chinese consumer to replace U.S. ?
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
As I have asked before, do you think linking me to my "industry" in any way makes me think that you're right? You constantly attempt to do this and for what purpose? It doesn't advance your argument at all.

Simply pointing out that you have a ton of motive to have a very biased opinion and in which direction that bias might sway your opinion. You have defended what have been, imho, indefensible positions/actions of the banking industry in the past. I also like pointing out the fact that in a lot of cases you either do or should know better. For example, your claim that the foreclosure issue was basically a non-issue and that banks depriving people of due process wasn't a big deal. I believe (could be wrong, correct me if I am) that you also implied the banks should not be punished for admitted illegal activities such as perjury.

We don't "need" them to buy our debt.

Leave out all of their "needs" and explain this one to me in detail please. Our revenue barely covered necessary expenditures this year. This is another reason I point out the fact that you are a banker, you should understand these numbers very easily. When our revenue only covers basically Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and interest payments how can you state that we don't "need" them to buy our debt. I have explained the way our debt is structured specifically to you as well and then throw in our current economic situation into your explanation please. Furthermore, they don't "need" to stop buying our bonds to severely hurt us they could simply stop buying them at their current price. Again, your field of expertise is relevant because you should know exactly what implications that can have and how quickly they will show up.

They *HAVE* to buy it as a function of them having a trade surplus with them. They sell us shit in dollars, those dollars must be invested into something, otherwise they would have to sell the dollars, dropping the dollar value, making their goods less attractive.

We are already significantly dropping the value of the dollar though. And why "must" those dollars be invested in US Government bonds?

They are circumventing the natural trading mechanism of balancing by buying the dollar assets *AND* pegging their currency to the dollar. They *HAVE* to do this in order to bootstrap their own economy into a consumerist one, propelling their poor into middle class to get exactly where we are now. They *HAVE* to do this, else they will forever be a poor economy.

Sounds like good reason as to why they aren't happy with us intentionally devaluing the dollar.

Yes, they *HAVE* to buy US debt. However, we don't *HAVE* to buy their trash.

I thought you just stated above that they have to buy our debt so that they can sell us their trash. If we don't buy their trash why would they still have to buy our debt?

I have mixed feelings on QE2. On one hand stability is needed and this might improve things. On the other, it's something that hasn't been used historically and the distortions in the market may not be worth it.

I have mixed feelings about certain tax credits. On one hand we can't afford it but on the other hand it puts money in my pocket.

This goes back to my first point. If you haven't seen already, my rationalization of some of the past 3 years is far more logical than you give me credit for. I don't pretend to accept everything "my" industry has done in the last 3 years, but it's done and we have to pick up the pieces.

I distinctly remember a conversation we had in which you said that you personally looked at some of the trash that was sold and almost immediately realized it was indeed trash. In the very same conversation you said you "understood" how the people who are supposed to be infinately better at evaluating that trash didn't figure it out. You will simply not get me to buy that the banking industry doesn't understand he law of exponents.

With that said, I will give you credit for speaking against some of the bullshit that they did. I also agree that what is done is done and we must move forward with fixing the problems. What we seem to disagree on is the how, especially some of the first steps. We have had proof of blatant fraud for a while but we even have sworn testimony now and yet somehow no one has even been indicted much less put in front of a jury. Hell, we haven't even taken back the gains from the illegal activity. Do you thin that allowing people to profit from illegal activity will cause people (or an industry) to be more or less likely to do it again?

I do not think the ramp up in all commodities can be attributed to QE2, as they have gone up relative to all major currencies, this alone indicates that it's not monetary but price inflation. If you look at the issues with crops right now there are a lot of headlines about how shitty crops are right now.

What about QE1 and yes there are other reasons that certain commodities are rising in costs but I am talking about the commodities market in general. I am sure you would agree that significant cost increases in raw goods will either increase the end price of the goods that use those commodities OR significantly reduce the profit of those who sell those goods, are either of those scenarios good for our economy and who do you think will be impacted the most?

One final question, correct me if I am wrong but the Feds main way of controlling inflation that might be caused by QE1&2 is by raising the interest rates, right? What effect do you think that would have on the economy in general and the Federal Governments budget?
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Based upon what? The housing crisis?

Tell me, how many asset classes, outside of RMBS and CMBS, evidenced large amounts of defaults?

Trade receivables? Nope.
Credit cards? Only advanta, otherwise every other trust is OK.
Auto Loans? Nope.
Auto Leases? Nope.
Equipment Loans? Nope.
Equipment Leases? Nope.
CLOs? Nope.
Fleet Leases? Nope.
Rental Cars? Nope.

Hmmm....

So fucking up to the tune of a couple trillion dollars, a fuckup that you yourself stated you saw at the time, isn't good enough by itself? Furthermore, we all know that it really wasn't a "fuckup" it was pure corruption. They paid for specific ratings and got them. Is our corruption just better than theirs or something?
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
One final question, correct me if I am wrong but the Feds main way of controlling inflation that might be caused by QE1&2 is by raising the interest rates, right? What effect do you think that would have on the economy in general and the Federal Governments budget?

Good luck getting an answer to that question.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
The answer you'll get is the same one as always. That there is no inflation, and the fed is desperately fighting deflation. Ignore the fact that the price of everything but housing is on the way up. There's no inflation.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Yep, and not in just in the political or metaphorical sense.....

You must have missed the part in his post that he states our interest rates would go up. Unless we default on our debt as a result of their actions that would insanely increase our budget (and the increases would be in that damned "mandatory" part). All spending would have to be drastically cut while we still run huge deficits and that is assuming that the bond market doesn't go into a death spiral which would force us into default. It would also curb stomp what is left of the housing market and send home prices in a free fall. There is also a good chance that consumers will get a 3rd bitchslap with energy prices and other consumer goods which is already happening as we speak.

Tell me how that works out "well" for us again... I guess you could say it sucks less than being dead.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
They flood the domestic market with easy credit through the command economy and flood the currency market with Yuan while keeping a currency peg. Without the peg the higher demand for Yuan to buy products would inflate the currency, however, the peg prevents the float upwards, preventing equalizing.

What this effectively does is keep the price of their products depressed relative to everything else, spurring demand.

Two questions:

1. What happens when countries like Vietnam and India undermine China's prices with even cheaper prices?

2. Is China's path sustainable? Why not?
 

Trianon

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2000
1,789
0
71
www.conkurent.com
From the new hit, U.S.-Sino Currency Rap:

"They're not enemies, but frenemies, with co-dependent economies. For stability China's gotta export, and the U.S. is the buyer of last resort."
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
They flood the domestic market with easy credit through the command economy and flood the currency market with Yuan while keeping a currency peg. Without the peg the higher demand for Yuan to buy products would inflate the currency, however, the peg prevents the float upwards, preventing equalizing.

What this effectively does is keep the price of their products depressed relative to everything else, spurring demand.

I don't think that's quite accurate, given that it's basically impossible to buy Yuan on the open market. It's China's domestic currency, period. It never leaves the country, because they buy on the international market with foreign currency taken in with their balance of payments surplus.The pegged exchange rate does encourage exports by holding prices low for foreign buyers vs letting it float upwards, which would encourage domestic Chinese consumption of foreign goods.

Unfortunately, downgrading US bonds reflects reality. Not that the US will ever actually default on it's debt obligations. but really has no choice but to inflate away the value of the dollar to create more balanced trade, and to conceal the results of Reaganomics for awhile longer. Foreign investors will still get their interest payments, but those dollars will have reduced purchasing power on an international level. It's not the Chinese flooding the world markets with Yuan creating the problem, but rather the US issuing a flood of dollars.

Given the nature of the world economy and US dependence on it, that'll hurt US consumers, too, but probably not as badly as a deflationary scenario, where debt maintenance becomes more difficult because money is scarcer and more difficult to obtain. Old debt, like mortgage payments, don't get smaller just because your new job pays less than the one you had before the bust, and the new debt acquired to maintain cashflow in the absence of income doesn't go away, either.

Deflation kills investment, because money gains in value sitting idle, making risk unattractive. Not that capitalists are actually investing in productive endeavors in this country, anyway.

In terms of international finance, the value of any currency is largely a faith based exercise, and it's pretty obvious to non-Americans that our balance of payments situation is unsustainable. It's also obvious that our don't tax and spend more money fiscal scheme is also unsustainable. When the day comes that any of the world's creditor nations believes that a drop in dollar valuation will be more than offset by increases in the value of their other currency holdings and by gains in currency valuation derivatives, then the almighty dollar will take a really big tumble.

That's if we don't get our act together, and the downgrade of US sovereign debt by the Chinese ratings agency is a gentle tap on the shoulder, a reminder that they really don't want that scenario, but they'll take it if we're dumb enough and greedy enough to make it the best one they can get...
 
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